A Challenge to the Theists

[Modem Butterfly]

Buy this t-shirt, or one like it:



Put it on and run your usual errands next weekend. Go to the mall, sit and sip coffee on the patio of your local coffee shop, buy groceries, wait in line at the Post Office, whatever it is that you do. Take note of the reaction you get, the stares, the questions, the comments. Then come back and let's talk about it.

If you're not willing to wear this t-shirt, why not? Be honest.

[Thtwudbeme]

1. I am not willing to wear it because I am not an Atheist

The t-shirt I keep meaning to order says, "Sweet Jesus, I hate Bill O'Reilly"--

My husband is an Atheist...he might wear it.

Just out of curiousity, why do you suggests theists wear it?

Stephanie

[Modem Butterfly]

2. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

Try it. It's enlightening.

[Kire]

82. Read 'Black Like Me'

It's enlightening, and it's safer.

[Az]

4. The point is to walk around in something approximating our shoes

for a day. Just so you know. You don't have to renounce god. Just experience life for a day as an outed atheist.

[Thtwudbeme]

6. Response to you and ModemButterfly

I am more angered about the petty use of the word "God" plastered all over every damned thing in the US---especially the money---than my atheist husband.

You think I could be MORE angry? I seriously doubt it.

I can't stand the American Religious freaks...and I am dealing with those stupid fuckers in school right now---I am a religion student aiming for Divinity School in a year.

Try walking a mile in MY shoes.

Christ...no thanks...I am plenty angry.

[Az]

13. I can well imagine your anger

And am sympathetic to it as well. It must be aweful to see others try to proclaim that God takes the side of that which seems hopelessly sullied by greed and corruption.

This exercise is just an attempt to try to help people understand why atheists keep popping up and exploding a bit. Some of us are angry. Its even more infuriating for an angry person to be told we have nothing to be angry about (not presuming you are one of these people). Thus the call to walk a day in our shoes. To increase the understanding.

[Thtwudbeme]

19. omg Az...I think I might have to go through counseling to

learn to deal with my anger at this society right now....I am not kidding; I walk around seething like Mt. St. Helens---and since I am a pacifist, I can't seem to find a healthy outlet to let it go.

I want to leave this country and go to Divinity school somewhere else...but, our parents are getting older, and we just can't up and take off---

Very very frustrating.

[Az]

25. I have a friend

Who has stated that if it were not for her belief in God and his teachings she would take a shotgun to some of these "flase prophets". She is very troubled by some of the things she sees in the world being done in the name of God. My lack of belief does not mean I cannot empathise with her. It is very frustrating to have something you believe is a wonderful and unimaginably beautiful be dragged through the mud by those that claim to get it.

[Modem Butterfly]

15. I live in the Bible Belt

I don't think it would have the same effect here. I can't think of a simple, elegant way to share your experience while here in Georgia. But I'm open to suggestion.

[Thtwudbeme]

21. NC here

7th or so generation Southerner.

Believe me, I understand your post! I was just trying to add a new perspective...wanted you to understand the outrage of this side! :)

[Hollowkatt]

3. Where, oh where can I get this wonderful shirt?????

n/p

[Modem Butterfly]

24. You can find this shirt and other fine atheist apparel at

http://www.atheist-online.com

[Damien]

138. link broken

[Modem Butterfly]

142. Whoops! Try this

http://www.atheists-online.com

[Damien]

144. that works

thanks

[LisaLynne]

5. Interesting idea.

I would like certain friends and family members of mine to wear one, just for a day, because while they are mainstream Christian, they for some reason think they are in the minority. Not in this country. I personally think it might give them a small idea what it's like to not be of the majority faith.

[mopaul]

20. very interesting idea

i agree. but it works for lots of groups, the old, my shoes for a day deal. try a day as a Native American, or in a wheelchair, etc.

but the atheist t shirt is a cool idea.

i keep my atheism to myself mostly, always felt i could discuss it here, and trying to keep to the rules, and straying a bit.

but if asked, i'll confess, which is met mostly with shock and dissapointment, and the rare encounter with others of my kind.

i like the darwin fish as an emblem to express one's non belief in religion but belief in science. they have the crucifix necklaces, and fish hyroglyphics, we have the footed fish.

but if you ever do that shirt thing, or ever have, i'd like to hear about what happened.

[LisaLynne]

26. Darwin Fish

I agree -- it is always interesting and a true learning experience to go through even just a few hours in the shoes of someone else. It's an eye-opener and makes you realize just how much we tend to take for granted about our lives, one way or the other.

Don't judge me poorly (hee hee), but I was raised in a Christian Fundamentalist sect and I honestly thought that the world was made up of atheists. Until you get out, get a little perspective and find out the truth. :)

I work, now, ironically, in a Chemistry lab at a Catholic university. There was a minor war going on a couple of years ago in the parking lot. First, people had Jesus Fish on their cars. Then, Darwin fishes started showing up. Then, the Jesus Fish people started getting those ones with the Jesus fish that said "truth". Then, other people got the one with the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish or something. It was strange.

[Az]

37. The next salvo

The Darwin side came up with an emblem that says Reality Bites.

[Modem Butterfly]

43. I must have that fish

Where did you find it? It belongs on my car!

[Az]

54. The best place on the net for such things

www.evolvefish.com

[Roland99]

44. I have a fish that says "EVOLVE" inside the fish.

;)

[Maat]

83. They also have an Atheist-Agnostic group under....

the DU Groups.

[DIKB]

7. Good Idea.

It'd be like being black for a day, wearing a fat suit, or a pregnancy belly. Experience what others do. Realize how much you take for granted.

[Modem Butterfly]

10. I have a "Nobody Knows I'm a Lesbian" t-shirt

I wear that occasionally to remind myself of what others have to deal with.

[Thtwudbeme]

14. I just drive around in a Subaru Outback

with a Sierra Club sticker on the back...wearing birkenstocks.

I wanted a bumpersticker that reads "Excuse me for missing church this Sunday, but I was busy practicing witchcraft and becoming a Lesbian."

My husband has a public job though...and it's just not worth the hassle to be funny.

[bryant69]

8. Uh

Because i'm not an Athiest?

Theist does mean someone who believes in God?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Put yourself in an atheist's shoes

See the reaction people have to that word. Try to see the world through someone else's eyes for awhile.

[bryant69]

22. Seems like a stunt

What would I learn? That it's hard to be an atheist who advertises his atheism? I pretty much already know that.

Wearing a shirt like that is a deliberately provacative act, isn't it? It's the equivilent of wearing a shirt that says "God Wants you to Repent." Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Modem Butterfly]

23. Atheists who advertise?

It's pretty hard pretending to be something you aren't. Try it for a few days. You may find you gain a whole new perspective.

[bryant69]

51. What are you hoping I woudl get out of it

Just out of curiuosity.

[Modem Butterfly]

76. A different perspective

[tuvor]

9. Because although I'm a Christian

I don't think I need to advertise it to the world like a human billboard.

[Modem Butterfly]

16. The point is not advertisement

The point is to find out for yourself what it's like to be perceived as an atheist.

[tuvor]

38. I take it you're willing to wear a Jesus Loves You t-shirt?

Honest Christians (who for whatever misguided reason choose to advertise) get the piss taken out of them, too.

[Bouncy Ball]

50. Thank you, tuvor, yes we do.

See my post at the bottom of this thread about being spat upon and getting shit from fundies myself (and I'm a Christian!!).

I've also been told I'm not a "real Christian" by these "lovely" people.

We get shit, too.

[tuvor]

56. Ugh. Sorry to hear that.

:eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

57. I live in the Bible Belt, so the effect would not be the same

But I am open to suggestions.

[DIKB]

18. Many do though.

Many christians wear crosses around their necks

Have Jesus-Fish on their cars (amusing sidenote, these fish they don so proudly, while they don't know it is a pagan symbol for the Earth Mother's Vagina)

have religious bumper stickers

And interject themselves into government.

[tuvor]

36. I don't count myself among them.

Talk to them, not to me. :)

[Az]

28. Here is the catch

In our society those that are joyous about their belief in God and Jesus are enabled and even encouraged to display their joy. Some choose not to. But many are able and do display their joy.

Atheists can have joy about their being free of belief. But if we raise our head up and announce or display our joy we are cut out and shunned by society. Sometimes we are even outright attacked.

We have learned as a group to hide. Its relatively easy for us to hide as we don't have obvious differences from others. But in hiding we cut ourselves off from finding others like ourselves. We are disabled from forming our own groups. We are silenced by being isolated in a society that depends on numbers to raise voices to a level that can be heard.

By being made to hide we become oppressed. Stress and other problems can follow from this. We are a social species. Being cut off from contact with others we can share our joy or worries with can cause very real health problems.

So yes, we don't have to go around advertising our position. But that is the nature of humanity. To announce who we are and find others that we can form bonds with. And we are denied this in this society.

[Beetwasher]

11. I Love That Shirt! You Know, I've Lived In NYC All My Life

So I have a very different perspective of being an atheist. It's never been a problem for me. Don't get me wrong! I'm not dismissing the charges of bias, I'm sure they exist, it's just I've never experienced it PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY (though I DO see it in other ways). I guess I'm lucky. Same thing w/ being Jewish. I've never experienced anti-semitism either. I guess in some ways I've lived a "sheltered" life BECAUSE I live in THE big city. :shrug:

I could wear that shirt weeks on end in NYC and never even get a comment except for "Hey! Cool shirt!"

[Modem Butterfly]

17. Yeah, it's pretty different out here

Out of the blue and into the red!

[theblasmo]

29. Message problems?

I think some people are confusing the message here. where the T-shirt to "openly" declare yourself an atheist -- even if you're not -- and get ready for the s**t storm. I teach writing classes, and when I ask students if they'd vote for a declared atheist for President, even if they agree with everything else she/he stands for, they almost always say no. The big complaint is that they don't feel the atheist will look after religious rights as well as a religious person. I ask them if atheists don't vote for the opposite reason (can you find someone who's religious who'll protect atheists' rights.) Every once in a while, someone just comes out and says "Who cares, they're going to Hell, no matter what." That leads to some fun class discussions about prejudice and science.

[Rainbowreflect]

27. I am a Christian in a very red state, but when I've written LTTE

questioning bush being a "great Christian" I received hate filled messages on my answering machine & letters telling me I was going to hell.

[mark414]

30. oh come on

what's with all this talk about "oh us poor atheists?"

i don't know what you'd call me, probably an agnostic although i do lean one way or another at times, but atheists aren't oppressed in this country!

[Modem Butterfly]

31. Okay. Wear the shirt for a week

Then report back to me.

Alternatly, if funds are low, let me know where I can have one sent.

[Telly Savalas]

79. I was an atheist for 15 years living in Kansas...

and never felt oppressed. I was certainly always concious of being in the minority, but never once felt as if my beliefs were in anyway a hinderance to my every day life. Even though there are a lot of religious folks there, nobody there asks you what your religion is when you wait in line at the post office or sit on the patio of a coffee shop.

[Modem Butterfly]

109. It's a common topic of discussion here

Asking someone where they attend church, or to share a bit of prayer with you, is about as common as offering someone a handshake. Religion here is considerably more pervasive than elsewhere.

[Az]

34. See my post above

Titled Here's the catch.

[mark414]

41. oppression runs much deeper than that

do atheists on average make less money than theists?
are atheists more likely to not have health insurance?
are there disparities in the atheist vs. theist prison populations?
do atheists get pulled over by police and searched because they are atheists?

i'm not a theist, but crying "poor me" and claiming oppression is an insult to every group in this country that does face real, everyday oppression

[Modem Butterfly]

47. I was fired for being an atheist once

And when my partner was in the hospital recovering from major surgery, I had to camp out in his room in order to protect him from a marauding minister bent on converting him when he was all but on his death bed (serious illness here) and too weak to make the guy leave him alone.

But my point isn't to say that atheists experience discrimination. My point is to challenge you to experience life as an atheist, in a small way. Then tell me what you experience. If there's no discrimination then you'll have some sort of proof, won't you?

[mark414]

60. i'm not a theist!

and i go back and forth between atheism and agnosticism!

and i'm not afraid to tell people!

my life is just fine regardless.

if you were fired for that then take that up with a lawyer. a woman was fired for having a kerry sticker, does that mean kerry voters are oppressed?

[Modem Butterfly]

69. Then the shirt won't be a problem for you, will it?

Try it, and let me know what happens. I'm very curious.

I live in the Bible belt, and it's difficult to find anyone who has much sympathy for the absence of religion, even if you have documentation, which I did. After the tenth lawyer told me that I would have a case if he'd fired me for having religion, but this is Georgia, best to just move along, I pretty much moved along. The company is out of business and many things have happened since then. It's terrific to know that I wasn't actually discriminated against. You've made my day.

[Telly Savalas]

80. Have you considered moving?

I know that it's not always a feasible option whether it be for financial or family reasons or what not, but if I lived in a town infested by hoards of assholes, my first thought would be to get the hell out of Dodge. The places in the U.S. where you don't have to put up with that kind of shit greatly outnumber the places you do.

I'm not saying it's right that you should have to move to avoid these creeps, but in the face of the current situation, it's probably the most practical course of action (again barring financial or family complications.)

[Az]

84. The better choice

Is to try to do something about a society that has such prejudice rather than just running away from the problem.

[Telly Savalas]

87. It really depends on the level of self-sacrifice...

that one is willing to choose for oneself and one's family, plus a realistic assessment of what can be accomplished.

If it's the better choice for Modem Butterfly to subject herself to that sort of bullshit, then isn't it also only fair that people from more tolerant places to move to her town and aid in the cause? Or are they off the hook because they have the good fortune of already living in a place where conditions are better?

edited to fix clumsy grammar: I'm gettin' sleepy

[Modem Butterfly]

96. Yes, but it's not feasible, nor really desireable

Why should I have to move? They're the ones who are fucked up.

Okay, in all seriousness, I don't particularly like Atlanta, but it's not feasible at this time. And to be frank, this sort of thing can happen anywhere. I'm not going to stop being an atheist, and I'm not going to pretend to be something else or keep my mouth shut. All I can do is be prepared to deal with the consequences when they occur.

[Az]

58. There are all sorts of forms of oppression

Because we are easier to hide some of them do not hit us as readily. Try this one. Name an openly atheistic politician. I can name black, gay, islamic, jewish, and any number of other oppressed groups that have elected representation. The reason they have such a voice is because they can find each other and have made strides to advance their cause.

Atheists have learned to stay in the closet. Many atheists outright reject the notion of forming groups because they don't want to make waves. This is the result of oppression.

And yes atheism can have an effect on income. The upper branches of many carreers are made or broken by social ties. Social ties that often come from church groups or religious institutions.

[mark414]

65. are you fucking kidding me?

atheism can have an effect on income? show me some hard statistics instead of made up opinions and maybe i'll believe you.

for the last time i AM NOT a theist, but goddamn i wish you would stop whining.

[Az]

68. I cannot speak to your experience

But I can assure you that one of the functions that religious institutions serve is to provide a network for people to find jobs and to form connections to better their jobs.

Its not an active form of oppression directed against atheists. But it is something we are cut off from.

[Modem Butterfly]

70. Atheism had an effect on my income

I lost my income for being an atheist. I know you read my previous post on this since you responded. Apparently you forgot.

I don't think anyone is whining on this thread. Except, of course, for you.

[puddycat]

110. social ties/connections help careers hence, people lie re: God

I've read anonymous missives from men in religiously oriented areas who hate religion, don't believe it, yet they are trapped, because if they reject it, they will pay for it professionaly, and their families will suffer.

Its a terrible decision. I personally find organized religion mere mythology (however I think Jesus was a great man), yet I go to church on occasion because I love to sing (where else can an adult go to sing?) and other social fun. If I told people I knew that I believe in God, but my God is not necessarily a Christian God, it wouldn't be good.

[Thtwudbeme]

39. Oh yes they are. Pardon me, Mark-

every single time you use "paper money" in the US with the words "In God We Trust," everytime someone recites that ridiculous pledge and says "One nation, under God," and so on and so on...

THINK about it.

[Az]

32. A story

When I was in Highschool I was in the advanced Chem class. One day we came into the classroom to find double the number of chairs and all of them arrainged in a big circle. On the chalk board was written the mysterious phrase "The Origin of Life". Something was going to happen.

After we all found seats the two Chem teachers introduced the two classes to each other. They then explained that the origin of life on earth was a controvercial subject and that as a result they were going to open a dialog in the two classes as to what various people believed.

After a while it seemed clear the creation myth was dominating the discussion. I began to speak up for evolution and the scientific description of what likely was the source of life on the planet. After a while I found I was the only one sticking up for science in the advance Chem class. Needless to say the pressure was high. Eventually the class ended with no real conclusion being drawn.

The next day I found a note stuck in my Chem book that read "God is real. Believe or else."

[DU GrovelBot]

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[tx_dem41]

35. At the same time, you put an overtly Christian symbol as your avatar...

and see the abuse you get from some on this forum. I mean, what's good for the goose.....

[Modem Butterfly]

40. Okay. If you wear the shirt I'll use the avatar of your choice for a week

Sauce for the gander, right?

[tx_dem41]

62. Actually,

I am an Atheist. I just have empathy for the Christians on the board, and in general have a desire for everyone on all sides to be tolerant of other religions/faiths/creeds (including Atheism).

[Az]

66. Tolerance is born from knowledge

Ignorance breeds fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to the darkside of the force. Ok kitchy but true.

Knowledge is not gained in a day or easily. It can be a very uncomfortable path. This is why the dialog so often dies out in society. Each side would much rather simply lump the other into some nicely summarised category and discard them.

In learning about each other we have to shed preconcpetions. Often times these are deeply held preconceptions about the other side. It takes a bit of elbow greese and effort to get rid of them. Till they are gone they can dominate one sides view of the other.

The point of the dialog isn't to eliminate the other side. The point is to understand the other side. Debates and arguments seldom if ever convince the other side they are wrong. But they do introduce them to the thinking of the others.

When we can embrace each other while knowing their positions society truly benefits. It is this embrace that fills the right with fear. It drives their claims of moral superiority from the battlefield. When we can look each other in the eye and call each other brother and sister and know each other differs on many points it is then that we can march with authority and moral certainty against the banners demanding we are supposed to be at each other's throats.

[Az]

46. Yes the dialog has to be improved

A lot of atheists are angry. Think of it like a snapping turtle. Because we cannot actively represent ourselves in society without reaction and we are constantly told by some sources that we are evil we begin to get a complex. So we snap at any symbols associated with our percieved oppressors.

The way I see it be part of the solution not the problem. Its easy to react to angry atheists by returning the anger. Almost natural. But it doesn't really solve anything. It just ticks the atheists off more and you get angry too. Seems to be going in the wrong direction if you ask me.

There are other ways of dealing with such conflicts. I believe Jesus even had some suggestions on that matter.

[tx_dem41]

63. Hey, Az!

Its been awhile since I've been on a religiously-themed thread. Good to see ya'!

[Az]

67. Indeed

Messy but necissary. There is much that has to be sorted out.

[Roland99]

42. Interesting challenge...it should go the other way, too.

Atheists should don a t-shirt saying something like "Real Men Love Jesus" or something.

[Modem Butterfly]

52. I live in the Bible belt, so it wouldn't have the desired effect

I'd be willing to have an overtly xian avatar on DU however. I'm open to other suggestions as well.

[Roland99]

59. So, drive for a day to someplace more liberal

Or, hang out in places where Christians typically don't (bars, strip clubs, etc.)

[Modem Butterfly]

71. I live in Atlanta

There's not really anyplace to drive to, feasibly, where people are more liberal. But, I'm planning a trip to NYC next fall. I'd be happy to wear such a shirt then if you're willing to try my challenge. How does that sound?

[Roland99]

72. Well, I'm already an athiest...wouldn't do me much good.

I was just offering up a "fair and balanced" option. :D


BTW, Atlanta has plenty of "gentlemen's clubs". I....uh.....heard from a friend. Yeah....that's the ticket!

[Modem Butterfly]

73. Yeah, "Southern Hospitality" is what we're known for.

I don't think that wearing an overtly pro-Xian shirt in such a club would even raise an eyebrow. Maybe if you had a Bible and were attempting to deliver a sermon, but I couldn't do that and keep a straight face. I don't know many who could.

[Bouncy Ball]

45. Wouldn't bother me one bit to wear it,

but I'm not an atheist. Wouldn't that be dishonest? And when people ask me questions (if they do, I have a feeling all I'd get is looks), I could PLAY the part of an atheist, but I don't know what that would prove.

I think I already have an idea of how hard it is for atheists, especially around here (the South). My best friend is one, and I am a VERY liberal Christian. Around here, being a Christian who studies Buddhism is akin to sacrilege as it is. I get a lot of shit from fundies. I fling it right back at 'em, with a smile, but I still get it.

And I work very closely with a local Atheists group who works on separation of church and state issues. I have stood with them at protests (it's lovely being spit on by "fellow" Christians), I have worked with them on policy issues they are trying to work on with local school boards, city councils, state legislature, etc. Separation of church and state is a BIG issue to me.

[Roland99]

48. It would give you a perspective into the "holier-than-thou" attitudes

that many atheists see in the "preachy" type of Christians.

[tuvor]

55. I think Bouncy's seen it firsthand

[Bouncy Ball]

61. You're talking to the wrong person, then.

Is this microphone on? I've gotten TONS of shit from "preachy" Christians. Sometimes I don't know WHO pisses them off more, atheists or us "WRONG" Christians.

When I demonstrated with a local atheist group who works on issues of separation of church and state I had a guy with a WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) shirt come up and SPIT on me and tell me I was going to hell!

Does anyone here actually think you have to be an atheist to get shit from these people???

I'm on the side of religious freedom and TOTAL separation of church and state. I don't talk about my religious beliefs to ANYONE unless they ask me directly, and even then, I only answer the question asked. Furthermore, I don't go around asking people questions about their beliefs.

If any atheist here wants to wear that shirt, and I see you with it on and you are getting shit, I guaran-damn-tee you I am going to come right over where you are and give the person giving you shit a HUGE piece of my mind.

But I already KNOW how they are treated (I've seen my best friend treated like crap by responding to a question about her beliefs with "I'm an atheist."). I already HAVE empathy. I'm already ON your side!

Sheesh.

[Bouncy Ball]

64. What would be MORE eye-opening

(for the person involved) is to get a "preachy" Christian to wear that shirt.

For me to wear it, well, I wouldn't be surprised one bit at any reaction I got. I'd be half-expecting it, anyway. I'm not a "good" Christian already because I don't have a stupid silver FISH on the back of my car.

[Selwynn]

77. You're absolutely right, and these have been my experiences as well

[Az]

49. Some people have already

Performs the mental exercise of walking around in anothers shoes. The point is to try to reach those that haven't tried such a mental exercise. The point is to increase understanding.

[Maat]

85. Right there with you, Bouncy Ball.

I coordinate a Separation of Church and State (Minigroup if you will) group through Democracy for America, and I've had those opposing our efforts assume that I'm not a person of faith.

I'm going to flamed for this, but for 30 years (ages 15-45), I was an agnostic.

Then I found a great faith, that shares much with Unitarian-Universalism (it is the Church of Religious Science), and I've experienced more hostility since I do have a faith, than when I didn't have a faith! I'm amazed at it. I'm out here in SoCal. I'm rejected by the atheists and I get it from the Fundies (on the other side of the spectrum).

We all have different experiences, I guess.

As AZ knows, I respect people of all faiths and creeds and belief systems equally.

My husband labels himself 'an atheist.' When he joins up the term 'myth' (or 'superstition') with people of faith (he really means the Radical Religious Right), I correct him.

Hey, we are progressive people of faith - not everyone is a RRR (Radical Religious Righter - e.g. member of the far right of the Southern Baptist Convention).

[Bouncy Ball]

53. On thinking about it,

I wish more atheists would wear shirts like that. I want more of these fundies to stop thinking they rule things or that there are no atheists around.

Or something. I encourage the atheists I know to be "out and proud" LOL.

They have every right to believe as they wish. We all do. I just wish fundies would get their noses out of the GOVERNMENT!!!!!

[Deep13]

74. Where can I get atheist checks?

I have a new bank an need checks printed. There are plenty of religious and commercial image checks out there. As a practicing atheist, I want to find some checks that reflect my values and lack of beliefs.

[Modem Butterfly]

75. I don't know about specifically atheist checks

But my bank allows you to add a message to the top of each check you write. We have a quote by Bertrand Russell on ours: "Hands that help are better than lips that pray,"

[Maat]

86. That's a good one, Modem Butterfly.

I took it down.

[Zynx]

114. I hate it when people express themselves on their checks.

As someone who has worked as I cashier I can speak to this, I really don't like being hit with political and social statements when I am not asking for it. I don't care if it's a fundie or a Communist, I don't want to hear it. People take freedom of expression far too far and drive it to the point of freedom to annoy the crap out of other people.

[Selwynn]

78. I will if you will: turn about is fairplay

Try being a man, putting on mascara and blue eye liner, fabulous lipstick, spakley blue nail polish, a spikey collar, a green velet shirt, black pants and boots - and walk aroung my home town.

Try wearing a shirt that says, "I'm a Gay Christian!"

Try wearing a shirt that says, "Jesus was a Liberal!"

Try wearing a shirt that says, "Resuce the Bible from Fundamentalism"

The people who hate you don't hate you because you're an atheist. They hate you becuase you are not them and do not walk in lock-step with the authority they ascribe to themselves. They hate anyone or anything that does not conform to their point of view, including atheists and a lot of other people.

Try walking a mile in any of the people above's shoes and discover that they are no less despised than you. In fact there's actually one group of people these "chrisitans" hate more than atheists: professing "Christians" who disagree with them. Oh, and gay people. :shrug:

Sel

[Modem Butterfly]

90. I have a shirt that says "Nobody knows I'm a lesbian"

I'm not a lesbian, but I wear it periodically to remind myself of what so many people have to deal with.

[Selwynn]

93. Yes, people that go daring others to confront them do deal with a lot

I asked my friend, who describes himself as an "agnostic atheist" what he thought about this thread the other day. And he told me that it seemed a little silly to him.

He said that someone who goes around with some bold assertion or challenge on their chest and then takes on the role of a martyr when they actually get challenged about it seems pretty silly.

He went on to say that it seemed no different to him than if he was to were a "Kerry: 2004!" shirt during the elections, or a "Fuck Bush!" shirt. It would generate support from those who agree and criticism from those who don't. Big deal, he said. That's true of any assertive statement you want to wear.

This is precisely my point. These people don't just hate atheists. They hate everyone who disagrees with them or challenges their authority. And frankly, they hate those who disagree with them and profess the same faith as they do most of all, yes even more than you.

I don't need to be reminded of what so many people have to deal with. I can't escape awareness of what so many people have to deal with, becuase I deal with it on a regular basis, and empathize deeply with the feeling. But Atheists are not unique or beautiful snowflakes in this sense. If you want to talk about how harassed and persecuted atheists are by intolerant closed minded religious people that often "feel" dominant in America, as a reguar recipiant of their harassment, threats and comdemnation, I open my arms to you and say, "welcome to the club - we all got T-shirts."

Sel

[Az]

94. The trouble

Is that religious believers are allowed and unharrassed to express their joy in public of their belief. They can wear teeshirts proclaiming their love of Jesus or God without being harrassed. But the mere announcement of one's lack of belief is seen as a dare or a challenge. Why should it be so. Why cannot my announcement through apparel that I am not a believer merely be a call out to my fellow nonbelievers that they are not alone?

Instead it is percieved as a challenge to believers. And they often take that challenge up to assail, confront, or otherwise let it be known that they think we are beneath contempt for expressing our lack of belief.

A Christian wearing a cross or teeshirt expressing their belief is seen as sharing their belief with others. That some can't see a teeshirt such as the one above as a statement of joy rather than a challenge goes directly to the problem.

[Selwynn]

97. First of all, that's not true.

..as I know well from personal experience. I have been harassed for expressing my joy in public of my belief. I've made statements, written newspaper articles, put bumper stickers on my car in which I've express my belief and I've suffered the consequence of speaking out.

You are totally detached from reality if you seriously believe that someone expressing belief meets with no condemnation, while someone expression lack of belief does. If someones beliefs run contrary to what fundamentalists right-wing evangelical dogmatists believe, you can be damn sure they will be treated exactly like the atheist.

My argument is not that right wing fundamentalists Christians don't have it easier than the rest of us. They can walk around with all kinds of stuff on their shirts and not deal with much - because people like us very often don't care and aren't going to harass anyone for that.

My point has been that "these people," i.e. the kind of right wing fundamentalists that are going around "harassing" people from their belief aren't picking on "atheists" alone - they are attacking anyone who they disagree with, and in fact see far greater threats to them than "atheists" anyway. Which returns me to my point, wear a shirt that says "I'm a Gay Christian!" and see how that works out for you.

Statement of joy or not is irrelevant. When you assert ANYTHING, whether joyfully or defensively, you invite a response. When you say, "hello, I'm an atheist" you open yourself up to getting a response back. When I wear "I'm a Gay Christian" on my chest as an expression of joy, that doesn't change the fact that I'm making an assertion - an assertion which I know full well not everyone shares or agrees with, and I don't care. But I'm also not surprised when I do get challenged over my assertion. The same is true when I put my "Re-Defeat Bush 04" sticker on my car in Idaho.

[Az]

103. Well thats certainly cause fo discussion

My perception of society suggests that someone wearing a shirt expressing their belief in god or such is unlikely to be met with much if any oppression. My direct experience with expressing my atheism has met with not only oppression but vandalism and destruction of my property.

This simply serves to show that both sides of this issue could do well to listen to what the other side has to say. So in fairness perhaps you could describe the kind of oppression you as a believer suffer from in this society when you express your beliefs.

[Selwynn]

137. Sure, I can do that ---

Yes, I can describe the kind of things I and my family have faced. I have said this elsewhere ones before, so I hope I don't start getting accused of being self-fixated or something...

My father was a pastor for 25 years. About ten years ago, he and my mother really began to experience an real change of heart. I can't go into all the details becuase it would just be too long, but they came to beleieve that loving people and practicing compassionate action to meet needs in the local community should be the only real business of the church and of "christians." They rejected much of the legalism and other kinds of authoritarian and oppressive attitudes of conversative evangelical churches. They tried to share this message.

The result that the church began to try to come up with reasons to accuse my family of wrong doing. They found technical ways to divert money in all kinds of different directions so that there was no money to pay my father. My family lost their house, went bankrupt, and lost everything - but not before their former best friends accused my mother and father of the most embarassing and humiliating things, which I'm just not going to go into, and hauled our family up before the church. One night I came home and found my dad in the closet on the floor, sobbing uncontrollably. I had never seen my father like that ever before. All I remember his holding my father in my arms in a ball as he wept.

Eventually my family was forced to leave the church. They only stayed so long becuase my dad had such a strong desire to shrae his attitudes about compassion and loving activity in the community being more important than fundamentalistic dogma. But eventually, they lost their home, all of their belongings (which they sold to buy food) and everything. I remember times where we had no money and no food, and our family share a bowl of Uncle Ben's rice as our meal for the day. My dad had had a stroke already and was in poor health, and had never done any other kind of work, so it was hard to find a job. I worked but was in college too and didn't make much to spare.

Finally my parents had to move in with my grandma. They still live there till this day, in that basically one room apartment - bankrupt with nothing other than the things I provide when I can. In my life personally, I was run out of a church and labeled a "heretic." I was cornered in my room one day in college by "Christians" who decided to have an "intervention" with me - one of those things where they basically hold you prisoner while the yell at you and beat on your pschie as they try to coerce you into "repenting" or whatever. This is all because I didn't have the same religious beliefs that they did.

I was walking through a park one day talking a little loudly about my religious beliefs with someone and I must have said something particularly controversial becuase a man a barely knew charged up to me screaming in my face that I was liar and a false teacher and needed to repent. I admit that it made me angy, and I yelled back, and he attacked me and beat me. I wish I could say I was a real tought guy and a scrapper, but I'm not. I basically got the crap kicked out of me.

I lost most of my old friends from church (long ago) or school because of my beliefs. And I have trouble making new close friends because its hard not to talk about the things that matter to me, like my beliefs. But if I do, then other religious christians almost always walk away from me, and most atheists or non-believers have the same reaction simply becuase I have religious beiefs, and they usually assume I'm just a other "crazy christian" anyway.

These are some of the examples of the thigns I've experienced because of my beliefs.

[Telly Savalas]

113. So if I wore a shirt that said "Jesus loves gays too"...

everyone would be cool with it and I wouldn't be harassed?

[Modem Butterfly]

143. That's interesting

I imagine that, depending on where you are, at least half of the people would think you were selling some sort of ex-gay ministry. You would probably get a good bit of approval from these folks. Of course, not everyone would be so clueless.

That would be interesting to try.

[Modem Butterfly]

95. Wearing a t-shirt = "daring to confront"?

I asked my friend, who describes himself as an "agnostic atheist" what he thought about this thread the other day.

"I asked my Jewish friend what she thinks about Condi's visit to Europe and..."

"I asked my black friend what he thinks about Armstrong Williams..."

Why drag someone else into it? Do you feel that your own opinions are somehow lacking because you aren't an atheist?

He said that someone who goes around with some bold assertion or challenge on their chest and then takes on the role of a martyr when they actually get challenged about it seems pretty silly.

Well, it's a good thing I haven't proposed that then, isn't it?

Being an atheist in this society is more difficult than a theist can imagine, regardless of what your alleged friend might have said. I suspect people realize this, since so far, only one person has actually volunteered to wear the shirt, providing I provide it.

That's true of any assertive statement you want to wear.

I disagree. I have yet to see someone wearing a Clint Black concert t-shirt being lectured by someone on the virtues of R&B. I've never heard of someone being refused service for wearing a Yankees shirt and as long as I've had a "Go ARMY!" sticker on my Volvo, no one has tried to remove it.

[Selwynn]

98. Answer:

Why drag someone else into it? Do you feel that your own opinions are somehow lacking because you aren't an atheist?

Actually yes. Frankly, I thought your post was pretty silly, but I thought to myself, "perhaps I am unfairly biased in some way, or don't understand the perspective well enough" and since I am friends with a bunch of atheists, I figured I would ask them about it.


I disagree. I have yet to see someone wearing a Clint Black concert t-shirt being lectured by someone on the virtues of R&B. I've never heard of someone being refused service for wearing a Yankees shirt and as long as I've had a "Go ARMY!" sticker on my Volvo, no one has tried to remove it.


You've lived a pretty sheltered life then, haven't you? There are plenty of accounts of fights breaking out over disagreement about someone's favorite sports team. Back in college a doormate of my punched a guy in the face for wearing a Yankees shirt. I've been lectured on more than one occasion for music paraphernalia that wasn't to someone else's taste. And I've had bumper stickers ripped off my car.

All of this is actually an avoidance of the real point. The real point is this:

The people who hate you don't hate you because you're an atheist. They hate you because you are not them and do not walk in lock-step with the authority they ascribe to themselves. They hate anyone or anything that does not conform to their point of view, including atheists and a lot of other people.

I don't need to be reminded of what so many people have to deal with. I can't escape awareness of what so many people have to deal with, because I deal with it on a regular basis, and empathize deeply with the feeling. But Atheists are not unique or beautiful snowflakes in this sense. If you want to talk about how harassed and persecuted atheists are by intolerant closed minded religious people that often "feel" dominant in America, as a regular recipient of their harassment, threats and condemnation, I open my arms to you and say, "welcome to the club - we all got T-shirts."

Sel

[Modem Butterfly]

99. I'm interested in YOUR opinion

Why drag someone else into it? Do you feel that your own opinions are somehow lacking because you aren't an atheist?

Actually yes.

That's just sad.

Frankly, I thought your post was pretty silly, but I thought to myself, "perhaps I am unfairly biased in some way, or don't understand the perspective well enough" and since I am friends with a bunch of atheists, I figured I would ask them about it.

You know, if you think something someone else posts is silly but don't belong to a group that someone else belongs to, it's okay to tell them that. Really. Your opinons are good enough on their own.

I can respect someone that thinks I'm wrong. LOTS of people think I'm wrong. But I can't respect someone that has to hide behind someone else. If you had told me that you thought my post was silly, I could deal with that. But now I'm left with the sneaking suspicion that you thought my post was silly and decided to just make up a conversation with a friend who, for all I know, may very well be imaginary as well. And that's just... well, I can't come up with another word. That's just sad.

There are plenty of accounts of fights breaking out over disagreement about someone's favorite sports team.

Oh sure. But then, that's not what I said, was it?

I don't need to be reminded of what so many people have to deal with.

So what happend to "I will if you will"? Shouldn't you go back and edit your original reply to say instead, "I won't because I don't need to,"

Personally, I think everyone needs to be more understanding of everyone else. I don't think we can ever be too cognizant of other people's experiences, and if there were some small way to share in the experience of being another gender or another race, I would do that, too. If you don't feel the need to, well, okay. Then that's good enough for me.

[Selwynn]

100. Response

That's just sad.


I don't think it's at all. It's always good to question your own opinions, and think about your biases. It does not seem unreasonable to me to say to myself "well this is what I think, but then again, I'm not an atheist - perhaps the perspective of some other atheists my help my clarity of thought.

What's sad is to have the opinion that we shouldn't examine our own thinking in that way.


You know, if you think something someone else posts is silly but don't belong to a group that someone else belongs to, it's okay to tell them that. Really. Your opinions are good enough on their own.


It's always good and healthy to examine our own perspectives, think about our potential biases and solicit opinions from others who might share a different perspective. If I want to do a "gut check" on an opinion by talking to others about it, especially others who come from a different perspective - that's healthy.


f you had told me that you thought my post was silly, I could deal with that. But now I'm left with the sneaking suspicion that you thought my post was silly and decided to just make up a conversation with a friend who, for all I know, may very well be imaginary as well. And that's just... well, I can't come up with another word. That's just sad.


What you choose to infer is your choice. You're declaration that "its just sad" is based on your choice to believe I am not telling the truth. I can't do anything about that. That's your choice.

Oh sure. But then, that's not what I said, was it?

What you said was: "I've never heard of someone being refused service for wearing a Yankees shirt." While I haven't personally experienced a denial of service for wearing the shirt of a particular sports team, I have witnessed a person getting punched in the face for wearing a Yankees shirt. That seems to apply.

I don't need to be reminded of what so many people have to deal with.

So what happened to "I will if you will"? Shouldn't you go back and edit your original reply to say instead, "I won't because I don't need to,"


Actually that is taken out of context. What I actually said was, I don't need to be reminded of what so many people have to deal with. I can't escape awareness of what so many people have to deal with, because I deal with it on a regular basis, and empathize deeply with the feeling. But then of course, you know that and chose to ignore it.


Personally, I think everyone needs to be more understanding of everyone else. I don't think we can ever be too cognizant of other people's experiences


I agree. But in this case, I am already very cognizant of the experience of harassment for affirmations of belief or lack of belief. What is most important to me is "cognizance" of the fact that these people don't just hate atheists. They hate everyone who disagrees with them or challenges their authority. It's a big club of which you and I are likely members. Let's agree that it sucks and that it is a shameful way to act, support each other when we need it, and move on.

Sel

[Modem Butterfly]

101. You simply have not experienced what you have not experienced

It's always good to question your own opinions, and think about your biases.

Unless one asks you to put yourself physically in another's place, of course.

It does not seem unreasonable to me to say to myself "well this is what I think, but then again, I'm not an atheist - perhaps the perspective of some other atheists my help my clarity of thought.

Yet you didn't provide your own opinion until pressed. Instead, you conveyed the opinion of one friend (in your original post) whom you asked the otherday (again, per your original post). That's not questioning your own opinions, that's parroting someone elses. And that's sad.

I've never heard of someone being refused service for wearing a Yankees shirt." While I haven't personally experienced a denial of service for wearing the shirt of a particular sports team,

Thank-you.

What I actually said was, I don't need to be reminded of what so many people have to deal with. I can't escape awareness of what so many people have to deal with, because I deal with it on a regular basis, and empathize deeply with the feeling.

I think it's insulting to equate your experience with mine. It belittles both sets of experience and it demeans both of us. I would never dream of telling you that I wouldn't walk a mile in your shoes, because as an atheist woman of color I already know what you're dealing with, because it's simply untrue. I don't know. I can't know.

But I can try, in a small way, to experience the world the way you do for a few hours. I can try to understand your experience better, even as only a tourist. It might make me a better person.

Or, I can shut down and say, "All oppression is the same," and refuse any efforts at understanding. I can hide behind my gay Xian friends and say, "My friend who's an MCC minister says I don't have to because I'm a female atheist of color,".

[Selwynn]

105. Response:

Unless one asks you to put yourself physically in another's place, of course.


Wearing a shirt that says "atheist" does not give me any new information that wearing a shirt that says "I'm a gay Christian" does not already give me. It doesn't give me any new information if I already experience the ostracizing and negative attitudes, and if I already have friends with home I live my life who are atheists. That's my point. The point is certainly not that I have a problem wearing a T-shirt. My point is it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.

I'm well aware of the persecution and harassment experienced by minorities of all kinds. And that's my point. What atheists experience is neither new or unique to atheists. It is unfortunate and disappointing that persons holding minority opinions in society or in their particular contexts are likely to experience harassment by the majority. But it happens. I would rather spend more time supporting each other against a common source of harassment and discrimination.


I've never heard of someone being refused service for wearing a Yankees shirt." While I haven't personally experienced a denial of service for wearing the shirt of a particular sports team,

Thank-you.


You're welcome - of course you totally ignore the very next sentence which said, I have however personally witnessed a guy getting punched in the face for wearing a Yankees jersey. Its the same difference.


I think it's insulting to equate your experience with mine. It belittles both sets of experience and it demeans both of us. I would never dream of telling you that I wouldn't walk a mile in your shoes, because as an atheist woman of color I already know what you're dealing with, because it's simply untrue. I don't know. I can't know.

But I can try, in a small way, to experience the world the way you do for a few hours. I can try to understand your experience better, even as only a tourist. It might make me a better person.

Or, I can shut down and say, "All oppression is the same," and refuse any efforts at understanding. I can hide behind my gay Xian friends and say, "My friend who's an MCC minister says I don't have to because I'm a female atheist of color,".


I pretty much don't agree with any of this. First of all, I don't think its insulting at all for you to relate - not equate - your experience to mine. Its good to understand the experiences that we do actually have in common. In fact understanding commonalities and recognizing that we often face a common persecutor is important. It helps us embrace each other as allies - which is what we are or ought to be - rather than adversaries.

I don't care how often I try to empathize and "experience" what someone else experiences. In the end you're right I will never literally be the other person and I will never literally "experience" exactly what it feels like to experience what and how they experience. But that doesn't mean that our experiences are so dissimilar that there is no commonality. I can and do empathize and relate to your experiences because my own experiences have been similar - not identical, but similar. The experiences of some of my friends have been similar. Not identical, but similar.

I don't feel that putting on a shirt that says "atheist" does much of anything to empathizes with anything other than the fact that if you put on a shirt that makes a statement that is out of the mainstream, you're probably going to get flack for it. That really doesn't help me understand what its like to live your life. It just helps me understand what I already understand - that generically speaking, the life of a minority is fraught with a lot of obstacles.

Its one thing to for a poor, black woman to go to a rich white man and say, "you need to try walking a mile in my shoes to understand poverty, racism and sexism." Its another for a poor, black, woman to go to a poor, latino woman and say the same thing. That's frankly more insulting than anything else. Of course a poor Latino woman probably understands a thing or two about poverty and racism and sexism. No, that doesn't mean she understands the concrete particulars of that individual poor black woman's life, but it does mean that she's not completely ignorant of what it feels like to be poor, live in poverty and experience racism.

I'm not a wealthy, evangelical, fundamentalist, conservative Christian. Instead I am a churchless, demoninationless "heretic" as I have been branded on more than one occasion. It is insulting to me to act as though I have to put on an "atheist" shirt to understand what it feels like to be discriminated against or harassed on religious grounds. That's my point. I do want to understand what your life is like better. I want to share experiences and draw strength from each other against a common adversary. But I don't need to be lectured about persecution as though I couldn't possibly know what its like because I'm not an atheist.

So once again, I reiterate my one and only point: The people who hate you don't hate you because you're an atheist. They are the same people who hate me. They hate you for the same reasons they hate me - because you are not them and do not walk in lock-step with the authority they ascribe to themselves. They hate anyone or anything that does not conform to their point of view, including atheists and a lot of other people.

We have a lot in common. That doesn't mean I don't want to understand the particulars of your personal, individual experience. But I won't get that by wearing an "atheist" shirt. All that gets me is the GENERAL understanding which I already have, which is that if you have an minority opinion, you can expect to be ill-treated more frequently. In order to really try to "put myself in YOUR shoes" I would need to listen to you talk about the concrete particulars of YOUR personal direct experiences, how you feel about them, etc. That's something I'm more than ready to do - but that's how you try to experience the world through someone else's eyes for a few hours.

Sel

[Modem Butterfly]

107. Please don't patronize me

Wearing a shirt that says "atheist" does not give me any new information that wearing a shirt that says "I'm a gay Christian" does not already give me.

Atheist = Gay Xian

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

My point is it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.

Again, I say to you, "You have not actually experienced what you have not actually experienced,".

What atheists experience is neither new or unique to atheists.

In your experience.

What experience?

Oh, never mind.

My experiences as a woman have been different from my experiences as a person of color, which have been different from my experiences as an atheist, and which are, of course, unique from your experience as a gay Xian. So please, don't patronize me.

totally ignore the very next sentence which said, I have however personally witnessed a guy getting punched in the face for wearing a Yankees jersey.

Well, the thing about that is, I don't believe you, so I was hoping to avoid the whole issue. But since you brought it up, I call bullshit. Please provide supporting evidence.

First of all, I don't think its insulting at all for you to relate - not equate - your experience to mine.

Well how nice. First you tell me what I've experienced, then you tell me how to feel about it. Next you'll no doubt be telling me what to post.

But I don't need to be lectured about persecution as though I couldn't possibly know what its like because I'm not an atheist.

I think it's worth pointing out that the only one doing any lecturing about persecution per se is you. I'm not claiming that you're not persecuted. I'm not even claiming that I'm more persecuted, or, come to think of it, persecuted at all. But I am saying that I have a different experience than you.

Now what, exactly, is so difficult to understand about that?

We have a lot in common.

I don't think we do.

That doesn't mean I don't want to understand the particulars of your personal, individual experience.

Yet at the start of your post, you claimed to already understand the particulars of my experience.

In order to really try to "put myself in YOUR shoes" I would need to listen to you talk about the concrete particulars of YOUR personal direct experiences, how you feel about them, etc.

I think liberals do too much talking and not enough doing. This thread has proven to me that, given the chance to sit in my seat for a few hours, almost no theist would.

[Selwynn]

117. Response

Atheist = Gay Xian
Oh wait, no it doesn't.


The effect is the same. Harassment.

"Again, I say to you, "You have not actually experienced what you have not actually experienced

Wearing a shirt that says "atheist" doesn't get me there. All it does is get me general knowledge I already possess - that making a declarative statement of a minority and/or controversial opinion is pretty likely to generate inappropriate treatment and hostility. The only way for me to empathize with your personal experiences is for you to talk about your personal experiences. I'll never be able to actually experience what you, the specific individual person experiences in the way that you personally experience it. But I can relate such experiences to my own experiences, and feel empathy and compassion.


In your experience.

What experience?

Oh, never mind.

My experiences as a woman have been different from my experiences as a person of color, which have been different from my experiences as an atheist, and which are, of course, unique from your experience as a gay Xian. So please, don't patronize me.


And don't patronize me. As I said before, Its one thing to for a poor, black woman to go to a rich white man and say, "you need to try walking a mile in my shoes to understand poverty, racism and sexism." Its another for a poor, black, woman to go to a poor, Latino woman and say the same thing. That's frankly more insulting than anything else. Of course a poor Latino woman probably understands a thing or two about poverty and racism and sexism. No, that doesn't mean she understands the concrete particulars of that individual poor black woman's life, but it does mean that she's not completely ignorant of what it feels like to be poor, live in poverty and experience racism.

I'm not a wealthy, evangelical, fundamentalist, conservative Christian. Instead I am a churchless, demoninationless "heretic" as I have been branded on more than one occasion. It is insulting to me to act as though I have to put on an "atheist" shirt to understand what it feels like to be discriminated against or harassed on religious grounds. That's my point. I do want to understand what your life is like better. I want to share experiences and draw strength from each other against a common adversary. But I don't need to be lectured about persecution as though I couldn't possibly know what its like because I'm not an atheist.

Well, the thing about that is, I don't believe you, so I was hoping to avoid the whole issue. But since you brought it up, I call bullshit. Please provide supporting evidence.

How am I supposed to do that? You asked me if I had ever seen these things, I answered yes. If you already made your mind up that you were going to believe my answer if it wasn't an answer you liked, then what was the point of asking in the first place?


Well how nice. First you tell me what I've experienced, then you tell me how to feel about it. Next you'll no doubt be telling me what to post.


I did? Where exactly did I tell you specifically what the details of what you have personally experienced. There's a big difference between generally observable reality like, for example, the generally observable reality that people with minority opinions very frequently put up with unfair and hurtful harassment at the hands of the majority, and telling you exactly what you've personally been through.


I think it's worth pointing out that the only one doing any lecturing about persecution per se is you. I'm not claiming that you're not persecuted. I'm not even claiming that I'm more persecuted, or, come to think of it, persecuted at all. But I am saying that I have a different experience than you.

Now what, exactly, is so difficult to understand about that?


I don't doubt that the concrete particulars of your personal experiences are not only different than mine, but exclusively unique to you. But at the same time, I do understand the generalities of what its like to experience discrimination and harassment because of a minority opinion. Putting on an "atheist" shirt doesn't help me understand the concrete particulars of your specific experience which is unique to you. It would help me understand generalities of what its like to experience harassment because of a minority opinion, something I'm already intimately familiar with.

Now what, exactly, is so difficult to understand about that?


We have a lot in common.

I don't think we do.


I know you don't. If there's one thing that's quite clear it is the fact that you are convinced that I couldn't possibly empathize or understand your experiences and that we have nothing in common. This is the typical "I'm so misunderstood" complex, when in fact the truth is - you, like everyone else, are really not that big of a mystery.


Yet at the start of your post, you claimed to already understand the particulars of my experience.


I did? Where did I do that? I believe what I said at the start of my post (and then several times thereafter) was that putting on a shirt that says "atheist" doesn't help me understand the particulars of our specific individual experience any more than putting on a "I'm a gay Christian" shirt does. All it helps me understand is something I already understand: that people with minority points of view or experiences frequently face unfair and unjust harassment at the hands of some opposing majority.


I think liberals do too much talking and not enough doing. This thread has proven to me that, given the chance to sit in my seat for a few hours, almost no theist would.


There is no other way anyone can come to better understand the concrete particulars of someone else's experience without listening to them share this concrete experiences and how they feel about them. Putting on a shirt that says "atheist" or any other shirt is not going to help me understand what its like to be in your shoes, specifically. What its going to show me is that people with minority perspectives often take a lot of abuse from people in an opposing majority.

You know, I was really trying to avoid this, but now I'm just going to bring it up. I think if anyone out there is qualified to say something like "given the chance to sit in my seat for a few hours, almost no Christian/atheist/agnostic etc. would" I think its me. I've had my family run out of town and lose everything due to persecution for our beliefs, or lack of belief in certain things. I've watched that persecution and harassment lead to the nervous breakdown of my closest loved on. I've been spit on because of who I am. I've been beaten - beaten - for who I am. I've been excommunicated from fellowships, disowned by religious communities.

But you know what the difference seems to be between you and me? I don't carry this persecution complex chip on my shoulder that resents anyone who believes they can sympathize or empathize with what I've been through. I don't have an attitude that says, "no one can possibly know what its like unless they have my exact beliefs, lack of beliefs or experiences." I actually believe you could probably empathize and relate to some of the harassment I've experienced very well because of your own experiences. I don't feel like I live alone, alienated in a world where people who aren't exactly like me can never possibly understand me. I do believe that there is a lot of commonality between people who are harassed and mistreated because of who they are, even when the particulars of their own identity differ. I do believe that there is more that could unite us in commonality than needs to divide us...

What I don't believe is that putting on a shirt with the word "atheism" on it gives me any experiences I haven't already had, and had ten-fold.

I'm sure you'll probably just respond and say "I call bullshit, please provide evidence." I'm sorry that this is so offensive to you. This is all I have to say on the matter.
Sel

[Az]

121. If you don't deny the discrimination

then there is no point to the exercise. In your example of a black person complaining to a latino person the comparison is valid as long as the latino is not denying the black person's case. But if they are ignorant or in denial of the claims then there is validity to extolling them to try walking around in their shoes for a while.

[Selwynn]

123. I absolutely don't deny the discrimination --

--which was my whole point. "If you don't deny the discrimination then there is no point to the exercise." Exactly.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote for sure.
Sel

[Modem Butterfly]

125. This says it all

Its one thing to for a poor, black woman to go to a rich white man and say, "you need to try walking a mile in my shoes to understand poverty, racism and sexism." Its another for a poor, black, woman to go to a poor, Latino woman and say the same thing.

This is astoundingly ignorant. The issues African Americans face are very different than the issues a Hispanic Americans face. Just because they both aren't white doesn't mean they're both the same.

As for the rest, de ja fucking vu. Call me when you have something original to say.

I don't carry this persecution complex chip on my shoulder that resents anyone who believes they can sympathize or empathize with what I've been through.

You're not sympathizing, you're not empathizing. You are trying to hijack my experience and claim it for yourself. "I know what you're feeling as an atheist because I'm a gay Xian". Well guess what God-boy? Being an Xian, gay or otherwise, is, in fact, the exact OPPOSITE of being an atheist. You insult me, you belittle my experience, and you demean yours. I offer a chance to actually experience, in a small way, being an atheist. Instead, you want to play a game of "let's pretend" and then climb on your high-horse at the idea that it somehow isn't the same as actual life.

[Az]

129. There seems to be a notion floating around

that all discrimination is the same. Sort of a "all closets are decorated the same" kind of thing. I think Selwynn gets that we are discriminated against. But I think Modem is trying to convey that it isn't quite the same as other discrimination that we are familiar with from history.

Most other oppressed groups have ways or needs of finding each other. Racial minorieties can't help but recognise one another. Homosexuals need to find one another in order to partake in the social aspect of their difference. But atheists have no way to recognise one another from simple physical differences. We can come by our atheism in isolation. We don't have many chances in society to find like minded individuals. The society provides many reminders of our difference and creates a very strong impetus to stay closeted. Thus we are isolated in ways that many other minorities are not.

It is natural to want to find people you can feel open and free around. Religious people, even if they have decidedly different takes on the religion, have many such outlets for their social needs. But the social damper on atheists creates for us a barrier to forming such groups.

This teeshirt experiment is a perfect example. Everyone assumed that the teeshirt would garner negative reactions. I find that when I expose myself with teeshirts or bumperstickers that yes I do get a lot of negative reactions (sometimes downright hostile in fact tonight I got flipped off by a car with a Jesus fish on it) but I also get a lot of surepticious thumbs up. There are a lot of atheists out there that simply are scared to express themself. Seeing another atheist is a truly encouraging thing.

Let me tell a story. Me and my girlfriend (atheist as well) were shopping at the local grocery store. As we came out to our car we noticed a pair of little ole ladies© were putting their groceries in their car next to ours. They kept looking at our bumper stickers as they packed. We managed to pack our away quicker and got in and were preparing to drive away when one of the little ole ladies© came up to the passenger side window and tapped on the glass. My GF and I looked at each other and braced for what was to come. She rolled down the window and the little ole lady© leaned in and quietly said, "We love your bumperstickers."

And thats why. Thats why some of us are so vocal and make so much noise. Because there are so many out there that don't know they are not alone. They have been so long in the closet that they fight any attempts to help them out of the closet.

The descrimination we suffer may not be like what other people have suffered. But that doesn't mean we don't suffer. We want to have a voice in this society. We want a place at the table. We want dignity and respect just like everyone else. We want to be able to speak our minds without being condemned as evil.

Wearing the teeshirt won't convey all we go through. You may not even get a reaction in the short time you wear it. But like the lesson learned in Black like me, you can always take the teeshirt off. We can only hide our true selves from those around us an hope they never find out if we wish to remain hidden or risk losing contact with the people in our society.

[Selwynn]

130. Thanks Az

I appreciate your insight. I think I understand more clearly the kinds of special differences of which you and modern speak. The only thing I can say, which I'm afraid will upset some for reasons that honestly pass my understanding, is that I very much identify with that feeling, which for me makes me sympathetic to what you folks face every day.


It is natural to want to find people you can feel open and free around. Religious people, even if they have decidedly different takes on the religion, have many such outlets for their social needs. But the social damper on atheists creates for us a barrier to forming such groups.


Unfortunately, this is not true for me. I find no such outlets - anywhere. Which is why I sympathize. The only difference I would say, though I don't in any way mean to make this some kind of contest of "who has it worse," is that atheists at least have the possibility of identifying other atheists that they can feel open and free around. I've yet to find that. Religious people disagree with me, and irreligious people disagree with me. I've read some writings by people who have a perspective like me, so its not like I'm something special or anything. But obviously, I have no personal connection to them.

If this sounds like a pity party, it isn't. I don't feel sorry for myself, in fact I'm a happy person. But that doesn't mean feeling isolated isn't a burden sometime. And I think that was my main point. Well no, my main point was that I don't think wearing a shirt that says "atheism" tells you much of anything beyond the general: that discrimination against people who hold a point of view that conflicts with the majority view happens. If you already realize that, there's little point to the exercise.

But my sub-point was the fact that I think I know a little more about what it feels like to be an atheist in America than some might think I do. Or at least, I know what its like not to have outlets for community or people you can feel open, safe and free around, and I know what its like to be discriminated against. Contrary to assumptions, not all religious people have religious community outlets. You don't have those outlets if you're a heretic.

Despite the specific uniqueness of the hardship of being an atheist in American, I do not agree that somehow it is impossible to feel sympathy or even empathize without actually being an atheist. My experiences are not that dissimilar from what you describe, which makes me more sympathetic to the particular burdens of being an atheist in America - not less.

Sel

[kwassa]

81. Atheism is a dogma, too, and I'm not a dogmatic person

Most places I've lived this shirt would hardly raise an eyebrow, of course I live in the blue states. On the other hand, why would I proclaim my belief system on my T-shirt? I don't do that now. Anyone that does has a rather strong identity in that particular belief system. I can't recall shirts saying "Catholic" or "Jew".

I would think that I would get many stares if I wore such a shirt simply because it is an odd thing to do. The stares would be those of curiousity, probably because it was so unusual.

I wouldn't buy this shirt because .... I wouldn't want to spend money on it. Give it to me free, I would wear it around as an experiment. I think it would be interesting.

[Modem Butterfly]

91. PM me your address and I'll send you one

:)

[trotsky]

102. Hold on a minute... how is atheism a dogma?

Atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. I assume you don't believe in leprechauns, so does your lack of belief in them constitute a dogma?

[Selwynn]

106. Yes if I actually did not believe in them

..but as a matter of fact I neither believe in them nor disbelieve in them. I have no opinion on the matter whatsoever. They might exist, I've just never seen any evidence for them. That doesn't get me to the place where I can say "I don't believe in the existence of leprechauns." That just gets me to the place where I can say "I don't have an opinion on the existence or nonexistence of leperachauns."

To say anything else, is a declarative dogma.

Sel

[trotsky]

108. You completely misstate the atheistic position.

Atheism is simply a lack of theistic beliefs.

You don't have to actively disbelieve in the existence of gods to be an atheist. You can simply say "I have not seen enough evidence to justify belief in gods, so I do not."

[Selwynn]

112. Atheism:

a·the·ism
n.

1.
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

It doesn't matter what the reasons are for the declarative conclusion that "gods do not exist" - lack of evidence or otherwise. It remains a declarative assertion just the same. Anything else is appropriately called agnosticism.

ag·nos·ti·cism
n.

1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

[Az]

116. I wonder who wrote that definition

Does the word agnostic tell us what the individual in question thinks might be true? Seems there is a bit of gap within the definitions expressed there.

I wonder what the word amoral means.

1 a : being neither moral nor immoral; specifically : lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments apply <science as such is completely amoral -- W. S. Thompson> b : lacking moral sensibility <infants are amoral>
2 : being outside or beyond the moral order or a particular code of morals

Hmmm. Seems to be suggesting that strapping the prefix 'a' on the word moral means someone that is without morality as we know it.

Lets try another one.

Atypical: not typical. Hmmm. Root word typical with prefix 'a' means not typical.

I see a pattern.

Look the definitions you are using are those adopted by a society that has a theistic belief in the majority. It is going to presume itself the superior position and thus frame the lack of it as inferior. It is creating a definition that is not logically sound nor properly representitive of other's positions. You can continue to support this structure or you can respect those who identify with the term and their wishes as to how it should be defined.

[Selwynn]

118. I've heard that justification before, and I don't buy it.

I'm more than content to use the dictionary definition of words.

[Az]

119. Of course

If I were in your shoes I would probably say the same thing.

[Selwynn]

120. Certainly

If I were in your shoes, I'd say the same thing too.

[Az]

122. A question

I tried to make this point below but allow me to ask it in our little branch here as well. Are you of the position that there is no discrimination or do you accept our claim that there is descrimination?

[Selwynn]

124. I wholesale accept the claim that there is discrimination --

--something I've said over and over and over and over again.

[trotsky]

132. Selwynn, I'm disappointed.

You, of all people, should be wary of pigeonholing people based on dictionary definitions.

Or do you remember nothing of our previous discussions?

You nearly raked me over the coals on how the dictionary definitions of things like "religion," "theism," and "God" were not what YOU believed those words meant.

Are you telling me you have developed a double standard now?

[Beetwasher]

133. LOL! BUSTED!

Ha ha ha...Somehow I don't think you'll be getting a response...

[Az]

134. Its always a good idea to allow a person dignity

You don't need a booya! at the end of an argument. Particularly if you are trying to convince the other person of something. It can take time to internally shuffle new factors. If you make the difference an ego issue then the new information may be discarded out of defense of the ego. You defeat your own purpose in doing this.

[Selwynn]

148. You don't know me very well, do you? :)

[Selwynn]

147. Of course, as you well know, that's not what I said at all

What I did ask is for you to define how you were using the terms, something which you repeatedly refused to do, only to finally in a huff give the e-dictionary definitions of the terms. That's fine of course, however I then got to hold you to those concrete definitions, which helped my argument a lot.

The difference between me and Az is that if I don't feel that my experience is effectively reflected by the defintion of a word like "religion" or "theism" or "God" I'm more than willing to discard it, and replace it with something that's more accurate. I don't say "I don't like the dictionary." I say, "I'm happy to agree upon another term if you feel one more accurately reflects my positions."

Frankly, if we are to play "loose" with the term "atheism" then I am able to call myself an atheist, since I reject most if not all of the categories of classical theism. But I'm sure you probably wouldn't like that. :)

[trotsky]

149. And you don't think that's hypocritical, hmm?

As I recall, in that discussion, once I offered up some definitions ("in a huff" lol), it gave you the freedom to simply say, "Nope, that's not what I believe." Which is pretty much what I had suspected all along.

So if you think that helped your argument "a lot," then you've just given me a slam dunk here. In response to your definition of atheism: Nope, that's not what I believe.

But regardless of how you try to define atheism, if you still believe in some sort of god, you're not an atheist. So yeah, I wouldn't like it, because you'd be lying.

At the very least, I would think a good liberal principle is allowing a group to define itself, even a group as disjointed, disconnected, and disorganized as atheists. Wouldn't you? Or do you still insist on applying a theist-created definition to atheism?

[Selwynn]

152. There's just a tiny difference friend

You: nope, I don't agree with the standard definition of atheism, but I'm going to keep using the term with my own made up definition anyway.

Me: the standard definition of these words is not something I'll deny or try to rationalize away, but they don't fully represent me. So I'm more than willing to agree to some new terms. I'm not going to sit around and try to argue that the dictionary is wrong.

Yes, I still insist on applying dictionary definitions to things. They may not be perfect, but they are the standards for our english language usage. We have to have standards in language to get anywhere in discussion.

Perhaps is there was some kind of authoritative, agreed upon, sanctioned singluar definition of atheism by atheists we could talk and that would at least be a starting point. But there isn't. There's millions of different interpretations. Therefore the starting point I assume is the foundational dictionary starting point. If you want to clarify that when YOU use the word atheism, you are using Trotsky's special augmented version of the word, that's fine by me.


But regardless of how you try to define atheism, if you still believe in some sort of god, you're not an atheist. So yeah, I wouldn't like it, because you'd be lying.


Says YOU. But since there's no authoritative agreed upon definition of atheism, and since clearly things like the dictionary have no authoritative quality, and since there's no collective uniform agreement among atheists - I guess you really don't have any business whatsoever trying to dictate exactly how the term "atheist" should be used? So from now on, I'll refer to myself as an atheist -- appropriately so as far as I'm concerned, because I reject the tenants of classical theism. I am a not-theist. Atheist. And of course, since there is no authority on which to base a definition of atheism, my definition is as good as yours, right?

[trotsky]

153. Welcome to atheism, Selwynn.

Whatever point you were trying to make, I still have no idea. But now that you've decreed that you alone get to pick and choose when to use dictionary definitions, and when to use your own (while retaining the right to fitfully criticize anyone who tries to do the same), I think further discussion is pointless.

[Selwynn]

155. Thanks! Are there T-shirts or gift baskets?

I didn't "decree" that I alone get to pick and choose when to use dictionary definitions. And with all due respect I'm going to express frustration right now. I'm going to do that by saying that anyone with a first grade reading level can look at what I've written and see in unambiguous language that I didn't say that. Which leads me to question whether or not you deliberately distort the truth?

What I said right up above was that in fact I do not what to pick and choose dictionary definitions. Which is why I said that if you give me the dictionary definition and say "this is what being religious means" and I do feel that my perspective is represented in that message, I would rather say "well we should try to find a new term or word that would more accurately reflect my position," instead of saying "well the dictionary is biased, wrong, distorted, etc."

Get it? Can you find any way to twist and distort that statement into saying that I want to pick and choose dictionary definitions? I have a certain, experience. I describe that experience. You give me a dictionary definition of some word, and ask if that's what I mean. I look at the definition, and if it does not match up or accurately describe what I mean, of course I'm going to say no. I'm not going to dispute the definition of the word. But I will suggest that we must find another word that is more appropriate if the definition itself does not accurately represent my experience.

The difference between me and Az, and now you, on this is that you want to do the exact opposite. You want to re-define the definition of the word atheism and dispute that the dictionary definition has any kind of authority when it comes to defining meaning of terms.

Now, hopefully you can still read carefully for what I say next. In that case playing by your rules I can call myself whatever I want. I have just as much reason to call myself an atheist, because in my view, atheism can appropriately mean a rejection if classical theism and not have anything to do with a rejection (or lack of belief) in god. If you object to that, by what criteria do you object? Certainly not dictionary definitions of terms because you've already challenged its authority there by disputing the definition of atheism.

So you can't argue that the dictionary definition of theism is "belief in the existence of a god or gods" so that there for atheism would have to be some kind of rejection of that claim. You can't argue that, because the definition is not authoritative in any way, according to your logic. I have every bit as much right therefore, by your logic, to determine that I am most appropriately to be called an atheist, since I reject that doctrines of classical theism, and despite the fact that I believe in god.

And if I seem less generous with you in this post, its because I'm getting really tired of having the words I put on the page so blatantly ignored so that you can keep responding to me and accusing me of saying things that no one who actually reads the words on the page could possibly think I said. If you can tell me that you are honestly being as sincere in your responses as you possibly can, and it is just my poor writing and failure to clearly express my ideas that causes you to accuse me of saying the exact opposite of what I actually said, then I'll accept that.

But if there's any part of you that is being less than sincere, or that is deliberately trying to distort my meaning, I'd ask you to grow up and start caring more about dialog and discussion than "winning" a point. I like talking to you a lot, right up to the point where I start feeling like you're just trying to score points by willfully distorting my argument, rather than actually trying to have a open discussion like civilized, rational, mature adults can. If that's not your intent then I'm going to have to build some good-faith trust with you, because I can't see how it could possibly be "accidental."

Sel

[kwassa]

135. Your atheism sounds like agnosticism, so you are not an atheist?

Have you been masquerading?

An athiest definitely believes that there are no Gods. That is what atheism is. It is a positive, declaritive position, without the possibility of doubt involved.

If you define it otherwise, you are not an atheist.

[trotsky]

136. This has been hashed and rehashed so many times already...

that I'm just going to point to something that you can read if you are interested in the atheist point of view.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html

In particular the little blurb marked "But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?"

[kwassa]

145. Atheism is a dogma, like I said before

you have a dogmatic belief system, which you strongly advocate

yes, I read the blurb, I particularly like this:

"Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not."

One of the worst sentences I've read in a long time.

This is not what you practice, of course. You actively and sincerely believe it not to be true. It is your dogma, specifically.

[trotsky]

146. Hey, whatever you want to think.

I've pointed out how you are wrong, but you choose to ignore the opinions of actual atheists and just use your own definitions. Apparently your dogma is telling atheists they have a dogma, eh?

[kwassa]

150. The "absence of belief" is a belief in and of itself

It is a cute word game, actually, which thrusts on to others the responsibility for proving their is a God than onto atheists to disprove that there is no God.

The absence of belief IS it's own absolute belief, in fact, not some time of void. It is the belief that all atheists ascribe to, the unifying principle. It is therefore the dogmatic belief of atheists.

dog·ma ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dôgm, dg-)
n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m-t)

2) An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.

[Modem Butterfly]

151. Not Guilty vs. Innocent

In our legal system, one can be found guilty or not guity. But being found "not guilty" does not equate to being found innocent, as you can be retried if new evidence surfaces after having been found not guilty. So in our legal system, "Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not."

Theists make an assertation about the existance of a deity or deities. So far, to my mind, this assertation has not been proven.

[trotsky]

154. Excellent analogy, MB.

However, I'm pretty sure the distinction is lost on our friend.

[Stunster]

88. How about one that says "Proud Muslim"?

I'd be surprised if the atheist one attracted more hassle than the Muslim one, in most places in America.

Others that might get more hassle than "Atheist" in certain places include:


"Abortion is Murder"

"The Pope is the Vicar of Christ"

"Protestants are Heretics"

"God Bless the Spanish Inquisition"

"There Is Only One True Church, And It's Catholic"

"Go to Mass or Go to Hell"
:beer:
:beer:
:beer:
:beer:
:beer:
:beer:

[Modem Butterfly]

92. I'd be willing to wear the Muslim shirt if you'd be willing to wear one

You could also wear the atheist shirt. Your choice.

[Stunster]

111. I'm not a proud Muslim

or a Muslim of any description, and I have no desire to pass myself off as one. Same applies to passing myself off as an atheist.

If you want to do a social scientific study of how different t-shirts draw different reactions, good luck to you. I merely suggest that you don't confine such a study to "Atheist" t-shirts.

[Modem Butterfly]

126. I sometimes wear a "Nobody knows I'm a lesbian" t-shirt

Though I'm not gay.

I'm curious though- why do you have no desire to pass yourself off as an atheist?

[Stunster]

127. What good would it do?

I might find out that some people don't like atheists?

Well, I don't need to wear a t-shirt to be aware of that fact.

Are you suggesting that atheists are uniquely disliked and discriminated against, or much more so than any other group? And if they are, so what? Some group has to enjoy that distinction.

[Az]

128. The suggestion is

that we are more discriminated against than some may be aware of. You may have a very good grasp of the matter already. The point of this experiment is to raise awareness. If your awareness is already raised then all the better.

[Modem Butterfly]

131. There's also the counter point

There are more of us than many theists realize.

[More Than A Feeling]

89. Already been an atheist

Not a shy one either! In fact, I was atheist for the majority of my life (not that that has been very long)

Atheists will always have my support.

[Zhade]

104. Man, that's an AWESOME idea.

It would show some exactly what it's like to be treated as we are.

[Zynx]

115. I have been abused enough for being a Catholic.

I don't particularly enjoy ridicule. I know what your point is and I sympathize with it because I have been told I am going to hell for "believing in the Pope". Yeah, somebody actually said that. People should keep their religious views to themselves unless there is some organized debate or discussion.

[Damien]

140. i understand

I was raised catholic, and although I'm not anymore I find myself defending them quite often. I still have a lot of respect for much of the work the Pope does worldwide.

[Damien]

139. have you thought of an exchange?

You'd wear a "Jesus is God" T-shirt of something of the ilk for a day and they would wear the "Athiest" t-shirt?

That would be interesting to both sides. You might get more takers if you're open to it.

[Modem Butterfly]

141. You'd think that, but no

I have offered, and I've been turned down flat. In fact, of all the theists who've responded to this, and who've PM'd me, I only have one taker, providing I provide the shirt.

Interesting.