Atheists say they've been threatened over their views.

[and-justice-for-all]

(I do not hesitate to tell anyone that I am an Atheist and I find that their delusion is a cancer to society. A planet, populated by delusional beings is NOT A GOOD THING. I also have several bumper stickers that I have attached to magnetic stripping, which I change all the time; such stickers as "GOD IS JUST PRETEND", "JESUS CHRIST SUPER FRAUD", "THE BIBLE: A GRIM FAIRY TALE", "ATHEISM CURES RELIGIOUS TERRORISM", "FAITH IS BELIEVING WHAT YOU KNOW ISNT SO." "He's Your god their and a few others...This Country is NOT a Theocracy (never will be), so those fundi assholes will just have to get over it!"

DYLAN T. LOVAN
Associated Press
LOUISVILLE, Ky. - The note on Blair Scott's windshield wasn't a nice one.

The anonymous writer had to have seen Scott's atheist-themed bumper sticker, an uncommon sight in the small south Alabama town where he lived at the time.

"It just amazed me that people would take time out of their day to return to their car, grab a pen and paper and write a 'You're going to hell and you're going to burn in a lake of fire,' and stick it under my windshield," said Scott, a 36-year-old veteran who installs computer systems in prisons.

Outspoken atheists like Scott remain a minority, but there are dozens of atheist chapters sprouting up around the country, and even many in Southern states dominated by conservative Christians.

Many who consider themselves atheists said they're afraid to mention their views on religion or that they don't believe in deities. It's an especially unpopular opinion in the South, they said.

More: http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/state/16352145.htm

[mike_c]

1. I am an atheist and I'm proud to be free of religious oppression....

Of course, I live in a liberal community where it would be very unusual to be threatened for that. Still, I make no bones about it-- I'm an atheist.

[Union Thug]

2. I always find it curious just how quickly the disciples of the prince of peace...

...are willing to threaten violence to force people to see the world through their fantasy-glasses. They bounce around like retarded-zombie versions of Cotton Mather, James Sprenger or Henry Kramer.

[illinoisprogressive]

3. amazing how the religious right has no clue about religion

During ford's funeral I was struck by the service and thought how this was what religion is suppose to be. Not the hate and nasty of the evangelicals. That church is suppose to be comforting and accepting and quiet and introspective. Not what it's become like in fringie world.

[jfkraus]

4. I only sure of two things in this life.

The sun will come up tomorrow. And there is no god.

[TRYPHO]

70. Both potentially wrong if the 2nd one is wrong!

Not that I want to be proven right on this, but if God* decided to throw a black hole our way...

TRYPHO
* - I know you would say that it was a natural phenomena, but there'd be a few believers somewhere saying "I told you so".

[zonmoy]

115. that would be too evil even for god

since it would eliminate all his bootlickers.

[DemBones DemBones]

5. If you put a bumper sticker on your car, chances are

that you're going to offend somebody. YOUR choices are certainly meant to be offensive to all of us with religious beliefs but really just show your own insecurity.

[kestrel91316]

14. DemBones offended by an atheist?????? I'm SHOCKED.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Oh good.

I thought maybe we weren't trying hard enough. :D

[and-justice-for-all]

21. Now thats really cute...

...I/We, take a stance to express ourselves freely and openly and you turn and to say (basicly) to "Shut our mouths."? I am sorry of the reallity of the situation seems offensive, but the best way to to deal with a bully is to just confront him/her, which is what all of us non-theist are doing; Confronting a bully who needs knock on his/her ass.

This is NOT a theocracy, so get that out of your head right now. We can, as you surely do, express our worldly perspectives openly and freely which I will continue to do so as I see fit. I do not go around tormenting people with my non-theistic views, but if it comes to pass I will not hesitate or back down from any religious nut that comes my way. They will more then likely not have the balls to confront me and will only use Taliban tactics aganist me (Hit and Run).

If my bumper stickers offend you/them, I guess we are even. Those fucking "Marriage: One Man, One Women" and "Jesus'Icthys fish" (which was Robbed from the pagans) annoy the shit out of me.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Az]

22. Careful there

Some people place stickers on their car to show their pride. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they are trying to insult you when they stand up for themself.

[trotsky]

24. Wow. That exact same post could be used to attack someone...

who had been singled out because they put a gay pride sticker on their car.

You continue to be a paragon of virtue and tolerance, DemBones.

[toddaa]

26. Atheism is offensive

Is that what you believe?

[Zhade]

72. Insecure? Hardly - if we were insecure, we'd believe in fantasies with no evidence.

Now THAT'S insecure. You're so insecure you can't even face death without wishful thinking!

[NMMNG]

110. My my, aren't you the paragon of tolerance

:sarcasm:

[JohnyCanuck]

6. You might not want to believe in God,

but if you'd just be willing to kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars (after you leave town).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ

[TlalocW]

7. I wonder how well atheist chapters will do

It's been my experience that it's harder to keep a group or club together when that club's membership meets based solely on such a broad critera as NOT following a major paradigm or societal trend - because you'll get such a random group of people with varied interests and political stances that it will be hard to agree on what social activities to do and how to lobby for their rights. I've seen it happen in childfree groups, and the few times at a local Mensa group that a friend convinced me to attend (most boring bunch of people I've ever dealt with).

Once you get past the first couple of meetings, there usually isn't much to talk about.
Hey, Ted. How's it going?
Fine, Bob. By the way, God doesn't exist/I don't want to have children/I like having a high IQ.
I hear ya, Ted.
(Awkward silence)
Well, I'll see you next week, I guess.
Yep.

TlalocW

[Speck Tater]

8. When I joined the Air Force in 1963

myself and one other fellow in my barracks who was also an atheist got a lot of flack from others in the flight because we were "godless". Of course it was THEY who visited the strip joints of San Antonio on the weekends, not my atheist friend and myself. In the end we told by our superior officers that we WOULD go to church every Sunday and if we didn't pick a church to go to they would pick one for us.

There was no such thing as freedom of religion in the Air Force in 1963.

[China_cat]

16. In case you haven't been looking...there still isn't.

[jody]

9. Our nation and world will find peace when people who are religious and irreligious learn to tolerate

each other. I wonder which side will take the first step?

Until then, hate and conflict will reign supreme.

[beam me up scottie]

19. "hate and conflict" ?

religious hate = KKK, GodHatesFags, Randall Terry & like minded dominionists advocating violence towards, and supporting the persecution of, GLBT people, feminists, non-christians and other assorted sinners/infidels



irreligious hate = mean people like Elton John and Richard Dawkins dissing your religion

I wonder which side will take the first step?

Obviously, the "irreligious" haters should learn to just shut up and enjoy being persecuted, I mean tolerate the religious.

:eyes:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

10. Why do we have a "National Cathedral" anyway?

"Respecting religion"????? Huh? What constitution?

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. It has no ties to the government whatsoever

This Episcopal church is formally named the Cathedral Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul in the City and Diocese of Washington. Its nickname, the National Cathedral, comes from it being in the nation's capital and from it being the technical seat of the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church. It has no ties to or sponsorship from the national or local government.

[kwassa]

36. And the Bishop of Washington is very, very liberal

as is the diocese. John Bryson Chane, one who has strongly spoken out against the homophobes trying to leave the church.

[TechBear_Seattle]

47. I got that slightly incorrect

According to the Wikipedia, the National Cathedral received a charter from Congress on January 6, 1893 The article does not mention why, but a history article on the National Cathedral's website offers this:

The idea for a national cathedral is as old as Washington itself. In 1791, when Congress selected the site to be the capital of the United States, President George Washington commissioned Major Pierre l’Enfant to design an overall plan for the future seat of government.

Included in l’Enfant’s plan was a church, “intended for national purposes, such as public prayer, thanksgiving, funeral orations, etc., and assigned to the special use of no particular Sect or denomination, but equally open to all.”

Largely through the efforts of Washington community leaders such as Riggs Bank President Charles C. Glover, plans for building Washington National Cathedral gained momentum. On January 6, 1893, Congress granted a charter to the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral Foundation of the District of Columbia, allowing it to establish a cathedral and institutions of higher learning. Signed by President Benjamin Harrison, this charter was the birth certificate of Washington National Cathedral.

So there is a connection to national government, the Congressional charter. However, this charter only allowed the Cathedral to be built and establish schools within the borders of the District of Columbia. Neither the Cathedral, nor the Episcopal Church, receive any kind of money or other support from any government or government agency.

[kestrel91316]

15. "We" don't "have" a National Cathedral. That is just the name given to

that big Episcopal church in DC.

USofA has nothing to do with it, other than being the nation it's located in.

[EST]

11. As members of a still somewhat open society, we all have the

opportunity to advocate for our points of view, even to the point of exposing our own neuroses.
Over a fairly long career, I have sat in nearly all the cheerleading seats regarding the suppression of honest disagreement. The second class personhood that the more obnoxious of the religious community seeks to consign atheists to is, indeed, regrettable.

The destroyers of our civilization do seem to come largely from religious fundamentalism, but that could well be a result of the fact that there are about ten times as many people who claim to be members in good standing in that community and 'follow the leader' seems to be a strong tendency among large groups.

As for the truly devout, there may be an alternative explanation for their apparently illogical (to us godless heathens) behavior and beliefs.

In the study of gravitation and why it is such an incredibly weak force, the solution seems to come from the notion that there are eleven dimensions, seven of which, though they may be only an atom's distance separate from us and our familiar space, are not presently detectable. Gravity - and other forces - seem to be leaking across into the four dimensions we can sense.

The biggest majority of us humans might well be able to sense some sort of leakage from those other dimensions and whatever it is that they can feel that we atheists cannot, perhaps for want of a better label, they call "god."

My point is that they might actually be in closer touch with creation and reality than we are but have been handed a lot of silly interpretations for their experience and are, thus, not to be treated as objects of ridicule, but as sensitive fellow beings who need teaching and understanding.

If we can't help them, it is our failing, not theirs.

[toddaa]

12. Atheists aren't persecuted

We're just mean to people because we don't believe in their myths. Nobody likes mean people.

[Danger Mouse]

18. People who act like that are morons.

Jesus loves BUT YOU'RE STILL GOING TO BURN IN HELL
ah, the folks I share a religion with...

[Az]

20. A partial list of actions taken against me due to my atheism

From time to time I put various magnetic bumperstickers on my car announcing my atheism in various ways (I tend to avoid the nastier ones). I do this to let other atheists know they are not alone out there. But I get other people's attention as well. Here is some of what they have done to me.

Countless pamphlets left on my windshield informing me I am evil, doomed, damned, and an asortment of other threats.

Several hand written notes informing met that I am a horrible person and I will get what I deserve.

A WWJD bracelet wrapped around my windshield wipers.

3 key jobs (cut directly through the stickers in question so I am pretty sure it wasn't due to bad parking).

3 sets of stickers stolen (which is a bit ironic considering the thou shall not steal commandment, I have thought about putting a sticker on the back of them reminding them about that).

1 set of stickers removed from the back and placed on the side of the car(hmmmm someone remembered the commandment in mid theft?)

10 bibles dumped on my trunk. This was during a local event where evangelists were actively promoting their belief. They were handing out truncated bibles (just the NT). It seems one particular group of them found my car and decided I needed extra strength saving and only 10 bibles would do. They have since been used in several experiments concerning claims in the bible.

Countless birds extended my way on the highway from people driving vehicles with Jesus fish on them(this is fortunately balanced out by numerous thumbs up which was the original intent).

I have been followed into parking lots on a couple of occaisions and evangelyzed.

I have a friend that was forced off the road due to having a Darwin Fish on his car. The insults shouted at him made it clear why they were threatening him.

Leaving the car aside back in highschool I once came into my Advanced Chem class to find the chairs arrainged in a circle and the words "origin of life" written on the chalk board. The teachers had pulled the two chem classes for that hour into one classroom and had decided to have an open discussion concerning the origin of life (yes, science is apparently determined by popularity now). I was the only vocal advocate for evolution. Most of the students sat in stunned silence while a few insisted "God did it". The next day I found a note jammed into my Chem book informing me "Believe in God or Else." Nice.

I have another friend that lost her job because she would not join in the office prayer session. Once it got out that she was an atheist she found she was being marginalized and no one would cooperate with her. Eventually they trumped up an excuse and tried to fire her.

Now I understand that not all Christians are like this. But Christians have to realize that a lot of them are like this. This is how we are treated by their fellow believers. This is often how we come to know their beliefs. So yes, atheists can get a little hostile.

[Meshuga]

23. Similar stuff happened to me

but for putting bumper stickers with different sorts of Jewish themes. I just gave up and I don't have bumper stickers anymore. I never had the scratches to the car but I had someone attempt to remove the sticker and another instance with someone adding a Christian fish sticker on top of one of my stickers. I had an a-hole stop me to evangelize at a parking lot saying that he happen to notice my sticker.

I've had to deal with some crazy incidents when I encountered intimidation and "lovely" words and phrases we Jews have to deal with from time to time but the offenders for these instances are not necessarily believers. It's easier to tell when they call me a "Christ killer" or something to that nature. Those are the scary types because they say that thinking "revenge" in their minds! But I guess it doesn't really matter whether the person who told me bluntly that she hated Jews right in front of my 3-year-old son was a believer or not. I don't think it's the belief or lack of belief that is in play in this instance. Hate and ignorance are the culprits.

The things we hear and see these days! And look, I've always lived in blue country!

[cosmik debris]

25. After having crosses spray painted on my car and home

I had to return to the proverbial closet. It is just too expensive to be an atheist where I live. The followers of the Prince of Peace are too violent, intolerant, and malicious to allow dissent.

[kwassa]

27. tolerance breeds tolerance

The insulting and disrespectful attitude will not get a positive reaction from almost anyone.

"I do not hesitate to tell anyone that I am an Atheist and I find that their delusion is a cancer to society. A planet, populated by delusional beings is NOT A GOOD THING. I also have several bumper stickers that I have attached to magnetic stripping, which I change all the time; such stickers as "GOD IS JUST PRETEND", "JESUS CHRIST SUPER FRAUD", "THE BIBLE: A GRIM FAIRY TALE", "ATHEISM CURES RELIGIOUS TERRORISM", "FAITH IS BELIEVING WHAT YOU KNOW ISNT SO." "He's Your god their and a few others...This Country is NOT a Theocracy (never will be), so those fundi assholes will just have to get over it!"

[trotsky]

28. Hi kwassa.

Actually that comment was the OP's, not the person who was threatened by a god-fearing Christian as detailed in the linked article.

[kwassa]

35. I know, it was the OP's comment I thought was pretty offensive.

[and-justice-for-all]

71. Blunt honesty can be a real bitch...

...Why do you seem to think I/we owe such ideologies respect and that it should be handled with kids gloves?? Its does not and I will not give it any special treatment.

A) There is no proof of a supreme being, AT ALL.
B) There is no evidence to argue with about the existence of that supreme deity, .
C) "Faith" is NOT proof, nor does it prove anything for the existence of a supreme deity.
D) "Ambiquity" also does not work in the favor of proof of the existence of a supreme deity.

The fact of the matter, is that there is NO evidence to support the existence of G-d. We do not have to disprove what there is no evidence for, FAITH is not your evidence.

Why is it important for us to say that there is no no g-d? Let me put it this way, how do you feel about a planet inhabited by beings juiced up on Acid or Extacy? Does not sound good or in anyway benefical to society, that is exactly what it is like with religion.

[Dorian Gray]

75. Heck...

You don't owe politeness or respect to anybody. But, I do find the tone of the bumper stickers rude, and I would suspect that you are quite happy with the reaction that you are eliciting with them. I can't imagine the purpose of them if not to elicit some sort of negative response by believers.

Any person who would attack you for those bumper stickers is an idiot, of course. I wouldn't attack or argue, myself. I'd roll my eyes and forget about it a minute later. But, there must be some satisfaction at exciting someone to anger. If not, you'd have a bumper more benign alluding to your atheism. The Darwin Fish or some other sort of sticker showing that you are proud of your philosophies.

Of course, different people behave differently. I'd never want something on my car that would insult or anger or hurt another human being. Nor would I hurt, anger, or insult another human being because of a silly little bumper sticker. I don't get the anger.

[and-justice-for-all]

77. Oh, I do have an EVOLVE FISH on my bumper as well...

....I also have a SUPPORT LAW ENFORCEMENT ribbon on my car.

So, now I am a rude asshole for doing the samething that bible thumping believers do?? So be it, I am a dick. I have yet to have a run in with anyone, why is that?? Because they all know that the statement on those bumper stickers is TRUE.

I have had no negative reactions, I have seen people point them out and begin to discuss, which is exactly the intention. Yeah, they are blunt and direct, but thats the way I see it.

Insulting bumper stickers like "BUSH/CHENEY '04"; " W "; "Marriage: One man, One women"; those Icthys jesus fish....I have long endured such crap for YYYEEEAAARRRSS and I will no longer sit back and allow those bastards to think that they own this world or that they are superior because of some damn delusional ideology bullshit.

[Dorian Gray]

91. Look,

I am not a bumper sticker girl. I believe most of them are meant to be in your face to a lot of people, and I just simply don't like provoking people. And, yet, despite that, I don't get really angry when people are provocative, either. If it makes you feel better, the bible thumping believers who put idiotic bumper stickers on their cars condemning or ridiculing others are also rude assholes. I don't think you are being more provocative than pretty much any other bumper sticker person. It's just anathema to my personality to want to provoke others with a silly little slogan. I don't want to ridicule others for their philosophies, politics, and/or theologies. I don't want people to think I believe they are stupid, evil, or wrong.

[toddaa]

29. Can an atheist voice an opinion that you don't find offensive?

Just wondering.

Christianity is a myth. That's my opinion. Explain to me how that is insulting and disrespectful.

[cain_7777]

30. Its like calling an alcoholic an alcoholic.

They don't like to leave their happy little delusions so they perceive a rational statement as insulting and disrespectful to discredit it.

[kwassa]

34. I see that you are open-minded and tolerant, too.

[cain_7777]

97. Religion doesn't get a free pass

I'm open minded about many things but when it comes to having faith in superstition then I'm just down right intolerant. Since you loved the bumper stickers in the op you might want to see the one on my car that reads, "Religion is a crutch for people who can't think for themselves," and the other reads, "One Nation Under Educated," because I believe that religious belief stems from a lack of education, and if you're offended by that then don't discuss religion in a public forum.

[kwassa]

32. It isn't what you say, it is how you say it.

Atheists say things here all the time that don't offend me, because those atheists are respectful of the views and beliefs of others. The bumper stickers quoted in the OP were quite disrespectful, however, and if one does not want to encourage a backlash, than one wouldn't put such a sticker on their car. Mocking the beliefs of others is not a path to great popularity.

[trotsky]

38. I thought you said you understood.

The bumper stickers quoted by the OP are NOT the ones on the article's subject's car. Do you understand there are two people here, the OP and the person in the article?

[kwassa]

39. Yes, I do.

and it is the OPs editorial comment before the article that I found offensive.

[trotsky]

43. So, did you have any comments on the article itself?

Because if not, you should have probably kept it in PMs.

[Dorian Gray]

76. The bumper sticker

quoted by the OP may be provocative, but they shouldn't elicit violent responses from anybody, either. Obnoxious? Yeah, I believe so. But, they should be ignored if they aren't liked. (JMO!)

[cosmik debris]

41. Disrespect does not justify vandalism

And you should not place yourself on the side of defending or excusing that type of behavior.

[toddaa]

66. But that's exactly the problem

I don't always know when I'm crossing the line and at some point it just boils down to atheists shouldn't be allowed to say anything.

Let me give you an example. Let's take a couple of the examples in the OP and another slogan and rank them by offensiveness.

JESUS CHRIST SUPER FRAUD
FAITH IS BELIEVING WHAT YOU KNOW ISN'T SO
ATHEISTS ARE BEYOND BELIEF

Now for me, the first one I would deem to be insulting and I wouldn't put it on my car at all. The second one I'm not sure about. Faith is a word that is open to interpretation so I guess I can see how some people would not like the way I define it, but that's just a matter of disagreement, not an insult. The last one is about atheists, so I see no possible way it could be offensive, unless of course you just hate atheists. The problem that atheists are faced with is that no matter what statement we make regarding religious belief, someone is going to be insulted and offended. I can try to use my judgment, but I cannot account for the religious fervor of my audience.

I can honestly say when I am confronted with being chastised for the things I say about religion, it's often by someone who just wants all the atheists to shut up. I'm not suggesting that's what you believe, just saying that that's been my experience.

[cosmik debris]

31. That's right

It is all the fault of the intolerant atheists. If I had just tolerated my second class status I would not have had to repaint my house and car. How short-sighted of me not to see that I was out of line asking for equality.:sarcasm:

[kwassa]

33. I think you should have complete equality.

Where do you live, by the way? region, only.

Most cities in this country could care less about atheists. I have a theory that most that seem to suffer seem to be in rural or bible-belt communities, which most of this country isn't. I never get specifics, though, so I have no idea.

[cosmik debris]

37. I live in Waco, TX

As a civilian employee of the DoD I was required to attend religious services on government property on the clock. When I requested equal treatment for non-Christian employees I was harassed and fired. My fellow employees vandalized my property and threatened my family. That is YOUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT at work.

You may live in a haven of tolerance, but you should never mistake that for universal reality.

[kwassa]

40. Most of this country isn't like Wacko, er, Waco, Texas.

you got both Bible-belt and Texas going for you, a double-whammy.

That is outrageous that they can get away with this. It is completely wrong, of course.

[cosmik debris]

42. You still don't get it

It was not Waco, it was the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT! Professional salaried employees of the DoD. Most of them G-8 and above.

[trotsky]

45. Oh, kwassa "gets it" just fine.

Because he has never seen or experienced the harassment recorded by atheists, it MUST be localized to those podunk bible belt towns and therefore isn't a problem at all, so shut your whiny pie hole and stop saying offensive things or else you WILL get your car or house vandalized and you have only yourself to blame! :eyes:

[kwassa]

52. Oh, I get it. Got it the first time. the very first time.

The Federal government in Waco is made up of locals, of course.

[cosmik debris]

55. That is where you are wrong

Salaried employees of the DoD are "mobile" meaning that they seldom serve more than 2 years in the same facility. Most of the people involved had served in several states and even several countries. Very few were natives of Texas and they were the newbies who hadn't served two years yet.

[kwassa]

57. and what about the management?

those that make the local rules. Are these private contractors, or direct DoD management?

Most Federal employees are local to the area that they serve.

[cosmik debris]

58. I don't know where you get your information

But you are just plain wrong. The management was made up entirely of DoD civilian salaried employees. The only private contractors allowed on the facility were the truck drivers who delivered and hauled stuff away.

And there were no "local" rules. The DoD was responsible for all rules.

[kwassa]

61. alright then, it sounds like you have a case.

I gave a good general knowledge about Federal employees, and private contractors, but not about DoD.

What about your congressman or senators, or the ones investigating the Air Force Academy?

You clearly have a good case.

[cosmik debris]

62. See post #48 n/t

[Az]

49. How bout Detroit

I have a friend that was hounded from her job when she was outed as an atheist when she refused to attend the office prayer sessions. At first they just put her on the persona non grata list which of course made her work very difficult to do. Then they started hiding supplies on her refusing the cooperate with her. Eventually the trumped up a report of her not working well with others and tried to fire her.

So Waco... Detroit... Wanna bet it occurrs elsewhere as well?

[kwassa]

53. Where in Detroit? What company is this?

I was born there and most of my relatives still live in the area.

[kwassa]

54. and my parents have been atheist Unitarians there forever ...

and never had the slightest problem.

and my dad spent his entire career working for GM, too, never had a problem.

[Az]

59. I know black people that have never had a problem as well

Doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

This is an issue that is a bit irritating to atheists. We see polls stating that all things being equal 65% of the people would vote against us if it were known we were an atheist. We experience the things we do. And then someone tells us its just an isolated incident. Yeah... I have a list of isolated incidents. I have friends that have been assaulted, fired, and marginalized in other ways. True... its not the experience of all atheists. But the simple fact remains that atheists are the reigning permissible group to hate in the US.

Consider what would happen to a tv show that taught that black people were the problem with society. What if a billboard claimed that women were evil. Yet these things happen every day regarding atheists. I bet I can flip through the cable tv right now and find someone saying something nasty about nonbelievers.

Name one elected official that in an open atheist. Name one nice character on TV that is an open atheist. So yeah ... isolated incident except for the fact that no one dares mention they are an atheist in public.... particularly if they have a public image to maintain.

[kwassa]

60. I think you need better P.R., and it sounds like that is happening

Part of the problem is that the general public's understanding of atheism is strictly limited to the old definition of the word, not the "lack of belief" definition most here use, so part of that is pure misunderstanding. However, there are magazine articles about, and bestselling books by atheists, now, so it would seem that there is more general awareness about what is going on.

I do think much of the so-called discrimination against atheists is highly exaggerated, at least in most of the US, and as it is a characteristic that is easily hidden bears no comparison whatsoever with the plight of black Americans, who can't hide their race at all. Religious fundamentalists, though highly vocal the past few years, really are a minority in what is essentially a secular society. Many people give lip service to theism but barely or rarely practice it. You'll find them on Sunday mornings either still in bed or at the mall.

[trotsky]

63. What a load.

"you need better P.R."

Same mentality as found in the statement, "it's the woman's fault she was raped because she was asking for it." Your compassion is overwhelming, kwassa. Guess your personal experience trumps everyone else's. :eyes:

[Az]

64. I was not trying to draw that comparison

The issues that the blacks have suffered are different from what we suffer. But the point was that just because many black people do not experience problems does not mean there are not still problems.

I know atheists that don't experience any problems. Some even think as you do that its overblown. Doesn't make them right.

The problem we face is not the same as other groups. But it is a problem and one that festers in a soceity supposedly predicated on freedoms. I would rather look to resolve the problem than just ignore it and hope it goes away.

[kwassa]

65. I agree with you completely.

and I think the problem will be overcome. There has been much more public exposure to the current train of thought in atheism due to Dawkins and Harris's best-selling books in the past year, plus articles in major magazines, so the awareness of the issue is being raised.

And I think a long festering backlash against the fundies is taking place, too, with the fall of Bush's popularity, with great cracks appearing in the evangelical movement, too. The lockstep has ended,in both the Republican party, and in the conservative religious community.

[Evoman]

69. Yes, we have some more public exposure to atheism

due to Dawkins and Sam Harris. And when we post anything from them, we get a bunch of post from liberal believers calling them assholes, and saying they are offensive.

And then we get people counting the times we say "Dawkins" and "Harris" and making fun of us.

[kwassa]

79. the endless repetition of Dawkins and Harris in this group is boring

more than anything else, and that is why I like to make fun of it.

They are quoted far more than any religious text in this group, and I find that amusing.

[cosmik debris]

81. Is this hypocrisy?

From YOUR post #27:

"The insulting and disrespectful attitude will not get a positive reaction from almost anyone."

But in post #79 you say:

"the endless repetition of Dawkins and Harris in this group is boring
more than anything else, and that is why I like to make fun of it"

What reaction do you expect from YOUR insulting and disrespectful attitude?

[trotsky]

86. ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oooh, cosmik, if there was a "SNAP" smiley you just earned it.

[Evoman]

88. It isn't disrespectful if you piss on atheist threads.

I mean...we're trying to start a good discussion using Dawkins' and Harris' books....whats THAT all about! It deserves to be mocked and made fun of.

Now lets talk about Jesus....in your opinion is Jesus good, or is Jesus GREAT.

[kwassa]

89. and how am I being insulting?

[cosmik debris]

90. Duh! In your own words:

"the endless repetition of Dawkins and Harris in this group is boring
more than anything else, and that is why I like to make fun of it"

[kwassa]

92. So, you are insulted because I point out repetition?

Pretty low threshold of insult, to me.

Did I call anyone names? Did I insult either Harris or Dawkins?

I can't be mocking someone's beliefs, because you don't have any, right?

[cosmik debris]

95. You've got it all wrong (as usual)

Mocking people is insulting and disrespectful. I would have thought that you could appreciate that, but apparently not.

And you didn't answer my question. What reaction do you expect from your mockery?

[Az]

82. Sorry but its kind of difficult for us to get note worthy authors published

Seems we are some sort of pariah in many circles and no one wants to be seen reading our books or even publishing them. We had to come up with our own publishing company to get any press out there. So we have a few that come along and get some press and yeah... there are going to be those who quote them. They are like heroes to many. I wonder how others feel when their heroes are cut down by others? Hmmmm. That golden rule thing again. ;)

[Evoman]

83. I don't mind criticism...I'm not some sort of hero worshipper.

Hell, mock Dawkins or Harris if you want. Just don't be a fucking hypocrite and expect us to be nice about Jesus or God when your being an asshole. At least Jesus and God aren't real people...we're mocking something fake.

[Az]

85. Personally I prefer civility on all sides

I do not offer the theists disrespect and I hope for the same in return. I am not thin skinned but I simply find that if respect is not forth coming from either side then actual dialog is not possible and if that is the case then its really just shouting at each other and that accomplishes nothing meaningful.

This is why I reject the use of the words such as delusional and such. I mean they get it. We think they are wrong and they think we are wrong. I can easily say I believe a person's experience of God is the result of an anamoly of the brain. The word delusion carries with it a great deal of emotional burden associated with insanity. What I know of the brain suggests that belief in God or even the belief that one communes with God is not insane. Just mistaken.

When people disagree on a subject it is best to keep the discussion away from emotional assaults. Certain words carry such implications and tend to upend any productive conversation. Its a question of what you hope for, expect, and want to participate in. In other words its a question of what one's goals are when they enter a conversation. If you want to vent your emotional frustration then go ahead and use words that are packed with venom and implications. But if you want the person you are talking to to actually listen to your ideas and consider them then you have to consider the person and adjust your words accordingly.

[Evoman]

87. Civility is the ideal, yes. But when people are attacking you with nothing

substantial, nothing takes the place of a good mocking.

However, I agree with you in prinicipal. I don't think I've ever used the word delusion in this forum. I prefer the Socratic method, meself. I just keep asking questions until the person slips, and then I go for the jugular. :evilgrin:

[Az]

106. One of my favorite net quotes

A walk down the path of history is crunchy with the crispy corpses of those who pooh-poohed or ignored the clown car of ridicule when it pulled-up to the curb. Who would have thought such a tiny car could contain so many infectious and revolutionary guffaws? Satires, parodies, blue humor, pants to the ground ass-wavings, tea-dumping, Modest Proposal submiting, 7 dirty word spewing, flag burning, frankly impolite, just plain rude and improper expressions of ridicule have either ignited reform, fanned the flames or kicked the corpse to make sure it was dead. - Stephen Jones taken from the net

The thing about using ridicule and mockery though is that it is in fact an art. The constant barrage of such mockery only begets mockery. But the well timed surgical strike of whit can undermine the most compelling of arguments if done well.

I am an advocate of using humor. But not mean spirited humor. Trust me, people get the difference when they are hit by it.

[Evoman]

107. I wield mockery like a blunt pipe.

I'm not smart enough for well timed surgical strikes....

Oh well.

[Az]

108. Well that is certainly preferable to a sharpened pipe

Or even a rusty one.

[Meshuga]

94. A Dialog

That's when you get something accomplished and people come out of the debate more educated and seeing where each side is coming from. Atheists face discrimination and feel like second class citizens so I see an advocacy group or a website educating the public about these issues would be more effective than trying to debunk religion. You might just get a lot of religious people jumping on the bandwagon of atheists when you show the reality of discrimination through real life examples.

I see the aggressively debunking Christianity websites as great source for an atheist to vent and to get ammunition to go after the thick skulls who cannot recognize the problem or do not want the problems to go away. Not the solution to end the discrimination.

Dawkins and Harris bring up great points especially about the myths and generalization that atheists cannot be moral people but if they cross the line and become too overly aggressive toward religious people then they run the risk of only preaching to the choir.

[Evoman]

84. Ah...so you are contributing good will and good discussion to these threads?

See...it sort of belittles your argument about being non-offensive and tolerant when you do the same things others are accused of. Pissing on people threads because you find them boring is not beneath you, I guess.

Hell, I agree with you. I love pissing on other peoples thread....you and me Kwassa, we're two peas in a pod. Well..except for the hypocrasy part...your alone there.

[kwassa]

93. well, you pissed on me first!

and you and others seem to miss the fact that I haven't mocked either Harris or Dawkins, where as the OP was quite insulting towards ALL christians in his mockery of their beliefs. I simply pointed out repetition. No comparison. False analogy.

So, no hypocrisy.

This actually was a productive discussion for awhile, before it went to you-know-where.

[cosmik debris]

96. Two wrongs make a right. Hmmmm

That's kindergarten stuff. At least give me a challenge here.

[Evoman]

101. Huh? Where did I piss on you?

Am I missing something? You said that we had Dawkins and Harris on our side, I said that I was disheartened that whenever we mention them, people make fun of us (not mentioning you at all, by the way), and then you started with your "boredom" comment.

The hypocrasy, Kwassa, is not that you mocked Harris or Dawkins. Its that you complain that people are being insulting, and then you go around and make fun of serious posts. What does "pointing" out repetition do, Kwassa, but belittle those who are trying to have a serious discussion?

The word Jesus, after all, has been repeated several times, hasn't it? What purpose does it serve to point it out, except to mock?

[Az]

56. I doubt you would know the company

unless you had a family member that was in a hospice or other terminal care. It was a public service company that would oversee cases where there may be litigous issues about whether a person was to recieve health care or not. Its not a big public company. It was one that worked behind the scenes.

[Meshuga]

44. Holy crap!

I had to testify in a case like yours and the victim (a former federal government employee) of the discrimination has a strong case and hopefully will at least get to make some noise out of this.

Did you pursue with a lawyer?

[cosmik debris]

48. I filed suit in Federal Court

But I did not have sufficient funds to continue the suit. It usually takes 3-5 years and $50,000 to $100,000 to purchase equality in the land of Liberty and Justice for All.

I should also add that I won the EEOC case, but the DoD ignored the ruling of the Administrative Judge. That is why I had to go to Federal Court.

[Meshuga]

67. That's beyound...

...fucked up! I guess you have no right to liberty and justice since it is too expensive. We as Americans should be ashamed of this. The person in the case I mentioned is fortunate to be in a family full of lawyers. It's hard to believe that he can afford to pick up the tab.

[cain_7777]

98. Waco is wacko with Christians

I went to Baylor and was dumfounded by the ignorance of all the fundies who attended or taught there and I don't know how most of them graduated because they lacked a basic understanding of science. There is no place for an atheist at Baylor especially in a pre-med program. I couldn't stand the stupidity spewed forth by people supposedly of the college level and I decided to leave shortly thereafter and excelled because of it. I found a much better University with a much lower christian population and the students were much smarter. They could actually have a conversation about philosophy, mathmatics, or natural science without invoking, "its just so because god made it that way." So my intolerance of them stems from their intolerance of everything intellectual or not having to do with their god.

[cosmik debris]

100. I guess timing is everything

I graduated from Baylor a long time ago and I found it quite welcoming of my atheism. I had many enjoyable discussions about religion with my fellow students. And only one Religion professor really ticked me off. Their Geology Dept. was also quite good at the time and I would have been a Geology major if it had not required Calculus. And when I took Cultural Anthropology, we studied all religious topics with out the prejudice that might be expected. I find that Baylor's reputation is a lot worse that its reality.

[cain_7777]

102. It Changes a lot year by year but for the most part, fundy University

For the most part the kids in my freshamn class were very close minded. On one occassion we all went to go see "what Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams. Everyone was bitching during the movie because he was saving his wife from hell. Most got up and walked out in protest because they believed it was gods will to put her in hell and Robin William can't change that. The remainder who stayed got pissed off when they were reincarnated at the end, which really popped the tops off these loons. Its funny how these nuts can't grasp fiction which is why they believe the bible. I had one good prof who was fired a year after I left because she openly debated the bible in regards to its plagarism of philosophy and other older religions. She went on to teach at Tulane University and achieved tenor, something the fundies would never do at Baylor because of her religious standing.

[cosmik debris]

104. When I was a Freshman

We all got together to go see Barbarella to get a glimpse of Jane Fonda's tits. Times change.

[cain_7777]

105. LOL

Well, To give Baylor some credit, when I was a freshman they did take out the rule banning "Giration of the mid-section" during school dances or functions. Which is good because I like to girate.

[Az]

46. I have to disagree strongly with this point

There are some areas I have found that are more tolerant to atheists but in general... we are a second class citizen. If we make it known that we are an atheist we can forget about many things involving community activity. We are pariah.

I have lived all my life in the Metro Detroit area. A Dem strong hold in a currently blue state. And I have caught grief for my atheism in one form or another on a regular basis. The only way to avoid it is to hide myself away.

Most atheists do not make themself known to others. We hide relatively easily.

[cosmik debris]

50. This was my only experience with discrimination

And although I would never compare it to the difficulties of African or Hispanic Americans, it did teach me that I am fortunate that my minority status is not advertised in my skin color or my last name.

I can pass for Christian when my safety or security is on the line. And that does happen.

[Az]

51. Thats the thing... we can pass for Christian quite easily

So we don't have as many well publicized incidents. But once we are outed ... its often just a matter of time.

I make it a habit to be quite open about my atheism. But then I am rather gregarious in person and use it as a means to shatter other people's notions about such things. Even so I as I mentioned above I have been targetted on a number of occaisions due to my atheism. It has not cost me a job but then I spent most of my carreer working for the Japanese who tend to be of a different belief set than the one's typically causing us trouble.

[and-justice-for-all]

78. I refuse to hide...

...So I am coming out swingin'. I wear my Atheist T's out in public: "Fight Christ Supremacy" and my yellow and black "AMERICAN ATHEIST" shirt. If they have something to say about it, I have not heard it.

I have no reason to hide, the last thing those religious nuts would suspect is an Atheist is daylight and when they see it its like a deer in headlights. I have had complements on my bumper stickers..

[kwassa]

80. So, do you think there are religious believers who are not nuts?

Or are we all crazy?

[and-justice-for-all]

112. Those who are part of the "Believers Club"..

..that do no attend organized religious services, such as a friend of mine (Who classifies herself as Episcopalian) make her religion personal and private. She is NOT a bigot or hater nor is she ever pushy. Is is not a fundi religious nut in the least bit.

Even though I can deal with her moderate religious stance, even moderates contribute to the bigger issue by making it OK to believe in what is not there, simply contributing to the delusion of religion. I have tried to explain this to her without being harsh, but there is no other way to say "What you doing is wrong" without sounding like an asshole.

A planet full of delusional beings is NOT a good thing.

[cain_7777]

99. I'm proud to be an Atheist

The funny thing is that the christians who flip me off or curse at me because of my antireligious bumper stickers are usually fat and ugly while the ones who compliment me are really good looking women. I'm not saying that all religious people are fat and ugly(only on the inside) and all Atheists are hot chicks, but the ones who I have come across on the road have been.

[Evoman]

103. HAHA..you may have something. I have never met an ugly atheist girl.

NEVER.

Lol..although, I have met plenty of good looking religious girls too. Like my gf.

[and-justice-for-all]

113. Take no ones shit....EVER! nt

[JerseygirlCT]

116. Yes, exactly, Kwassa

The same people who are so eager to be respected for their own views would do well to extend the same respect to others' views.

I don't have to agree with an atheist to fully support his or her right to believe what he or she will. You won't find me name-calling.

[struggle4progress]

68. In my experience, rightwing conservatives are likely to threaten anyone who ..

.. disagrees with them about anything.

As a child in the South in the 1960s, I remember being threatened for disagreeing with a racist statement. I caught some flack as a school kid for refusing to participate in school prayers, and some kids decided I was an atheist and refused to associate with me but I didn't care much because I thought they were jerks. The reactions were worse when I began to express an opinion that maybe Marx had something important to say: this made me a "Commie" and meant that a number of people considered me scum.

The big social put-down in my school years in the South was of the "queer/faggot/homo" variety, a designation applied to anyone who didn't conform to the prevailing stereotypes: girls who didn't meet the beauty standards, guys who didn't care about sports, and so on. The "queer/faggot/homo" accusation was delivered loudly, often in a physically confrontational manner, and it was typically repeated day after day after day. It was unpleasant, but I found saying "Why would you care?" always dispatched the accuser, though the taunt would usually be repeated as the asshole retreated.

After I left that lily-white bastion of Fascism, one black student enrolled briefly in the school. He was regularly spit on and found threatening notes in his locker, and he soon found a different school.

In the 1970s, when I had long hair and a beard, bottles and cans were regularly thrown at me from passing cars; a fellow who assumed I was a drug-dealer offered to shoot me; and I remember the manager at a fast food restaurant threatening to fire an employee because I had said hello to him when placing my order. Around the same time, I had an number of potatoes lobbed at me while I was walking a picket line

In the 1980s, some drunk frat kids tried to intimidate me while I was doing anti-apartheid work on a relatively conservative Northern campus.

For about a decade, from the mid-70s to mid-80's, I was an atheist. It caused me considerably less trouble than some of my other beliefs.

[eagler]

74. A lotta bigotry on both sides

nt

[varkam]

109. I damn near jumped out of my skin when I

opened the city-region section of the herald-leader today at work and saw that article - I thought I was on DU momentarily! My opinion, which is based on both my personal experience as well as the stories of others is that atheists are subject to criticism, disdain, threats, and even violence on occasion simply by virtue of what they believe. Usually, it's at the hands of (supposedly) God-fearing, forgiving Christians.

I used to be afraid of identifying myself as an atheist because of the backlash I expected. Now I simply do not care. If someone wishes to criticize, that is their problem. If they want to hold me in disdain or threaten me because I do not live up to their standards (which aren't even theirs to begin with), then I can not stop them.

I do think that atheists being afraid of identifying themselves as such is a problem. We (the collective we) are trapped in the closet by our own fears. It won't be until we stop being afraid of being who we are that we're going to get over this problem we have of being ostracized by our countrymen.

[NMMNG]

111. I wouldn't dare put an atheist bumper sticker on my car

And I'm not 'out' about my atheism. I found out too quickly that it can have it's costs.

[and-justice-for-all]

114. I wore my AMERICAN ATHEIST T-shirt...

..All day yesterday, to the store and other places along with my "GOD IS JUST PRETEND" bumper sticker thats on my car and no one said a word or has said a word to me....I am looking forward to a confrontation, I usually have my armed cop lover with me so I cant wait for someone to say something to me...

It might also be that I have a "SUPPORT LAW ENFORCEMENT" magetic ribbon on my car too...