Atheists challenge the religious right.

[and-justice-for-all]

'Growing religious influence in the US government has led some nontheists to take positions some describe as 'secular fundamentalism.'

By Jane Lampman | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

For some time, the religious right has decried "secular humanism," a philosophy that rejects the supernatural or spiritual as a basis for moral decisionmaking. But now, nonbelievers are vigorously fighting back.
Only a small percentage of Americans admit to being nontheists (between 2 and 9 percent, depending on the poll), but that equates to many millions. And religionists' role in debates over stem-cell research and evolution vs. intelligent design - as well as radical religion in world conflicts - have galvanized some atheists to mount a counteroffensive.

More: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0104/p13s01-lire.html

(I feel that the "religious influence" in US Government has taken a massive blow, will continue to demenish and its posion will work its way out of our society.)

[Erika]

1. The thought that religion has morality superiority is a farce

Give me a person who believes in helping others because it is the "moral" thing to do rather than the religious thing to do, anytime.

It's personal accountability and expectations, not some forced program with a promise of a speculative reward...for doing the right thing.

[Skittles]

3. you know it, Erika

:thumbsup:

[Ecumenist]

40. Your statement explains exactly why I always I tell

people that I am a Christian but am NOT RELIGIOUS. Religion just means force of habit, quickly spinning away from God and becoming too susceptible to interpretation by other idiotic human beings.

[MistressOverdone]

41. I honestly can't say what the heck

I would behave like without my religious beliefs. I'm afraid I might just be a latent marauder or something. Maybe not. But sometimes I get these urges...

[Zhade]

50. Did you mean to say marauder? Because that's an awesome job!

j/k

Seriously though, the fact that you aren't out marauding is probably not due to your religion - after all, you chose the religion that helps you cope with the urges, so you're capable of repressing your marauding instinct.

(And thanks for giving me the chance to use a phrase like "marauding instinct"!)

[MistressOverdone]

52. Yes, I mean marauder

It's a common word around here. High school mascots, for heaven's sake! Great role model, huh?

[Zhade]

49. It's always more respectable that something right is done just because it's the right thing to do.

If religion happens to come along for the ride, well, okay, but let's not pretend it's the source of morality.

Good call!

[Porcupine]

2. I'm personally sick of the Christian delusion....

that somehow peace and love means prisons and death squads. That pornography, people having enjoyable consensual sex, is an abomination while torture flicks are something to take your kids to.

I'm sick of having to shut up while people claim they are Christians and advocate the mass death of others ten minutes later. I'm sick of their wars. I'm sick of their frauds. I'm sick of their bullying. I'm sick of the constant lies.

I think some strongly voiced arguements on the other side are needed for balance.

[lligrd]

4. Hey, Not All Christians Think That Way

or behave that way, you know. I think some here on DU may be guilty of stereotyping. That said, I hardly think that many religious leaders believe a word of what they spew. In fact, most of them are probably athiests in reality. Why else would they dare incur the wrath of Jesus by whoring his teachings like they do? Not that I think all athiests are evil ;-)

[sam sarrha]

5. the Discussion is about extremists.. that was stated, your "Stereotyping" comment is questionable

the discussion is about morality.. which can be defined as a 'CONCERN' for good and bad or CONFORMING to someone else's view of good and bad..

i believe we are discussing the creeping Christian Mafia type religious *Fascisn..=*union of organized Influence and government=

stereo typing isn't always bad, it is a function of the Conventional Mind, a survival instinct..
stereo typing and Bigotry are not the same thing.. if you get lost and turn into a neighborhood and see a lot of Prostitutes and drug dealers and people wearing gang colors making strange hand signals to a large group of loitering people also wearing colors and baggy pants, while pointing at you.. are you going to stereotype or get the hell out of there..

Morally are you going to tell them jesus can same them from a life of hell or work for social justice and programs to help their children and clean up the neighborhood

[lligrd]

9. Was Just Trying To Point Out

that there are some of us who really do believe in the principles of Christianity and who do not believe in the least in what the right professes Christianity is. I do realize that many Athiests share the same values that Jesus taught even though they don't believe in God. I myself, am not a fan of organized religion, at least not any to any that I have thus far been exposed. I really am jsut sick of the right usurping religion and patriotism as their exclusive right and in doing so defaming both.

[trotsky]

11. Maybe it's the other way around.

Jesus shares many of the same values that non-religious and alternate religious philosophers taught, some centuries before him.

[Zhade]

53. "What's original about Christianity isn't good, and what's good isn't original."

I think you nailed it, t.

[izzie]

7. I think a lot of Christians use reason. It is the nuts that got Bush's ear.

I frankly did not know we had so many nuts in this country and I did not think a man who had so much education would bend to them like Bush has. He has used those people like they used him.

[lligrd]

10. True

I find it hard to believe that too.

[Ecumenist]

6. Porcupine,

That's just it... They aren't Christian. These aren't Christian at all. The horrors they espouse make them about as Christian as my brown skin makes me ethnically Scandinavian. To denounce those types as apostates is putting it mildly.

[trotsky]

12. And they say the same thing about you.

Bottom line is, you're both Christians. The label just refers to what you profess to believe. There is no automatic rule that says if you're a bad or disagreeable or delusional person, you can't possibly be a Christian.

[Evoman]

16. Not only that, but I think a majority of religious christians

over the last 2 thousand years would better identify with the fundies, then with the liberal christians. If anyones a real christian, its the fundies.

Not that I believe in this True Christian (TM) bullshit anyways

[bryant69]

17. Just as there is no rule that says a reasonable intelligent person

can't be a Christian.

Bryant

[kwassa]

dupe

[kwassa]

18. He has the right to define Christian the way he chooses.

He doesn't have to follow your definition, trotsky. If he decides that what these people represent is not Christianity, he can certainly make that judgment.

I know this is your pet issue, but Christianity is a reasonably subjective term, and no one makes the rules or makes the requirments, though many think they do. You don't get to make those rules, either.

Or let me put it this way: you can make a rule, but you can't enforce it, so it comes down to the same thing.

[trotsky]

19. LOL

Sure he does, kwassa. And you get the luxury of defining Christians your way. And then every Christian is a sect unto him- or herself.

You see, unlike the term atheist, "Christian" actually DOES have to include some minimum qualification, or it's a meaningless term. And in your favorite dictionary style, that minimum qualification appears to be "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ." By that definition, you, he, Bush, Falwell, Randall Terry, Eric Rudolph, and Hitler are all Christians.

And of course meanwhile, you'll feel free to enforce whatever definition of atheism you choose onto whatever atheist you choose, and won't see a darn bit of hypocrisy in it.

[kwassa]

21. Oh, so you just set the minimum qualification? Fascinating.

and as you are wont to do, you choose the single definition that appeals to you.

Here are a few more for you:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/christian

Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
–noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth 1.Brethren.
10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
11. a male given name.


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source Chris·tian (krĭs'chən) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1.Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2.Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3.Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4.Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5.Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.
1.One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2.One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

[trotsky]

22. Which of those do you like, kwassa?

How do YOU define "Christian"? I just picked the first listed; it was the simplest and most appropriate.

I suppose you like your #4, but that one just begs the question of what is a "proper" spirit - breaking down into a pointless and totally unresolvable discussion over just what it means to be a "follower of Jesus Christ". It doesn't solve the root issue here - because again, Jerry Falwell will simply point back at you and say YOU'RE not "exhibiting a proper spirit."

Can you come up with something workable, kwassa?

[kwassa]

23. It is completely resolvable

4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.

trotsky:
" suppose you like your #4, but that one just begs the question of what is a "proper" spirit - breaking down into a pointless and totally unresolvable discussion over just what it means to be a "follower of Jesus Christ". It doesn't solve the root issue here - because again, Jerry Falwell will simply point back at you and say YOU'RE not "exhibiting a proper spirit." "

I think the proper spirit is a fairly obvious thing to discover, if one simply looks at Christ and his teachings. Love, inclusiveness, charity. Falwell is none of these, as many of the fundies aren't. Getting hung up on doctrine or interpretations of theology is really not the central to Christianity, either.

I also will not lose sleep if Jerry Falwell doesn't agree with me.

[trotsky]

25. Completely resolvable? LMAO

Which is why there are umpteen hundred different Christian sects in the world, right? Because it's so very easy to see just what "love, inclusiveness, and charity" mean as Jesus taught them. Cursing fig trees, being rude to one's mother, telling followers to sell all their possessions, or cut off body parts. Yep, all very clear and understandable. Like being gay is OK. Oh wait, Jesus didn't say anything about that. War, definitely not OK. Oops, didn't quite rule that out either. OK, slavery for sure is bad! Well, can't be sure about that one either, Jesus never came out and said that.

I guess all the world's problems in Christianity can be solved! Just call up kwassa, who KNOWS and will tell you what the TRUE Christianity is all about. You got a hotline in to Jesus himself, kwassa? Or do you allow for the possibility that you - EVEN YOU - might be wrong about an item in Christian doctrine?

And you mocked me for supposedly putting myself in the role of determining what a Christian was. :rofl:

[kwassa]

28. Sorry you don't get it trotsky

but I never thought that you would.

[trotsky]

33. kwassa, the entire history of Christianity shows that there has NEVER been

agreement on what exactly the teachings of Jesus Christ were. You could not possibly be more off-base with your assertions. No, I don't get it. I have a problem "getting" nonsense.

[kwassa]

36. Exactly, no, but general agreement, yes.

[trotsky]

37. And what exactly is that "general agreement"?

Please enlighten me. Perhaps listing exactly what Martin Luther and the Catholic Church "generally agreed" on would be a good start.

[trotsky]

47. *crickets chirping*

Hope you haven't forgotten about my question, kwassa!

[BurtWorm]

27. ...inclusiveness...?!

"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven...But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Mt 18:3-7

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Rich people don't go to heaven. Is it OK to be rich? What must you do to be saved? What the Bible says about rich people 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Mt 19:23-24

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." Mt 19:29

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. What must you do to be saved? Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." Mt 22 11-14

[kwassa]

29. Yes, inclusiveness.

Got a problem with that?

oh, and what do you think a "parable" is?

[BurtWorm]

30. "Do not give what is holy to dogs, nor cast your pearls before swine..."

"...lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

PS: Real inclusive message there, Jesus. ;)

[kwassa]

31. I should take His advice.

Most of your quotes have nothing to do with the idea of inclusiveness, by the way, including the last one.

Is this Random Biblical Quote time?

[BurtWorm]

32. Which quotes of Jesus reflect "inclusivesness?"

Any pop right into mind?

[kwassa]

35. there is this inclusive "Sermon on the Mount" thing

3 Blessed are the Poor in Spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

4 "Blessed are those who Mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 "Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 "Blessed are those who Hunger and Thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 "Blessed are the Merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 "Blessed are the Pure in Heart, for they shall see GOD.

9 "Blessed are the Peacemakers,for they shall be called Sons (and Daughters) of God.

10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven

11 "Blessed areYou when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

12 "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven,
for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you!
Matthew 5

[trotsky]

38. Ooh, how about that Sermon on the Mount thing?

Let's read a little further:

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

More inclusiveness, I see...

On edit: Yowza, there's even more.

31 "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 "But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

[BurtWorm]

39. His overall message is still one of exclusion.

The Sermon on the Mount is more a message of hope for a certain audience, including those who count themselves among the Meek, the Merciful, the Persecuted for Reighteousness' sake. But if you go deeper into Christ's message, there's no hope for anyone--including all of the above--who doesn't believe in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior of Mankind. Isn't that right?

[Meshuga]

42. It is a message of inclusion

But there is a catch! You have to see him as your lord and savior. Those who don't (like me) are going to sizzle for ETERNITY in hell. What a loving guy and what a message BTW! :-)

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clevenger]

14. Anyone can claim to be a Christian, and who can prove they're not?

Christianity in America has become the fast-food of religions. There's no study or effort necessary to attain "Christianhood", you can just claim to be one, and nobody can prove otherwise.

[kwassa]

24. but no one has to accept that claim, either.

[BurtWorm]

26. Welcome, Clevenger!

:toast:

Nice post.

[Clevenger]

34. Thanks. I'm happy to be here.

[jgraz]

46. The pernicious part of the religion is not those who claim to be Christians

but those who claim that others are not. It allows the worst practices of the religion to continue unabated, while "moderate" followers of the very same doctrine are allowed to deny responsibility for helping to perpetuate a violent, authoritarian belief system.

[Zhade]

51. I think the ability to believe in things for which there is no evidence...

...is a vestigial detriment to humanity.

But not all believers are as you describe them, and it's unfair to say they all act as you've suggested.

[ClintonTyree]

8. I'm willing to bet......

that the "between 2 and 9 percent" figure is way off. Many people will not admit to being "non-theists" because of the social stigma involved. This is a christian country: god, country, Mom, apple pie and Chevrolet, right? :sarcasm:

After years of study and deliberation I've come to the conclusion that there is no god. At least not in any humanly defined or understood respect. Organized religion is a sham, a con game.

[54anickel]

48. Seems pretty low to me as well, especially if you follow the author's

link to the Wikipedia definition of nontheism. The first entry is "nontheism in Christianity" and one of the entries under that is the Jesus Seminar (which I find fascinating and was introduced to in a "church sponsored" Chirstian theology class).

So what exactly is nontheism in the context of this article? Following the author's link it's those "damned liberal Christians"...

Certain liberal Christian theologians, including Episcopal bishop John Shelby Spong and Anglican bishop John A.T. Robinson define a "nontheistic God" as "the ground of all being" rather than as a personal divine being (in Greek Θεος).

Not sure what to make of the author's use of term and link to nontheism, but I find it very misleading.

[BurtWorm]

13. "Secular fundamentalism?"

What a bullshit term! You can't have a fundamentalism without a doctrine to assert as a foundation for **all action**. What is the doctrine of secularism?

[Evoman]

15. Its a fucking ridiculous meme....spin that is meant to make atheists

look as bad a fundie christians. Its pure bullshit. Are atheists RESPONDING strongly....not in my opinion, but the argument can be made. This fundamentalism word is being used in the wrong sense....christians aren't fundamental because they are extreme, they are fundamental because they believe in the literal word of the bible. That extremism usually comes with that viewpoint is another issue.

Until atheists start blowing up churches,killing ministers, or start advocated the death of all christians (like the real fundies tend to do), we can not be called extremists either. Offering a strong opinion as a response to the Christian takeover is not extremism.

Got it?


edit: Burtworm, this rant is not pointed at you..just wanted to make sure you understood that :)

[Porcupine]

43. Allied with the "Unitarian Jihad". nt.

.

[moggie]

44. As far as I can tell

In this context, "fundamentalist" means "unapologetic". Or, if you prefer, "uppity".

[BurtWorm]

45. Prezackly!

:eyes: