Guns, Germs & Steel: Discussion Thread

[CitySky]

Hi Everybody! A few months ago we had a thread about this book in which many of us confessed to having this on our "list" of things yet to read. I promised to start a new mini-discussion group about it when I got to it - it was already in the stack on the nightstand...

Well, faithful DU non-fiction readers, I have finished the Introduction and Chapter 1. This is a book that needs to be digested in chunks, not gobbled down in one or two sittings. So I'll be reading for a while. Would any of you like to join me? If so please post your thoughts here. Maybe we can discuss chapter-by-chapter.

Peace!

[Crunchy Frog]

1. Thank you for starting this thread, I didn't see the first one.

I read the book some time ago and found it one of the most fascinating reads ever. I'll have to go digging around for my copy and hope that I didn't seriously misplace it.

I would love to take a second look at it and follow along while other people are reading it.

[CitySky]

3. Hello, Crunchy Frog!

:hi:

We have a regular book club going in the "Books: Nonfiction" forum here, one book a month. GG&S will outside the regular book club, sort of a "mini book club," with a slower-paced discussion for this longer book. Since the threads in that forum tend to stick around a while, we'll be fine.

Let us know when you find your copy!

[lenidog]

2. Where were you two years ago when I read the book

and needed someone to converse with about it?

[CitySky]

4. shame on me!

I didn't find DU until last year. :blush: But I've at least had the sense to stay.

Wanna read it again?

[lenidog]

5. I would have to see if the library has it

Though I am in serious deficit book reading as it is. Too many books owned and too little time to read them.

[CitySky]

7. well, i certainly know how THAT goes!

happy reading!

[applegrove]

6. I read it a few years ago and couldn't get into it - problem with

my working memory going completely caput for 4 years. I don't know if I would read it again. Other books from the time have stuck in my mind - that one just didn't. I think he brought up the germ theory of history which is quite old and I had heard it before.

[Pithy Cherub]

8. Today at the LA festival of Books, Jared Diamond

was asked a question about whether he had any thoughts on leaving the contest of southern Asia inhabitants out of the book Guns, Germs & Stell. It is one of his big regrets. He spoke eloquently to a student completing a term paper on how the dynamics came into being regarding caste systems. He is awaiting that paper with reall enthusiasm becuase it has such opportunity for explanation.

His comments on his new works, Collapse were very enlightening. He said part of the deep learning he got out of the new book was how elites were not in touch with dynmaics of regular society and their lack of appreciation for consequences of actions and inactions.

I now am the proud owner of an autographed copy!

[CitySky]

11. very cool.

thanks for sharing the update from Diamond. Clearly need to add "Collapse" to my ever-growing list...

[YankeyMCC]

9. I recently finished GGS

And I'm about 1/3rd of the way through Collapse.

Fascinating. If I'd read something like these in High School I might have pursued a different career ;)

[CitySky]

10. which career, d'ya think?

The fascinating thing about Diamond is that he ropes in so many disciplines!

[meppie-meppie not]

12. I have that book! I'm ashamed to admit

that I have never even cracked the cover of it yet. I let all manner of other books get in the way of starting this one. Maybe this is just what I need to get into it. I'd love to join in the discussion so will start the book this very night! :-)

[CitySky]

13. Cool!

Looks like you and are are the only ones here currently reading it, though a bunch of other people already have.

So far my own reading is actually going faster than I'd anticipated, because the book is well-written... and OK, 'cause I'm a "just-one-more-chapter-before-I-turn-out-the-light" kind of junkie.

Where I am now (around Chapter 5 maybe?), Diamond is laying out a case explaining varying human populations transitions from hunter-gatherer to food-production-based lifestyles based on geographic factors, such as what plants and animals were available for domestication by early humans in various parts of the world.

Have you finished the introduction? What do you think of his goal?

[Hokie]

14. I enjoyed this book very much

I read GG&S about a year ago. It is an ego deflating book for the white Christians who secretly think they run the world just because they are better or smarter than others. The real reason is chance and geography. I am looking forward to reading his latest work.

I gave the book to by brother in law to read. He is a rightie and a Christian. I could tell he did not like it becasuse he commented that he thinks that the rise of Christianity gave Europe the advantage over other regions. My personal theory is that Christianity delayed the rise of the modern technology 300 - 500 years. That is a topic for another forum I suppose.

[Tenseiga]

16. I cast one thumb up

I have a new perspective on how history unfolded as it did. Can't say I've met anyone else who'd read it before now.

Regardless of the originality of his theories, they are theories that need to be explored on a regular basis.

[YankeyMCC]

15. Related point - Collapse

I just finished what I guess is the follow up to Mr Diamond, Collapse.

Very good IMHO.

But here's a little advise. Don't read it while flying over the endless expanse of farms over Ohio, IN, IL, etc...

Or maybe just don't sit in the window seat.

As I was making my way through the last section, and before he gets to a chapter on why he continues to be "hopeful", and he's still pointing out the hard facts of the challenges we're facing in keeping us all alive on this planet I had to fly to Dallas. I look out my window as I've done on many dozens of flights before to watch the landscape and the almost complete lack of wild areas just hit me like it never had before.

[JitterbugPerfume]

17. I read it a while back

my books are all packed in boxes , but I will follow this thread with interest

[Viva_La_Revolution]

18. I'm finally reading it!

Depakid recommended it to me last year. :blush:

chapter 3, Collision at Cajamarca is horrible. He took 6 letters to the King and wove them together to tell about the capture of Atahuallpa and the slaughter of all those unarmed Aztecs. I had read a few of the accounts separately before... but all together like that is pretty gut wrenching.

[XemaSab]

19. I wasn't that thrilled with GG&S but I did find it thought provoking

But so far, "Collapse" is just BAD... poorly written, terrible scholarship, and the unholy ghosts formed by the mating of the two.

I'm about a third of the way in and so far Diamond seems like a bloviating pedant. He's got big problems distinguishing in the writing between his crazy ideas, the crazy ideas of others, and actual research.

The problem that made me put the book down (and not pick it back up again) was in the chapter on Easter Island. He keeps asking himself "what was the person who cut down the last tree thinking at the time?" However, on page 106 he says that every palm nut that has been recovered has shown signs of gnawing by rats, which begs the question: what if the rats did the trees in by destroying the tree seeds? What if it wasn't the people after all?

Diamond's whole argument would be blown to shit, but since it doesn't fit with the argument he's trying to make, he ignores this possibility.

In addition, he keeps referring to the palm trees as a potential source of wood for the Easter Islanders. Palms aren't "true" trees and don't have real wood. A palm tree trunk would be almost worthless as a building material.

I think Diamond thinks very highly on himself, and it's true that he knows a lot about quite a few subjects, but I think he falls short in some areas. He tries to make a few simple principles into huge theories that explain everything, so any data that doesn't support his theories is ignored and any occurrence that has no easy explanation, well, he'll cook an easy explanation up right there on the spot.

[AngryAmish]

20. Read it years ago

I thought his idealization of New Zealanders strange. Interesting book, tho

[Boojatta]

21. A link to some questions that may spark a discussion...

Some Questions

[Kiouni]

22. Great books!

I love Jared Diamond. He's a fantastic author and while he may embellish some points he cites great sources. Follow up on his sources and you will find some great books. I have read Jeffrey Sachs'"The End of Poverty" and I forget the author but he wrote "A Green History of the World." Great book enjoy.

[JitterbugPerfume]

23. I read it a couple of years ago

and found it to be a lot to digest too . Maybe I will dig it out of this mountain of books and give it another go.

I love Jared Diamonds work