Did Holden Caufield need a dose of Prozac or a slap upside the head?

[hedgehog]

My kids have read Catcher in the Rye one by one for English class, and the question here is whether Holden is actually clinically depressed or merely adopting a depressive personna to make himself feel superior to others. We live in an economically depressed area and my kids know families with real problems getting by day to day. They are also personally familar with clinical depression. As a result, they tend to be rather skeptical of Holden's angst.

[raccoon]

1. I reacted to him about the way your kids did.

Somehow, that book just didn't do it for me.

[nam78_two]

2. I tend to agree with the latter

I have lived in some very poverty-stricken and broken down areas and im humble opinion, existential angst is the privilege of those whose basic needs are met...

But I don't think a slap upside the head fixes anything :).

[hedgehog]

4. Well, not a literal slap upside the head.

I haven't read the book in years, myself. I am wondering though, if Holden's real problem is that he realizes that he recognizes the injustice of rich and poor but is too comfortable being one of the rich to do anything about it.

[nam78_two]

7. Its been a while since I read it too

I rememeber thinking of it as a little more shallow than that...More sort of the defence mechanism of a kid that is generally considered an outcast and "weird"...and partially an undeveloped sense of living in a society that is overly consumeristic and has a rather sleazy under-belly(aren't themes of incest or something similar covered?)

[wtmusic]

3. Zoloft

Holden was clinical, but Prozac would have made him suicidal.

[Caution]

5. Not all depression is chemical in nature.

And frankly, I'm not sure if that really matters when it comes down to the message behind the book. That's much more ancillary to the questions of loss of innocence, transitioning into adulthood, and the value of the formal education in the real world (particularly in the frame of the setting).

Whether or not Holden was some spoiled angsty rich kid or clinically depressed really doesn't matter or that much.

[wtmusic]

8. Actually, depression is exclusively chemical in nature

It's just a matter of determining what can/should be treated.

[Caution]

15. Just from a quick reading of the wikipedia entry on clinical depression

that doesn't seem to be the case. I am not a doctor or a psychiatrist, but it is my understanding that it is not accurate to state that all clinical depression is chemical in nature.

It is absolutely and categorically false to say that all depression is chemical in nature (note the difference between clinical depression and ordinary every day depression).

Additionally, we are only given a glimpse into Holden's life, based upon that small timeframe there is no way to know if his depression is anything more than passing or if it is indeed clinical.

[wtmusic]

17. Every mood, every sensory experience you feel

is chemical in nature. So depression, just like happiness, melancholia, and horniness are chemical in nature, whether it be clinical or "ordinary every day depression".

What likely led to Holden's (i.e., J.D.'s) suffering and the wonderful book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin

[Caution]

18. OK, you were being precise. I should be as well. I meant a recurring

chemical imbalance not brought on by external factors. Something solely do to his body inappropriately causing him to feel the symptoms of depression even though externally there would be no indicator of a cause for his body to react in such a way.

[hedgehog]

10. I think you're on to something.

As a depressive, I can find existential angst to be very irritating. (Imagine you're fighting cancer and people go around shaving their heads to show their disgust with society.) I'm getting a glimmer of a notion though, about how perfectly healthy people can ape the confusion and anxiety of organic depression to express dissatisfaction with society. On the other hand, I want to say "Quit yer whining and go do something about it!"

[wtmusic]

12. Curious

When you were an adolescent didn't your depression manifest itself as "existential angst?"

[hedgehog]

14. When I was an adolescent, my depression manifested as

shyness and exhaustion. It's very hard work trying to be normal.

[wtmusic]

16. IMO when you're first exposed to that book

has a lot to do with how you regard its overall merit

I read it as an adolescent and loved it. If I read it for the first time now, it would probably seem whiny and overindulgent.

[Wickerman]

6. none of the above

Holden wasn't meant to be viewed as an individual, rather a whole subset of youth awakening to the knowledge that the society they were born into is/was fucked. The whole white upper class issue is irrelevant; the point is we can all awaken to the realization that change needs to occur - how we handle it is our choice. Most will turn their back and embrace the corrupt influence of their environment. Others will spin out of control like Holden. Some will rebel. Its the story of youth and it needn't be taken literally. I imagine that Salinger never intended it to be read as literal - though my opinion of the man and his actual meanings have changed in recent years as more of the veneer of the recluse is stripped away.

edit: Ridiculous name confusion. :blush: And I really am NOT an Eagles fan. :yoiks:

[nam78_two]

9. That makes sense

I felt it was similar to "The Graduate" in a sense (I thought the movie butchered the book)...
(The Graduate of course being much inferior to TCIR but still...a certain similarity exists)

[hedgehog]

13. I never made the connection before, but you're right.

Dare I point out that both characters seem to lack any connection to a Greater Power whether that Power be God, humanity, Nature,the Cosmos, etc. If your only goal in life is to get more things, your life would be pretty empty.

[Warpy]

11. I actually met Holden Caulfield

although he was a kid with a different name. He was tall, smooth, suave, and fourteen and dating women twice his age, although he lied about that. Nobody ever carded him in any bar. It was amazing.

I always tought the original Holden a perfect picture of teenage clinical depression, though. The poignancy was that his family were so well off but in such deep denial about their son.

There's a difference between economic hardship and concurrent family problems and real clinical depression.

[madmusic]

19. There is a lot more to it.

It has been so long since I've read it, had to cheat:

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/catcher/themes.html

It is possible that even if Holden is depressed, that completely misses the point.

My own take is that he denies Jung's Shadow within himself and is almost purely Super Ego. His existential angst is rooted in this denial and resentment of the darker side of life. That is also the source of his hypocrisy. His depression is most likely due to his failure at integration rather than the cause of his angst. He cannot integrate his Shadow-self into a healthy psychological balance, and by extension that distorts his view of the world.

Everyone has a Shadow and we can see the consequences of denying it most easily in the fundies, because they are they, rather than us. Denial of our own Shadow most often leads to an overly critical view of the Other. This projection instills a hypocritical and zealous effort to control life as the Super Ego is wont to do in our own mind when in full control. As one psychologist mentioned, Foley was trying to control himself with the laws he passed. It was his attempt to claim victory over his Shadow-self.

That inevitably leads to more alienation and possibly depression, if not something worse and more dangerous if the Shadow forcibly asserts itself in rebellion. I can't recall if Holden ever mentions a desire for violence, but if he does, this could be why. Throughout the book he tempts himself with temptation, but his Super Ego always stops him. Even normal temptations are too dark. In this view, maybe the perverted and playful motel where we see "phony" adults acting out could be an extension of his own subconscious Shadow. Anything goes in dreams, but we are too often too careful in denying that.

Just my take, and one of the beauties of the book as that it can mean many different things to different people. Maybe there really isn't a "right" answer. It's possible Salinger himself doesn't understand it 100%. There does seem to be a lot of subconscious in it.

[hedgehog]

20. Can anyone figure out just why this book is so often banned?

I have no idea what is so offensive about it.

[madmusic]

21. Because it questions everything?

Rather than conforms to everything? Plus there's sex and the "F" word, if memory serves.

[hedgehog]

22. LOL

I read the book while I was a student at a catholic girl's high school back in 1970, and I don't really remember being shocked. It must have gone right over my head!

[madmusic]

23. You were ruined for life...

But don't know it yet.

It would be interesting to hear the take on it in that context. Was it about sin?

Also, a little tidbit: some studies have found that "girls gone wild" in college were most often raised in a strict environment, such as Catholic school. Did you see any of that? But of course nothing is always true.

[hedgehog]

24. I just couldn't figure out what Holden's problem was.

I also remember thinking that he was headed for trouble by acting out the way he did. My folks were Depression babies and growing up in the Rust Belt I still had a lot of the same attitudes about the need to buckle down and get to work. Thinking about it, I would say that at least part of my reaction is the fact that my socio-economic background is so different from Holden's. I may be college educated, but in many ways my attitudes make me "working class". Looking back, some of the girls I went to school with were of Holden's class and had some of his attitudes and problems.

As for "girls gone wild"; the girls in my class ran the full spectrum. Some were very wild even in high school, others were very tame. I suspect that family background has more to do with behaviors than anything else.

[madmusic]

25. Thanks for the further insights.

It's cool to get different views from a wide spectrum.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. There's a scene in which a man makes a sexual advance on Holden, or

at least that's the way he interprets it. I haven't read the book for years, so my memory is vague.

[hedgehog]

27. I'm planning on re-reading the book, now.

I don't really know if I remember that part or not or if I realized what was going on. I imagine that my reaction was that Holden was looking for trouble and found some.

[madmusic]

29. There's a scene, I think...

Where his former teacher brushes away his hair when he's asleep. Holden panics. It is not clear if the brushing was sexual or some kind of admiration, but it is clear that it freaks Holden out and he thinks it is sexual. That's the way I remember it, anyway.

EDIT to add:

Mr. Antolini

Mr. Antolini is the adult who comes closest to reaching Holden. He manages to avoid alienating Holden, and being labeled a “phony,” because he doesn’t behave conventionally. He doesn’t speak to Holden in the persona of a teacher or authority figure, as Mr. Spencer does. He doesn’t object to Holden’s calling him in the middle of the night or to Holden’s being drunk or smoking. Moreover, by opening his door to Holden on the spur of the moment, he shows no reservations about exposing his private self, with his messy apartment, his older wife with her hair in curlers, and his own heavy drinking.

Mr. Antolini’s advice to Holden about why he should apply himself to his studies is also unconventional. He recognizes that Holden is different from other students, and he validates Holden’s suffering and confusion by suggesting that one day they may be worth writing about. He represents education not as a path of conformity but as a means for Holden to develop his unique voice and to find the ideas that are most appropriate to him.

When Mr. Antolini touches Holden’s forehead as he sleeps, he may overstep a boundary in his display of concern and affection. However, there is little evidence to suggest that he is making a sexual overture, as Holden thinks, and much evidence that Holden misinterprets his action. Holden indicates in Chapter 19 that he is extremely nervous around possible homosexuals and that he worries about suddenly becoming one. We also know that he has been thinking about sex constantly since leaving Pencey. Finally, this is not the only scene in which Holden recoils from a physical approach. He is made very uncomfortable when Sunny pulls off her dress and sits in his lap. Even when his beloved sister puts her arms around him, he remarks that she may be a little too affectionate sometimes.

Holden regrets his hasty judgment of Mr. Antolini, but this mistake is very important to him, because he finally starts to question his own practice of making snap judgments about people. Holden realizes that even if Mr. Antolini is gay, he can’t simply be dismissed as a “flit,” since he has also been kind and generous. Holden begins to acknowledge that Mr. Antolini is complex and that he has feelings.

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/catcher/canalysis.html

Another EDIT to add: Mr. Antolini doesn't relate to Holden in a Super Ego manner. He doesn't correct, try to get him to conform. He in fact encourages Holden to celebrate his individuality instead: the road to an integrated Shadow and Ego. But Holden's Super Ego snaps up, takes control, and he runs.

[pitohui]

31. it had swear words, still a bit shocking back then

for a book to be studied by freshman in high school, it was considered a bit risque

the death of innocence was not the reason, hell, "young goodman brown" is about that and no one ever banned that

it's the swear words

booyah, many grown-ups were still afraid of naughty words back then, we didn't have the fabulous internets and there was no swearing on teevee either

[Scout]

28. i vote for the "slap upside the head" (not literally, just figuratively)

I don't remember a lot about the book, except thinking, while reading it, "what a jerk!"

never did see what all the brouhaha over this book was about....

[pitohui]

30. he's clinically depressed

he has all of the advantages really and he's still sad and cynical, that's the very definition of clinical depression altho i don't suppose they had that diagnosis in those days

the book has meant a great deal to many depressed kids over the years

be glad your kids can't identify!

[hedgehog]

32. That's the point in question

Several of my kids are clinically depressed. (They're all under treatment and doing fine,but they are not cured any more than a diabetic is cured by insulin.) They can't tell if Holden is really depressed or adopting the persona of a depressed person in response to the empty culture he lives in. People have been adopting the persona of depressed people ever since the Sorrows of Werther by Goethe hit the best seller lists. I think that Holden has some inkling that his problem is that he and every one around him is so self centered. That is why his dream is to be some sort of catcher in the rye.

[frankenforpres]

33. holden loses his baby brother

that is pretty serious no matter how wealthy you are