Hebrew is Greek by Joseph Yehuda

[InvisibleBallots]

"An article by linguist Konstantinos Efstathios-Georganas, based on the groundbreaking book: Hebrew is Greek, by Joseph Yahuda, LL.B., whereby he seeks to prove that not only are Hebrew words Greek in origin, but that various symbols, internationally recognized as being Hebrew, are also Greek."

Linguist and researcher J. Yahuda, the author of "Hebrew is Greek," manages to prove with scientific accuracy that both Hebrew and Arabic are Greek in origin. This revelation broke a three thousand-year-old misconception. Having great knowledge of Hebrew, Arabic, French and English, as well as knowing the Old Testament and half the Koran by heart, Jahuda studied the translation of the Septuagint and Homer. He made a detailed comparison of these languages over the course of 30 years. He then published his book in 1982. The work of J. Yahuda, which has been analyzed by Davlos in the past, documents the Greekness of the Hebrew language. Realizing the importance of his discovery, Yahuda has worked hard to elevate his people by attempting to prove a relationship with the Greeks. He convincingly demonstrates that 90% of all Hebrew and Arabic words are Greek, and, had he continued his research, would have proved this for 100% of the language.. Not only are the words Greek, but the various symbols that are internationally recognized as Hebrew, are, according to this well-documented study, also Greek.

http://www.grecoreport.com/Jewish%20Symbols_are_Greek.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0728900130/qid%3D1001565610/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F2%5F1/102-3223623-7790551

[burythehatchet]

1. somewhat unrelated

but I always wondered whether Jesus was a name taken from Zeus

[InvisibleBallots]

3. a very interesting comparison is of Jesus Christ to Julius Caesar

There is one person that wrote a book titled something like "Jesus Christ is Julius Caesar" which pointed out many interesting comparisons between the two stories.

[Davis_X_Machina]

4. 'Zeus' is cognate with

'dies' (Latin for day), 'deus' (Latin for god), 'dios' (Homeric Greek for 'bright'), English 'day', etc. There's additional evidence to support an original Indo-European worship of the bright daytime sky, and its lord, as the center of IE religion.

The intitial zeta in Zeus is essentially a double consonant, pronounced 'sd-'

'Yehoshua' in Hebrew has no such initial consonant.

[nicklek]

33. Zeus,Dias

   Hi burythehatchet,

   According to my
Αριστοτελιαν
syllogistic the God of Gods has two names for the following
reason .
   
   ΖΕΥΣ
ζευγνύο{ΖΕΥ-γνύο)[
I bridge ,to connect  things together ,to put people together
(ΖΕΥγάρωμα)-ΖΕΥγος)
To couple.
   ΔΙΑΣ 
διαιρώ
{ΔΙΑ-ιρώ)
 [to divide after putting people together.......making
children]
 
   ZEUS = JEUS and if you put an S between E AND U = JESUS.
   
   Now the question is why put an S which symbolizes the snake
in the APOCALYPSE (Revelation),
   and not any other letter?
   
   Use GREEK character encoding to view the Hellenic script.
 

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. This project is as old as Philo of Alexandria..

...and utterly without philological merit.

Greek is demonstrably Indo-European, Hebrew is demonstrably Semitic.

The differences are numerous, deep, and well-attested.

There's a chance of a much, much older common substrate -- Google on 'Nostratic' -- but zilch chance that the relationship goes beyond that.

This comes up in every generation, and is always done to serve a theological agenda.

[InvisibleBallots]

5. you've read this book?

What is Yehuda's theological agenda exactly?

I'm really tired of this attacks on people's motivations - if you disagree with the conclusions of the work, then fine - why is it necessary to always attack the motivations of scholars?

EVERYONE has an agenda of some kind - theological or otherwise.

[Davis_X_Machina]

6. The author's agenda's right in the review...

...Realizing the importance of his discovery, Yahuda has worked hard to elevate his people by attempting to prove a relationship with the Greeks..

There's a long, long history of trying to 'improve' the perceived 'tribal', 'legalistic', etc. aspects of Biblical Judaism and the Old Testament by adducing to it the percieved 'superiority' of classical Greek culture and philosophy. The Philo of Alexandria (ca 20 BCE-50 CE) I mentioned was at it two millenia ago.

This project the equivalent in the world of comparative linguistics to perpetual motion, or squaring the circle with straigt-edge and compass, or finding the Holy Grail.

[InvisibleBallots]

7. so, no then?

So you haven't read any of this, or are familiar with his findings - but because this reviewer of the book says that JY wanted to "elevate his people" - therefore, we can dismiss anything he may have to say, without even looking at the evidence?

Got it, thanks.

[Davis_X_Machina]

10. You can't look at the evidence...

...because there is none, or none that will pass philological muster.

The theory's a linguistic joke.

The respective origns of Hebrew and Greek -- the two longest studied and best-understood languages in the world -- are thoroughly understood.

My degrees are in this field, though I suspect that just makes me part of the conspiract, and I have seen this 'discovery' occur every fifteen-twenty years throughout my scholarly life.

This isn't even the comparative-linguistics equivalent of cold fusion,
or zero-point energy.

This is the comparative-linguistics equivalent of orgone boxes and pyramid power.

On a good day.

[InvisibleBallots]

11. okay then

"My degrees are in this field, though I suspect that just makes me part of the conspiract, and I have seen this 'discovery' occur every fifteen-twenty years throughout my scholarly life."

I'm searching for words that won't get me banned ... is it just the nature of online discussions that make people act like jerks?

I'm always interested in history, alternative theories of history, etc. I don't have many pre-conceived notions, nor do I have any "theological agenda". Just interested in looking at various understudied works, and judging them on their merits.

But you can't even talk about this without being personally attacked. Why is that?

"This isn't even the comparative-linguistics equivalent of cold fusion,
or zero-point energy. This is the comparative-linguistics equivalent of orgone boxes and pyramid power."

I guess that settles it then? After all, you have a degree, that makes you an authority, and arguments from authority are valid?

[MrMonk]

9. Have you read the website?

Do you endorse it?

The point of view expoused by the linked website does affect my perception of the book.

From the review: "Yahuda <the author of the work reviewed and a Jew> has worked hard to elevate his people by attempting to prove a relationship with the Greeks." The interpolation is mine own.

Also check out this, and other articles, at the website:
http://www.grecoreport.com/israel_shamir_a_hellenizing_jew.htm

Endorsement by this "greco-fascist" and anti-Semitic website, and a well-informed judgement based on experience of similar organizations, lead me to believe that the book is an exercize in crank philology.

Based on your other posts in DU, you seem to be obsessed with discrediting accepted historical research through an appeal to dubious sources. Do you, perhaps, have an agenda?

[InvisibleBallots]

12. nope, sorry

I have heard of this book, did a quick search, and posted the link to Amazon and one of the first abstracts I came across.

Since when does linking an article mean you support what the website says?

"Based on your other posts in DU, you seem to be obsessed with discrediting accepted historical research through an appeal to dubious sources. Do you, perhaps, have an agenda?"

Yeah, I've posted a few articles about Fomenko, and now this. Surely this means I have a Greco-fascist agenda, right? No wait - Fomenko suggested that the ancient Greek culture didn't really exist as we think it did - that means my agenda is actually anti-Greek right? Help me out here, I'm getting confused as to my agendas?

And I for one, don't know a source is "dubious" or not until I investigate it. If I only had the mystical powers of others, to pre-judge books before I read them, and to discern the hidden agendas of authors before I read their work.

[MrMonk]

26. Pointy birds

"Yeah, I've posted a few articles about Fomenko, and now this. Surely this means I have a Greco-fascist agenda, right? No wait - Fomenko suggested that the ancient Greek culture didn't really exist as we think it did - that means my agenda is actually anti-Greek right? Help me out here, I'm getting confused as to my agendas?"

Don't go defensive on us. I didn't mean that you have a fascist or anti-Semitic agenda. I questioned whether you have some underlying agenda for your pattern of postings. I recall that you've made quite a few posts regarding this "since no irrefutable primary sources have been produced, ancient history is bunk" vein over the past few days. This includes some long threads where you've argued strenuously for that position to the extent that you seem to bait the other posters. For examples, see

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=2519#2527

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=2419#2451

Regarding my "mystical powers" regarding dubious sources, it should be obvious to you that there is insufficient time to pursue the huge number of questionable or outrageous interpretations of history (and other fields of study) that have been developed over the years. Common sense dictates that some judgement must be made as to which flag you're going to pursue (see Dante -- who apparently didn't exist -- for the reference). One of the things that I consider, aside from my interest in a subject, is the credibility of the source. That includes the presence or absence of a disreputable agenda. (The apparent deviation of a new scheme from accepted schema is another factor in my choice. Fomenko's conclusions that the extent of cultural history is 1000 years, *and that all evidence to the contrary is phony*, not only raises a big red flag, it waves it furiously about.) I find that I avoid a lot of disappointment and wasted time as long as I stick to that approach.

If you're really into this stuff, why don't you check out the historical timeline of Immanuel Velikovsky, or the connection between the New Testament and the Roman family Piso. Or you could read up on the scientific and historical demonstrations that the world is 6000 years old, ponder van Sertima's cultural histories, study proofs that Celtic culture is a degenerate form of Hinduism, . . .

[InvisibleBallots]

27. actually, I have been reading about Velikovsky

quite interesting, not that I agree with him. I disagree with your characterization of Fomenko - I think it's little more than the standard smear.

When attacked, I defend. I can handle criticism of my ideas, or criticism of the articles I post - but implying I have some hidden agenda - and ad homineum attacks - get me defensive. Guess I'm not perfect? :shrug:

[11cents]

8. Gee, since the Septuagint is WRITTEN IN GREEK

...no wonder he found some similarities between it and, uh, Greek.

And what does it mean, he "studied the translation" of the Septuagint and Homer?

Yeah, I know, he wasn't really comparing the Septuagint with other Greek texts; the implication in the press release is merely an indication of general ignorance. And yeah, this "project" is just another iteration of some very old horseshit.

[Misskittycat]

13. There is an alphabet similarity

that has always struck me as interesting.

In Hebrew, the first four letters of the alphabet

I'm always wondered about the possible connection here, because it is just too close for coincidence.

[MrMonk]

14. A common link through the early Mediterranean sailing cultures?

[Misskittycat]

15. Part of my post is missing

The second paragraph should read: In Hebrew, the first four letters of the alphabet (roughly transliterated from the Hebrew) are: aleph, bet, gimmel and dalet. In Greek, I believe they are alpha, beta, gamma and delta.

That seems like quite a coincidence to me if the languages did not have some commonality, at least in remote origin.

[11cents]

16. The alphabets *are* related!

That has nothing to do with whether the languages are. If the Chinese were to stop using their writing system and adopt Latin script instead, it wouldn't mean that Chinese and English are related. All the alphabets used to write Indo-European and Semitic languages are derived from the same (probably Semitic) source.

[InvisibleBallots]

19. I thought that the common ancestor was supposed to be Linear A

or B? Then again, the Hebrew alphabet sort of looks like a modified Sumerian cunieform to me.

[11cents]

21. Invisible Ballots, take a few linguistics courses

A course in historical linguistics, along with some basic phonology. If you're interested in these topics, just googling around websites without any context for judgment won't teach you anything; just the contrary: it will dis-educate you. I'm not saying that fringe theories never turn out to be valid, but the sheer load of obvious bullshit in the quote you posted here should have told you not to waste your time on this one.

[InvisibleBallots]

23. sure, as soon as they put the coursework online for free,

I'm there. Thanks for all your help - your links you've given me, introductory essays, etc. Oh wait...

[Boojatta]

34. Are you looking for this?

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Linguistics-and-Philosophy/index.htm

[Misskittycat]

24. That makes sense.

Now that I think about it, I forgot about the Romance languages, e.g., English: A,B,(C), D.

I'm about to go to an office Christmas party, so my mind is preoccupied with food.

[starroute]

25. Just Google on "Phoenician alphabet"

The first several links will tell you all you could want to know.

[happyslug]

17. Some Web Sites that shows the OPPOSITE

http://www.abbottfamily.clara.co.uk/languagestudy.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/61/10.html

Basically Greek is a "Centum" Indo-European Language(Prior to the Nazi's and their Corruption of the term "Aryan" these were referred as an "Aryan" Languages).

The Analysis of Semitic Language seems to indicate a clear difference between Semitic and Indo-European Languages. Words were borrowed from each but the core formation are basically difference, different for at least 6000 years (Estimated date for formation of the Indo-European language) or 15,000 years (Estimated Formation date for Proto-Semitic language).

[InvisibleBallots]

20. interesting links, thanks!

I'll be reading this, thanks. What is the oldest example of writing from either language that we have? How are these dates of 6000 and 15000 years estimated?

[happyslug]

18. Here are some web cites that show the Differences

http://www.abbottfamily.clara.co.uk/languagestudy.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/61/10.html

Basically Greek is a "Centum" Indo-European Language(Prior to the Nazi's and their Corruption of the term "Aryan" these were referred as an "Aryan" Languages).

The Analysis of Semitic Language seems to indicate a clear difference between Semitic and Indo-European Languages. Words were borrowed from each but the core formation are basically difference, different for at least 6000 years (Estimated date for formation of the Indo-European language) or 15,000 years (Estimated Formation date for Proto-Semitic language).

[Fovea]

22. Enjoyable conjecture

missing the rosetta stone, which no doubt went up with Alexandria.
If this was true, what is to be made from the difference between the Jewish genesis, and the Titanic Hellenic mythos?

[Uncle Roy]

28. "Thou art PETER and on this ROCK I base my church"

The quote above is said to be by Jesus and can be found somewhere in the New Testament. (Too lazy to find the reference, sorry.) Back when my father was bigger than me and I had to go to Sunday School, our teacher told us this was a pretty good pun, since the New Testament was written in Greek, and "peter" and "rock" were connected via the Greek word "petros". She cited this thigh-slapper to prove to us that Jesus wasn't all earnestness and solemn doe-eyed mooing sounds, but had a riotous sense of humor too. We lifted up our eyes unto the clock, and sighed.

I remembered this, for some odd reason, and many years later the thought came to me: "Wait a minute! The New Testament might well have been written in Greek, years after the fact, but surely Jesus and Peter and the rest of them were speaking Hebrew or Aramaic at the time, not Greek. So how did that Greek pun get in there? Puns don't translate between unrelated languages.

So I decided that the quote must be fraudulent, inserted into the text by someone who was trying to build the case that the Bishop of Rome had some divinely sanctioned claim to be capo di capo. There are implications here...

Can any of you philological types shed some light on this?

Roy

[Igel]

29. Disputed territory.

It's likely that Jesus' first language was Aramaic; that was the local language. Hebrew, closely related, would have been taught to him as part of his religious training; there may even have been people that were fluent in it, whether as a first language or like Latin was in Middle Ages Europe..

Greek was the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean. Not the Greek of the Greek poets and playwrights (and certainly not Homer), but "koine" (pronounced koy-nay)--a somewhat simplified variety not specific to any area of Greece. And interdialect, if that makes any sense to you.

If you do trade or deal with foreigners (from the indigenous Palestine perspective), you'd know Greek. Many Roman soldiers would have been from the Greek speaking eastern Mediterranean, and Greek was making (and continued to make) inroads into the indigenous languages. By the time Islam conquered the area Greek was pretty much the only language with any currency: a bit of Aramaic, maybe Kurdish up in the hills (if the Kurds were there at the time--I honestly don't know when they migrated in).

We tend to think of carpenters as poor folk. But they were also architects and did a lot of fine work. There were some of both, to be honest. If Jesus' father was an expert-type carpenter, Jesus would have been trained in the same profession. That would mean needing to deal with authorities that came in speaking something other than Aramaic. That would have usually been Greek. Maybe Latin.

So Christ would have most likely known Greek fairly well. Under this scenario.

The other point of view is that there was an anti-Greek bias in society that would have prevented the language from being learned widely, and that Jesus probably wouldn't have known it. Or that Greek wouldn't have been needed or available to a simple carpenter.

It seems that the difference is one of probability: if you think of Jesus as a Jewish nationalist, the anti-Greek business probably would have made sense. If you think the anti-Greek stuff was mostly bluster, or Christ ignored it, not a problem. If you think that Joseph was a run-of-the-mill carpenter in the boonies, it would be unlikely.

[Uncle Roy]

30. Thanks for explaining that

I didn't realize Greek was that widespread.

So in the case of the "Thou art Peter" quote, it is at least plausible that both Jesus and Peter and everyone else in the room would have possessed the required degree of Greek (or koine or interdialect (creole?) or whatever) so everyone would get the joke? And that Peter's parents would have chosen to give him that funny name in the first place?

If true then this seems to suggest a kind of "middle-class" origin for Jesus and the disciples, yes?

[Igel]

31. That's the one view.

But I'm not sure that the class system works that far back.

[Uncle Roy]

32. And the other view

leads to the conclusion that the quote must be fraudulent. I don't see a third alternative. Am I missing something?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. What about Krishna?

Krishna, Christ and charisma all have the same root.