Atheists' contumely and condescension?

[BurtWorm]

The new atheists fail too often simply for want of charm or skill. Twenty-first century atheism hasn't found its H.G. Wells or its George Bernard Shaw, men who flattered their audiences, excited them and persuaded them by making them feel intelligent. Here is Sam Harris, for instance, addressing those who wonder if destroying human embryos in the process of stem cell research might be morally dicey: "Your qualms...are obscene."

The atheists say that they are addressing believers. Rationalists all, can they believe that believers would be swayed by such contumely and condescension? They seem instead to be preaching to people exactly like themselves—a remarkably incurious elite.

<Article is reproduced (and critiqued) in full at Pharyngula.org>

The above is part of an op-ed piece by Sam Schulman (whoever he is) that appeared in the Wall Street Journal. PZ Myers of Pharyngula.org says it represents the latest wave of anti-atheistic backlash in which believers scold "the new atheists" for being too mean to be heard.

I'm just posting it so I can put "contumely" in the subject line. :evilfrown:

[Der Blaue Engel]

1. Oh, please.

As if believers are ever going to be swayed, no matter how nice the argument. This particular atheist has no interest in swaying anyone, anyway. I believe people can think for themselves, whether I happen to think they're delusional or otherwise.

[NoodleyAppendage]

2. What a bunch of bullsh*t. As current society dictates, the reasoned approach failed.

I love the works of Shaw and Wells, but the reasoned approach has failed to bring peoples to our side.

I'm in full support of calling people dumbasses for thinking the world is less than 6000 years old; eschewing science in favor of superstition; and generally failing to contribute anything to modern society and our predicament on Earth.

It is NOT elitism to denegrate Dark Ages thinking! Since when should smart, enlightened people apologize for not being stupid?????

J

[phantom power]

3. It's true, we're meanies. Being told I'm a hell-bound deviant makes me that way.

[trotsky]

4. PZ has a great commentary.

We should purge our culture of the unearned deference given religiously-motivated ideas. This doesn't mean religion should be banned, but that, for instance, we'd be better off without all that foolish support given to dogma that leads to repression of homosexuals, artificially dictated roles for men and women, the banning of information about sex and contraceptives.

(Emphasis added.)

[Silent3]

9. Purging our culture of unearned deference to religion

To me, that's the most important thing we can do -- strip religion of its special hands-off, must-use-kid-gloves status. We've got to start treating religion just like any other concept in human politics and philosophy -- which means everyone's got the right to their beliefs, the right to speak their minds, freedom of conscience ...and... has to put up with pretty blunt talk from others who think their ideas are nuts.

Being brash and insulting probably isn't going to change minds of devoted believers -- but then again, using gentle diplomatic persuasion and charm probably won't be effective either. If you judge what atheists say by the standard of how effective you imagine their words might be in changing the minds of devoted believers, then you might as well give it all a grade of F from the start, without bothering to listen to what's said, be it soothing or savage, reasonable or rabid.

What's most important about atheist rhetoric is:

1) Letting fellow atheists know they aren't alone.
2) Letting people who are just on the edges of religious belief, who might just be going through the motions because they were raised religiously and never thought about the alternatives, know that there's nothing so special about religion that they should feel bad about leaving it behind.
3) Making religion less appealing to those who aren't already in one, but who might easily be sucked into one, by reducing the undeserved aura of respectability and goodness surrounding religion which overly polite and deferential atheists, among others, have unwittingly helped to create and foster.

[trekbiker]

17. Yes... and start taxing the bastards. I'm sick of

these grandiose monuments to gigantic egos like the televangelists. Or that obscene Crystal cathedral (Schuller??). Tax all religions/churches, etc. like any other business

[DeSwiss]

24. Here, here n/t

:applause:

[pansypoo53219]

5. the form of the word 'contumely' is

horribly misused.
i, the language GOD(well the quiz said i was, but i am really good at multiple choice)says fie on putz. if anything it should be contumaciousness. contumely? that is wrong.

[BurtWorm]

6. It's not my favorite word, but it is used correctly here as far as I can tell.

It's from contumelie (fr.), which in turn is from contumelia (l.), both of which are nouns.

[cosmik debris]

7. The most popular use of the word

Comes from Hamlet's soliloquy:

For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despis'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin?

[BurtWorm]

10. Did you know the preferred pronunciation is with the accent on the first syllable?

CONtumely. Or conTUME(uh)ly (when pronounced with four syllables).

I was shocked to learn this.

[Danger Mouse]

8. Wtf is contumely?

I personally don't think harris gives a shit whether theists agree with him or not.
That's the author's silly asumption, that Harris should care.
It's not like he's going to convince a fundie anyway, so why make the effort?

[toddaa]

11. I wish I was contumelious

[Evoman]

12. I find mockery works extremely well.

Does it change minds? Meh, not always...but then neither does reason or gentle discussion. It really doesn't. But if you mock and ridicule, and make someone feel incredibly embarrased for believing something stupid, then you may just have some sort of effect.

Don't believe me? Example:

Person 1: I LOVE the backstreet boys?

Person 2: Well, its nice you like their sound, but their ability to play instruments pales in comparison to Metallica.

Person 1: So, I like them! They are cute and sing good.

Person 2: I suppose to some extent...but let me introduce you the The Unforgiven...a great song about...

Person 1: No thanks, I'll stick to the backstreet boys. They are so cute.

NEXT DAY

Person 1: I LOVE the backstreet boys?

Person 3: The backtstreet boys? What, are you fucking stuck five years ago. Nobody listens to that shit anymore. Why do you want to listen to the back door boys anyways....they sing like Eunuchs. Metallica is whats cool now.

Person 1: Oh, but I'm going to their concert with my mothe...

Person 3: Have fun at the concert with your mommy....Meanwhile, I'll be moshing at metallica.

Later at home

Mom: Hi honey...are you still excited about the Backstreet boys concert next week?

Person 1: I don't like them any more. Can we get tickets to metallica instead?


Hehe.

The truth is...the only way to get people to listen is to ruthlessly and completely demolish their position. Then, when they stick to their guns, you make them feel stupid. If they don't feel that what they believe is stupid and doesn't make sense, then why would they change their minds?

Not that I am overly concerned with changing peoples minds. I quite simply mock because I don't have respect for beliefs, and I don't like to pretend I do. If a Right wing person says something dumb about politics or welfare, I don't show respect for their beliefs. I don't act like a mr. Nice guy either. I ridicule and disrespect their beliefs. If a racist approaches me with their stupid and nonsense opinions, I mock and ridicule. If someone approaches me with some dumb thoughts on religion, I mock and ridicule.

I suppose if a person doesn't want to be mocked and ridiculed, then they are better off not approaching me with their dumb religious
beliefs.

On edit: Your still better off not mocking and ridiculing someone who is bigger than you. Thats why the internet is awesome...nobody can beat you up for being a mean, new Atheist. HA!

[toddaa]

13. Metallica?

Talk about setting yourself up for mockery and embarrassment.

[Evoman]

14. Haha...I am not person 3, let me tell you.

I was going to say Poison or Glass Tiger, but I figured that would be going to far.

[toddaa]

15. Why didn't you pick Atheist?

A right proper death metal band with a catchy name.

[Az]

16. Actually discussion does work

Just not as fast as some would wish.

Look. Forget about right and wrong. The problem here is figuring out how minds work and in particular how belief works. What we are talking about is shifting a person's mind. Changing their mind. Think about it. How often do you change your mind about critical matters in your life?

Changing belief typically does not happen in a single conversation. So expecting someone to give up a long held belief after being told they are deluded is perhaps a delusion in and of itself.

This does not mean that discussion is pointless. Its about accumulation. Ideas tend to stick only after repeated exposure in a positive light. Its sort of like trust(actually its exactly like trust).

New ideas that oppose the dominant thinking of a person need to take time to intergrate themself in their mind. That is if they do at all. It requires finding connection with other ideas that are already accepted in the mind and growing from there.

Its interesting about the mind. The more we learn and experience the less rational we become. This is because as we learn things they enter in as emotional understanding of a matter and become sort of a gut level understanding. Gut thinkind doesn't require all the messing about in logic that rational thought does thus it is far more efficient. So as we grow older and wiser we become less and less reliant on reason. Time has tested the ideas we have and they function.... whether they are right or wrong.

So when you are dealing with someone that has strong beliefs on a matter it is not always with just reason you need to approach them with. Sometimes you have to address their gut feeling and find a way to change it.

[Evoman]

18. I agree with you, somewhat.

In person, I can use my considerable charisma to change minds, as well as rhetorical tricks that affect a persons emotions. I do it quite frequently in some venues...its almost like the process of seduction. But if I attempted to convince people in that manner about religion, how would that make me different that a person attempting to convert to somebody to christianity? If you can't use reason, then you've already lost.

I don't want to convert people. I don't want to appeal to their emotions.

I have no interest in emotional conversions.

[MistressOverdone]

19. Personally

I get up behind them, place my hands over their head and do a mind meld.

But I'm batting for the other side. In a contumely sort of way, that is.

[Silent3]

21. Using a mind meld to turn someone into...

...a Backstreet Boys fan? That's pure EVIL!

[Az]

20. Yes you do want to convert people

Everyone does. Its why we talk to one another. We both want to convert them to our way of thinking and we want to learn from their way of thinking if it fits our way. The difference is how stridently we want to act of these basic drives. Fundametalist Evegelical sects put this natural tendency into overdrive. But even the most hard bitten skeptic wishes others would see things their way to some extent and attempts to leave their print on the world.

Its human nature.

Everyone wants to convert everyone else. Civility however has taught us to respect other people's private lives. But this is a variable rather than a fixed degree of respect.

[MistressOverdone]

22. Well, of course, it would be a better world

if everyone were like me. I know that. But I try not to act upon it too often.

lol

You have a good point. It is human nature...we don't like dissimilarity. It breaches the continuum or something.

[Evoman]

23. I think the proper term is deconvert. Anyhow,

you have managed to convince me of the rightness of your position by calm and reasoned discussion. I bow to your superior argument. I suppose, anyways, that both peer pressure (due to mocking) and appealing to emotions are both a sort of emotional manipulation. It still makes me uncomfortable that reason does not convince others, and that you have to hit the emotional part of their brain before you can change a mind, however true it is.

I suppose that its because thats not how my mind tends to work. If someone makes a case based on reason, logic, and evidence, I will often change my mind. Sometimes I do it so suddenly that it catches people by suprise.

[shrike]

26. Actually, Az, I think the need to "convert" someone

is one of the reasons the world is in the trouble it's in.

I think we'd all be better off we could learn to leave each other the hell alone. But that's just me.

I also think our need to "convert" is a way to expand our own comfort zone. Someone I used to know said that people want to live and be with people like themselves because it's a more comfortable way to exist. The older I get, the more I believe that he was right. Trouble is, in this polygot world we run into people "not like us" all the time. In fact, it can even be very difficult to find "people like you," depending on where it is you live.

[redqueen]

36. Nooooo...

Well, I don't think so. I can see how that might be the motivator now and then, or even often or frequently... but not always.

I am like that in GD... I will surely be during the primaries... but certainly not here. Here I am only interested in discussing ideas and sharing insights... to better understand how we see things differently. I'm sure I'm not the only one...

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. You do have to give them something to remember.

I was in discussion with a fundie who insisted we are in the end days, and the 1st red heifer had been found and bla bla bla.

I said it's not gonna happen. It was all myth, and wrongly interpreted myth at that.

I went on to say, that if god brooks no opposition, then he would not allow faith in him to be challenged. I stood before the guy and raised my arms saying "God, you don't exist. You have never existed. I defy you to strike me down, here, as I stand. Failure to do that will prove to your follower that you are a myth, and there will be no end of days."

The guy actually took two steps back. I don't know what he expected.

The point is, while a congenial conversation would be quickly forgotten, there's no way this guy is going to forget the theatricallity as I spread my arms and challenged god before him. Sure, he'll rationalize it away, but he'll not forget it, nor the fact that I was not struck down.

[shrike]

25. Sorry, that argument wouldn't work with me

But then I've listened to both the BB and Metallica, and I hate to admit that I like BB better. Though I wouldn't spend money to go see either of them.

And yes, I know you weren't really talking about music.

[Zhade]

28. Your gay joke makes me sad. :-(

Your "Have fun at the concert with your mommy" comment makes me laugh.

[Evoman]

32. I have to repeat...person three is not me.

I have heard them called the backdoor boys by other people (in ridicule), so thats why I put it in there. I deeply apologize if I have offended you or any gay DUers. I did not see this message until now, so I can't edit it. I'm sorry :(

[Donald Ian Rankin]

27. I think the author and I must be thinking of two different George Bernard Shaws.

The one I've heard of, the celebrated playwrite, could be accused of many things but never in a million years of "flattering his audience". He was as cantankerous and combative and old bastard as one could hope to meet in a month of Sundays.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. Atheists are heavy duty thinkers in my experience

I teach gifted kids. They are not all warm and cuddly folks. They can be obnoxious and challenging. Gotta love 'em anyway.

[cyborg_jim]

31. I'm entirely lovable

As long as you aren't trying to have a serious discussion with me.

[Evoman]

33. I'm pretty damn cuddly.

I'm latin, and we "have a way"...and if I met any of you, I have to warn you...I would probably walk up to you and give you a hug in greeting, lol. In fact, I would almost say I have a gift for detecting and understand the emotions of others...I'm not the cool, logical, sardonic Evoman I pass for on the internets.

Although when I get into discussions or debates, I get pretty cold and uber rational.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. Well, now, you two have made me think

actually my students are very huggy and lovey dovey as long as we aren't having a heated discussion about something. Then it's Nellie bar the door! They'll smack down their own granny with logic if necessary. Kind of Spock and Tuvok rolled up into one.

[cyborg_jim]

35. I prefer Data or the borg for obvious reasons

[Orrex]

37. Do schools still call such children "gifted?"

Ugh. I can think of few ways that a school can set a bright child on the road to disaster more readily than calling that child "gifted." It can set up unrealistic expectations, instill a gross fear of failure, and generally target the child for mockery all through school.

Perhaps this has changed since I was school-age, many moons ago? And I'm not saying whether I was or wasn't sectioned off with the "gifted" kids, either!

[NAO]

38. New Atheists are not dis-em boweling and burring Christians alive

...Christians have NO RIGHT to talk about being "too mean". Christians have perpetrated more cruelty and violence on the human race than Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Kahn, and Pol Pot combined.

After nearly 2,000 years of stupefying oppression - and now their absurd irrational beliefs are being exposed as frauds by science - and they say we are being "too mean"?

How mean is it to tell people that god is going to torture them in hell forever and ever unless they worship him for torturing himself (as his son).

Christianity is a cruel, bloody, barbaric superstition and the world will be better off when it is gone for good.