Life after Death by Deepak Chopra

[Kiouni]

I just read Chopra's latest book on the after life and what it holds. The majority of the book is some what inspiring and is almost entirely based on hindu beliefs. While his intentions seem to be good he also misquotes scientists and in some sections flat-out lies!

Chopra says that prayer has been scientifically proven to help heal the sick!

"The results of such experiments have been startlingly positive." pps 246-247

But I remember reading in Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," that all of the studies that have been done have proven that prayer has no effect on patients, and in the studies where the patients knew they were being prayed for, actually did worse!

So how can Chopra make such a claim?

He made the study himself with duke university. (www.noetic.org) In this study he took cardiac patients that were to have some sort of serious procedure and assigned them to one of two groups. In one group the patients were not given any sort of spiritual or alternative medical help. In the other group they were given healing touching, prayer, meditation and sensory image therapy. Guess which one did better?

This is what he based his whole belief in prayer off of!

While I can respect him for trying to bridge the gap between the religious and the right, I can't help but point out he is going in the wrong direction.

This book is basically a watered-down, fluffed-up version of Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion."

On last thing about evolution, if you have time you should read this:
http://www.sgiquarterly.org/english/Features/quarterly/0604/feature6.htm

Also the Dalai Lama's "The universe in a single atom" is an excellent example of where religion and science should intersect.

http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Single-Atom-Convergence-Spirituality/dp/0767920813/sr=8-1/qid=1168591236/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4347627-6117540?ie=UTF8&s=books

[monarch]

1. How does he separate prayer

from the other 3 interventions? It seems to me that those therapies (and the attention to the patient all by itself) are probably more responsible for the positive outcomes than prayer.

Very interesting post! Wish that it had been posted in a forum where it would get more attention.

[Kiouni]

2. I reposted it in Religion and theology

thanks for the advice.

[monarch]

4. You're welcome

I posted something in GD suggesting a separate category for interesting stuff. Talk it up if you think that it has merit.

[sam sarrha]

5. just caring human contact is enough.. as for prayer healing.. there is some results, but what is

happening isn't due any dogma or even the prayer.. is is a phenomenon that isn't understood, just the powers that be.. and every religion tries to take credit that their god is the source.

while doing Pranayama intensely for 1 and 1/2 hours i had an out of the body experience.. i saw what could have been interpreted as the burning bush or even gOD.. a flow of white cosmic plasma from a single point with colored sparks twirling by.. just as was about to 'jump' the 'Guide' touched my shoulder and whispered.. 'affirm', i thought he meant affirmation.. something you say to get something.. i thought,..i dont want anything other than to end the anger, hate and ill feelings between my X-wife and I.. them i jumped into a blazing white light flowing through me, i was like a clear crystal shell and the 'frequency' was like being electroqueted..

a voice like a bell rang out and said... 'THEN LOVE HER!!'... i reflexed and thought, 'yea, but', the voice replied..'BUT NOTHING!!..LOVE HER!!' .. it was at that point i realized i was before the burning bush and had neglected to remove my shoes..

i them began a program to rewrite my view.. every time i cursed her for running off with our son with 2 hookers and drug dealer.. i blessed her twice.. i prayed for her guidance out of her situation and protection till she got out.. every morning i visually wrapped her in a Blue Sphere wrapped in bright flames to ward off suffering and danger.. every night i wrapped her in a rose colored blanket and put the flames around her and our son.. i had not heard from her for 6 years, in about 2 weeks i got a letter from her saying she had moved back with her mother and i could see our son anytime i wanted... i must say here that i was an atheist at the time.. i did not not Pray to gOD, just the powers that be.. i know they are there and it is rude to personify them or deify them.. they just..be

[Kiouni]

6. I am glad

that you told me this story. I have been having an argument..more like a discussion really with my Buddhist group on the amount of influence practice has on things in our life. I am a member with the SGI and part of their practice is to chant a sutra. So people will ask others to chant for their success in life, sporting event, school etc. I maintain that this a flawed approach to practice and unrealistic as well as a counter-buddhist idea.

The argument then becomes that of cause and effect. If drink water it nourishes my body. If I think good things about myself it makes me better, if i think good things about you shouldn't you be better? or does that positive energy not have an effect and their for debunks the fundamental truth of cause and effect?

Your life experience means to me that you changed your approach from an angry outwardly projection to an peaceful introversion of breathing exercises. The effects felt by others was second to your own change and betterment. Would you agree?

I have been stuck on this for a while. The only thing that seems to make a decent answer is questioning "self" as we find in the diamond sutra.

let me know what your take is on this and thank you again for you experience.

[sam sarrha]

7. well, i have been studying Tibetan buddhism.. Galupa, as a had a friend that was an attendant of the

Dalai Lama and the Chant Master of the Dalai Lamas monastery, he is presently Abbot of a Womans Monastery.

first, my experience was an out of body experience involving an altered state of consciousness. My back ground is Biological Research. i had a falling out with science as a method of dealing with the world, understand it, but not explaining it. i also have aspergers syndrome, and am not neurologically traditionally wired. my falling out of science started happening when i started studying Yoga.. than my friend gave me a book on Rajah Yoga.. i didn't get far into that book before i had an out of the body experience.. i tried some other things and also had out of the body experiences.. i began a quest to understand all this and it ended up with Tibetan Buddhism over a period of 30 years.

i practiced NSA Niechren Buddhism in 1970, my now wife introduced me to it.. she still practices it. i have found the original first teaching of the Buddha to work for me.. The Four Noble Truths.. http://www.buddhanet.net which is a Theravada site, but one must first start at the beginning.

my take on the Lotus Sutra is that it was about a meeting of higher beings discussing the pros and cons of the use of Magical words and mantras. and the Buddha seemed to conclude that although they worked, .. they often caused more trouble in the end, especially for the beginners.

are you familiar with Indra's Web..?? it is an infinite grid a mirrored sphere representing every sentient being at each intersection throughout.. each sphere reflects all the others, any improvement you achieve or help others to achieve is reflected onto all the others. any improvement you achieve improves all the rest in some way. i have mantra i say when i see others suffering.. i also do Tonglen.. see Pema Chodren, she is todays master of that. it was her book, 'When Things Fall Apart', i quit drinking using her techniques and meditation.. after about 2 months of meditating on my own, using Jack Kornfield and other Insight Meditation teachers.. and Rob Narin's Diamond Mind.. you can get it really cheap used at Amazon. about the time i really got into meditation i ran into Tinzen.. a Tibetan Monk.. he invited me to the Chenrezig Group meetings.. things happen if you prepare for them.. in my quest for understanding the world.. i have decided there is often no 'Why'.. you cant really make things happen the way you want because you negative karmas pollute the 'Echo' and it comes back to you.. it seems in Neichren Buddhism we are trying to understand 'Emptiness' by acquiring things.. when the things seem to show up when we quit trying and just do the right things.. the Buddha taught that 1/the world is a place of suffering, 2/desire or wanting things to be other than they are is the cause of suffering, 3/ if there is a cause there is a cure and 4/the cure is the Noble 8 Fold Path. sorry but i dont see any of that in SGI. i wouldn't normally go into that but you asked. we all have to start where we are, it this works for you i am happy for you.

to be entirely honest i feel that SGI is a cargo cult, and a corporation.. i was around long before the rift between NSA and SGI.. if one wanted to get technical, what makes Buddhism 'Work' is Meditation. without meditation there is no Buddhism.. and no 'Dharma' no Buddhism.. that is why the Tibetans are so insistent on Linage.. someone just cant decide to make stuff up and call it Buddhism.. Neichren Buddhism seems to actually have beena political monement in the beginning, not that is didnt them and not help a lot of people.. it was a good step for me.. but it did confuse me about historical Buddhism which i wish i had discovered long before i did.

the Three Jewels are essential to Buddhism.. the Buddha the Dharma and the Sanga.. the motivation the method and the support group ... after about 4 years of daily meditation and group meditation 3 days a week.. i had a revelation.. that Buddhism is a lot like an A.A. 12 step support group.. only not for alcohol addiction.. but an 8 step group for being addicted to Conventional Thought.

the 'SELF' is the chain that binds us to Suffering.. in Buddhism, Nothing Inherently exists. the self is an Aggregate of past events and future desires.. if the self existed as a finite thing, then you would never change.. but the terrible 2's happened, you quit crapping in your pants, you started talking and walking.. your brain waves raised to Beta and your sex glands kicked in and sex became a big part of your 'Self'.. you are not the person you were and you are not yet the person you will become.. so the self is an aggregate of perceptions and desires and reactions and fears..etc and it all changes all the time.. so can the self really exist and a static real thing as it appears to each of us.

the conventional mind/self is a factor of being.. the conventional mind is actually necessary.. it keeps everything from happening all at once.. but i tends to take over and fill in the blanks of perception with illusion, that is what meditation resolves.. you learn what is real and what is not

that is a quick consensus after 21 12hr days at work.. please continue the conversation if you want.

[ClintonTyree]

3. Chopra is another of the never ending stream....

of "self-help" gurus whose only "self-help" seems to be helping themselves to the money of gullible, lost souls looking for an answer to a question that has no answer. Anything he offers is nothing more than conjecture as to the afterlife, if indeed there is an afterlife, and should be taken as such. Too many people take these peoples' opinions as gospel, including every member of myriad religions on the face of the planet. People SOOOOOOOO want to believe that this CAN'T be all there is, that there MUST BE some higher purpose for life because they're just too damned important for this all to end in nothingness. :eyes:

I've read some of Chopra's books and he's nothing more or less than hundreds of other charlatans who "know" what happens after death. Why don't we all just sit tight, wait it out and see for ourselves? Why spend so much of our short lives trying to figure out what happens after our death?

[melody]

8. They're both guessing based on respective research they want to believe

God, I miss Bob Wilson already.

[Odin2005]

9. Chopra is a snake oil salesman out to sell his crap New Age BS.