Battlestar Galactica

[YankeyMCC]

I know it seems like an odd title for this group. In case you are not familiar the SciFi channel has revived and revamped this old TV show.

I bring it up here because religion - granted not the religions we have here on Earth but human religions just the same even if they are made up - is playing a key role in the overall plot.

In particular there is a character, Baltar for those who are familiar with the show, who played a role in the destruction of the human home worlds who is (was) atheist. His Cylon, the bad guys for those unfamiliar, handler believes in God and appears to believe she is doing God's will. She (in the form of some delusion in his mind or perhaps implanted technology in his brain) continues to reappear to him and they often fight about his lack of belief. In fact there have already been a couple of times where she has gotten him to plead to god or submit to god's will just as events seemed to be turning against him and then suddenly he is "saved".

If there are enough people here familiar with the story I thought this would be an interesting thing to discuss the themes playing out in this very well done (IMHO) show.

Things like the fact that the predominant religion of the colonists (humans) is polytheists belief. They will say things like "By the Gods!" but the Cylons appear to believe in one "True god."

Also, the Cylons are manufactured beings, made by man in this version of Battlestar Galactica. And now they've found religion? How are they applying that to their creators?

Baltar's conversion or at least his Cylon handler's attempts to conversion - how real are they and what are they driven by? This is a man who is only concerned with himself and will do whatever necessary to survive, is he pleading to god just because he thinks it'll save his butt (maybe just because his handler will here him do so) and even if that is a sincere plea to a god he now accepts what is the value of such a plea - simply to save oneself?

[w13rd0]

1. I'm at an unfair advantage...

...in that I've seen all of Season 1, but it's a great show :)

I'd have a hard time speculating. Is the series about the perils of fanatacism as embodied in the Cylons? If the Cylons are "God's chosen", why try so hard to be like "lesser creatures" (humans)?

[Ready4Change]

3. They've left open some interesting doors at this point.

Baltars handler in the last episode said she was concerned for his soul. An interesting direction that could go would having the Cylons be religious fanatics who believe that the most important thing is the saving of human souls, even in light of their own lack of souls.

They could see themselves as , literally, Gods tools.

[plasticwidow]

13. Interesting Point...

Goes back to the question, what was their original programming. Remember, they were originally created by humans. They could have seen us as their creators, their Gods. Then they observed and saw we were flawed, and if we were flawed, then that would justify their destruction of the human race. Maybe their "cleansing" of the human race. Sort of brings up Hal in Space Odyssey 2001. He mal-functioned. The original programming in Hal was to protect, assist and aid the humans. Then the government installed a new main directive, The Mission Must Be Completed At All Costs, Get To Saturn, the humans were expendable. Hence, there was a conflict - Hal was forced to lie - which was something also that went against his primary programming. Hence he went through a psychological breakdown, or programming error of Hal (paranoia) that corrupted his programming. Maybe the Ceylons were even programmed to see the humans as God... so what caused the Ceylons to break ties with humanity. As far as their looking and acting human, maybe humans and the human culture was the only template they had to emulate themselves from. hehehehehehe... certainly an interesting topic here. :)

[Ready4Change]

2. I got your idea of the topic right away.

People who aren't watching Battlestar may not. Ah well.

I've only seen a couple episodes (but I've been very impressed with the writing.) Have any Cylons other than Baltars handler mentioned religion at all? I haven't noticed it, but I've missed some episodes.

My gut says Baltars handler is just using religion as a means to gain control over him. Often people who are strongly opposed to an idea flip to being fanatical about that same idea once convinced. She needs him to create his "cylon detector" for some reason, and perhaps she needs to strongly control him in order to warp his creation somehow?

However, the writing of the show has been strong enough that they might bring in themes beyond just mechanical manipulation of weak willed humans.

I'm curious to see where they take it.

[YankeyMCC]

4. Others have talked about God

The humanoid cylon that Adama met ,and ended up killing, on the weapon's depot said something to the effect that God would judge the humans.

And the Cylons on Caprica observing Helo mentioned God, I think.

[w13rd0]

5. All of them...

...mention "God" at some point or another. Most interestingly, Boomer displays skepticism about "God's plan".

[Ready4Change]

14. Ah, I missed that. Thanks.

That's what I get for missing episodes. :)

[w13rd0]

15. You probably didn't...

...and it was a small point, so I didn't include a <SPOILER ALERT>. skyOne baybee, although I watch the episodes now running on SciFi channel, just as a sign of appreciation.

EDIT TO INCLUDE SPOILER ALERT

[PsychoDad]

6. Been wondering about this myself.

In the last epi, Baltar's handler mentions that there is "only one God" or something to that effect.

As "machines" or at least partly so, do they communicate with each other via wireless? (for lack of a better term) Does this constant connection to other cylons create a hive mind?

Could this "hive mind" be what the Cylons consider "God"?

[YankeyMCC]

8. The wireless question

Yes, I've been wondering about their ability to communicate that way myself.

Particularly I've wondered if the version of Num 6 in Baltar's head was sending messages to other Cylons to set up the situations that threatened Baltar. The Olympic Carrier capture when that other scientist was going to expose him was on that ship, the sudden appearance of a copy of herself with the damming disk.

Which is an interesting question to bring this out of just a discussion of the show. If one group of people considers themselves following the true will of god, and assuming part of that will is the conversion of others or saving of their souls in some way, how far will they go to do this? I know people have done extreme things, good and bad, in the name of this cause. What I'm really trying to ask is how they perceive their actions.

In the show another survivor tries to contact the president to implicit Baltar in the Cylon attack. This person is on a ship named the Olympic Carrier. Baltar's handler, Number 6, tells him this is happening because Baltar had denied the existence of god. When Baltar submits, asks for forgiveness for doubting, for being blasphemous, suddenly the Olympic Carrier is captured and then later destroyed (through an interesting twist).

Number 6 says this was all part of god's plan for Baltar. That he can take away his grace, saving Baltar, as quickly as he gave it.

Now clearly this was all arranged somehow, but even if it was arranged do the Cylons still believe the truth is that this was all part of god's plan? If they are the agents of god then even when they contrive to con a person, in this case Baltar, they must still see this as god's will and therefore truth.

[plasticwidow]

11. Certainly seems to confirm...

the supposition that there is a "hive-like" mind, with some limitations. Apparently there are some delays in the relaying of said information to other Ceylons stationed elsewhere, distance being a factor at least if nothing else. But it is interesting, the point you bring up, about the whole Olympic Carrier episode, and then Number 6 and the "duplicate" showing up with the disk. That was pretty quick actually. And the rate at which the Ceylons track the humans and appear in the same "space" as BSG. So there must be some sort of hive-like connection. Makes one wonder.

As far as your other comment,

"...If one group of people considers themselves following the true will of god, and assuming part of that will is the conversion of others or saving of their souls in some way, how far will they go to do this? I know people have done extreme things, good and bad, in the name of this cause. What I'm really trying to ask is how they perceive their actions."

IMHO, (and this is just a personal thought) I think they will go to extremes until what they are doing shakes up their very own foundation of "right and wrong" in their own minds. This is then where the struggle really starts, justifying what they do and their own belief. Its the turning point, at which point, there is no turning back once its reached. I would think this would have led to many suicides and self-destructive behaviors for those who could not face up to what they have done. Those who choose to continue down the path of fanaticism at this point, they feel justified and close their minds to any other introspective investigation. Its a good question, and I don't think there's any right answers. Its for each individual who has been or is on that road, to answer.

[plasticwidow]

7. Replicas

Remember though, that the Ceylons are like dopplegangers, who when taking on a human form, retains all the memories of the human. In many episodes we've seen where the human is really a Ceylon, they have all the memories, or at least most, of their human counterpart. Hence, they most probably have at least "learned" about their religious proclivities, and their individual idiosyncrasies towards or against religion. And apparently the Ceylon within can manipulate the human without, without the human part of them even realizing it. It sounds more like a manipulative ploy to mess with the human counterpart, unless they have adopted the way of thinking as far as their belief in some sort of God, but because of their, like Psychodad said, hive-like mind (wonder how they manage to let an entire fleet know where they are and communicate over vast distances of space that the humans have to "jump" constantly to outrun them) they have "adapted" their hive-like mind to believe in "one God", as a hive-like mind most probably would, instead of many different Gods that apparently these humans have. I do find the correlations in the religious belief systems interesting, that the humans believe in more than one God.. and it seems like as a whole united belief, too. (I wonder if the individuals in the "human race" believe in the same Gods) And the Ceylons, who seems to believe in only "One God". Not too many religions in our present day society in real life, have that belief or pantheon. And is this belief in "One God" mean.. theirs is the only God.. or does it mean there is only One God, as in no matter what anyone thinks, whatever/whoever they are praying to or refer to, its all still the same God who listens and hears, etc. Any thoughts anyone?

[YankeyMCC]

9. dopplegangers?

I didn't get the impression they are copies of actual humans.

They are unique indivduals who seem to have developed their own idea of god, perhaps derived somehow from the human religions.

I expect there are more religions in the human society than the one we've seen so far and probably some montheists among them.

[plasticwidow]

10. hmmm.. not sure

Not literal dopplegangers I don't think, but I was wondering if they were actually copied from actual humans, not just cosmetically. The copies seem to have the memories of the "person" they are taking the form of. So I wonder if those memories are retained and the Ceylon learns from them, some sort of mindmeld.. I have no clue. hehehehehe.. just brainstorming here. Remember, the one is serving as a pilot, so being in the military she would have to have some sort of background, birth certificate, etc. So maybe the current human looking ceylons are copies of people who used to be humans, I dunno. To be able to insinuate people into society like that, they would have to be able to fabricate a past beyond simply the memories of a person, since memories can simply be programmed in. If the Ceylons had replaced "real" people with Ceylons, and imprinted the real person's memories and experiences over their Ceylon programming, then they wouldn't have only look-alikes, they would have the real person's past to validate their existance, as in Boomer's case. To join the Colonial Military, one would have to imagine that she has or had a traceable past, i.e. birth certificates, school, etc. It would be easier for the Ceylons to infiltrate humanity by replacing real humans where appropriate rather than simply trying to insert Ceylons with no demonstratable past.

[Dr Ron]

12. No athiests in the battle field?

There are a few possible explanations for Baltar's apparent religious conversion.

It could be a case of his fear actually making him try praying out of despiration. Perhaps he really believes at this point.

Maybe he is playing Pascal's Wager. He has nothing to lose if there is no god, but a chance at being saved if there is.

Another possibility is that he knows this is what the Cylon Babe wants to hear, and he realizes only she can save him.

The reasons for the Cylons being religious is an interesting question. On one level, I bet that it was done to stimulate discussion as obviously you'd think it would be more likley that the humans be religious than the machines. It will be interesting to see if they provide an explanation in the shows for this.

[Beetwasher]

16. That's Why The Show FUCKING RULES!!!

It's tackling some deep, deep questions!

Who knows where the plot will lead? Perhaps the Cylons are just using the concept of god as a tool to manipulate Baltar and the humans? Perhaps there is an overriding, powerful, singular computer intelligence driving the Cylons and IT fancies itself a "god" and has programmed all Cylons to believ so, and they've become fanatical about it...Etc.

The possibilities are endless and AWESOME!! Best thing on TV!!

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

17. I love that series. It's one of the few shows I watch on Fridays.

I think Gaius' relationship with his own personal mental version of Number Six, is compelling. It seems clear that the majority of those who believe in BG are polytheists. This Cylon believes in one God, and Gaius isn't sure what he believes. It's an interesting dynamic.