Why is it that non-religious people who get themselves in trouble, become preachers of God?

[trumad]

My bro--- a non-religious fellow all his life, just entered AA. That was about 2 weeks ago... Now it's God this, God that...

You see it all the time... Criminals led away in handcuffs spouting a brand new bible..etc.

Look--- I get that some of these folks have nowhere to turn but to religion---but I gotta tell you, it's kind of weird.

[maxsolomon]

1. AA is religious

surrendering control because you can't control yourself.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

2. Same reason why

The auto repair shops most likely to fleece you are the ones with the biggest Jesus fishes.

They go where the gullibility is, kind of like the proverbial bank robber.

[valerief]

3. I think religion is their new drug that takes personal responsibility

out of their lives. Before rehab, drugs controlled them. After rehab, a deity controls them. They don't have to make decisions, because the "decider" (drug or dogma) makes it for them.

[Trillo]

4. "Life's Harsh Lessons 'Make You More Gullible'"?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060523072353.htm

The article's description of the study suggests that when someone is punished it tends to make them look outside of themselves for guidance.

edited to add: If true, it's understandable how this phenomenon can be abused by a set of related authorities and societal constructs for the deliberate manipulation of individuals and the permanent removal of any lifetime's Happiness.

"Their reward is in Heaven".

[TlalocW]

5. You might be interested in Penn and Teller's, "Bullshit" episode

Where they tackle AA and other 12 step programs. I always had my doubts about them, and P&T pretty much nailed them. One of their steps is that you have to admit that you're powerless against your addiction and must seek a higher power, which I think is not necessarily a good thing. After all, who wants to convince themselves they're powerless against something.

Look for it on YouTube.

TlalocW

[kwassa]

21. What make either of them expert on the subject?

[TlalocW]

22. Nothing

But why they're essentially evangelizing their points of view, they do at least the same amount of research that anyone else in the media does.

TlalocW

[Az]

6. Its because AA relies on an emotionally overwhelming surrender

You have to surrender yourself to a higher power. It doesn't matter whether any being is actually there to surrender to. The experience of truly giving in to something sets off a very strong emotional cascade. It is this that gives many the strength to actually overcome their addiction. It is pitting the strong emotional experience against the stress of need.

And of course is someone truly gives themself up to such an experience then their certainty of the explanation given as to why it works will be totally consuming. That is they will truly believe that it was God that saw them through the experience when in fact it was simply pitting various emotions against each other within their mind.

[kwassa]

15. you don't understand 12-step at all, az.

Sorry. This is not an area where you have expertise.

No "emotional cascades".

[Az]

17. Are you saying

That there is no emotion to acknowledging a higher power? I am saying that once a person lets go of their defiance to whatever higher power they look to that an emotional release occurs causing them to find new strength to draw upon. I am more than willing to hear what you have to say that varies with this.

[kwassa]

18. It is not the emotional release that allows them to deal.

The strength comes from the knowledge and acceptance of a higher power itself.

The emotional release comes from turning it over to the higher power, and not attempting to be the source of all power. Trying to be that source is what gets people in trouble.

The emotional release is a side effect only. A great one, but only an effect.

[Az]

24. We seem to be disagreeing on a critical issue

As there are a diverse set of people with different notions of what is a higher power some of them must be exclusive. And if they differ with other individuals higher power such that they prohibit the existance of one or the other then if the cure comes from the higher power one would expect to see those who rely on the false higher power to constantly fail the AA process. But success is not dependent on belief in a specific higher power. Instead it would appear that success is dependent on the belief in a higher power what ever it may be. This means the entire process is an internal one and does in fact come from within.

Thus AA relies on an abstract construct of a higher power in order to function. This is why atheists can benefit from the process even if they do not accept the existance of god. They instead shift their focus to society or some other valued structure that is larger than themself. But it is an internal abstract construct from which they derive their strength and not the thing itself.

[kwassa]

25. We do disagree

As there are a diverse set of people with different notions of what is a higher power some of them must be exclusive. And if they differ with other individuals higher power such that they prohibit the existance of one or the other then if the cure comes from the higher power one would expect to see those who rely on the false higher power to constantly fail the AA process. But success is not dependent on belief in a specific higher power.

No. The notions of higher power do NOT need to be exclusive, because the exact nature of the higher power isn't discussed, therefore this is a non-issue.

Instead it would appear that success is dependent on the belief in a higher power what ever it may be. This means the entire process is an internal one and does in fact come from within.

I don't understand how the first sentence relates to the second sentence. Why is it an internal process?

Thus AA relies on an abstract construct of a higher power in order to function. This is why atheists can benefit from the process even if they do not accept the existance of god.

If they come to believe in a higher power, then they do have a god of some kind, something that is greater than themself. If one sees it as a abstract construct, one sees it as emanating from oneself, and makes themself god, so to speak. This destroys the process immediately, as it becomes a closed loop.

They instead shift their focus to society or some other valued structure that is larger than themself. But it is an internal abstract construct from which they derive their strength and not the thing itself.

It is not a internal construct, it is an understanding, continually evolving, from without. Otherwise it won't work.

[Meshuga]

26. I agree

I am not an atheist but I would assume that if an atheist ever tries to define this abstract "higher power" this person will lose this higher power and be in trouble since AA is going to be a failure. The atheist has to maintain this abstract construct of a higher power in order to be successful. Defining the higher power will kill it for the atheist (this is an assumption from a theist :-) ).

I would assume that AA is probably easier for a person of faith since the faithful already accepts some sort of definition for a higher power as part of their faith and can work with that idea in his/her path to recovery.

The people "more willing to accept" (I'm avoiding to use a condescending word like "gullible") who are not religious are very likely to "find God" in these situation.

[varkam]

7. Alright - I'll spill.

There's been some conversation in this thread regarding AA and whatnot. Well I'll throw my .02 in the ring as an insider. I've recently realized that I am an addict, and have joined a 12-step group. Now I'm a stalwart atheist, and still am. I figured that might be a problem being that the group I'm attending utilizes some fairly religious nomenclature (i.e. "God"). I remember asking if my nonbelief would be a problem, but I was told that it's really just a frame work. "God" as it applies to any 12-step group doesn't mean the xtian god or any other kind of deity. All it means is something larger and more powerful than yourself. Even as an atheist, I recognize that there are things larger and more powerful than me (like the sun; har har har). So "God" isn't the way most people normally envision "God". I believe in "God" - but that is simply the god of my understanding and it is not metaphysical and I don't need to take a leap of faith to know it's there.

As for the powerlessness issue, that's one that I struggled with personally. I always figured that if I'm powerless, then why the @!$? am I trying to get right? The way I see it, it's basically acceptance of the fact that an addict cannot manage their addiction on their own. They need something else. Now whether that be a therapist, rehab, a 12-step program, or God (big G, not little g), it doesn't really matter. It's just the realization and the acceptance that you need more than yourself to make it through to the other side. I know for me that's the case - if it wasn't, then I would have stopped a long time ago. It wasn't for lack of trying.

As far as criminals go, I'm sure for some of them it's just a cynical attempt to game the system into thinking that they're "changed". For others though, I think the needs are pure. Being arrested can be a deeply dehumanizing and shaming experience and religion or God can help alleviate that, I think.

That's my .02.

[trumad]

13. Great post and thanks

Yesterday my Brother told me that he has nothing in his life but God. I almost fell over when he said that. I said--- what about your daughter...your nieces and nephews,,,your brother sitting right next to you, your sisters, mother and father?

Keep in mind that the guy has never gone to church and is about as anti-religion as anyone I know.

So--- what am I to do? Let him become a religious fanatic because of his current vulnerability...OR--- should I say Bullshit?

Tough call since I'm pleased to death that he's quit drinking...at least for the last 10 days.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Jesus is new in his life and he's hyperfocused on Him.

That's probably normal for most people who adopt a faith when they're in bad shape. Be glad that he's quit drinking and encourage him to stay with the program. He's finally admitted to himself that he's an alcoholic and that's a huge step, too. Alcoholics I've known say nobody gets sober until they realize they are alcoholics and denial is major among alkies, as I'm sure you know.

Try to be patient about his God talk. He will probably become less intense -- or talk about it less -- as time passes. When he's been sober a good long time is when you can tell him you really don't want to hear about religion. Be glad he's made this step. One of my brothers committed suicide because of his alcoholism. I wish he'd just found Jesus, even if he'd been obnoxious as hell about it. (Actually he did become a Jesus freak when he was 13 and he was obnoxious as hell. . . if only he'd gone back to that, or tried AA.)

[varkam]

32. I don't have a dog in your fight.

You don't know me, and I don't know you nor do I have the same kind of vested interest that you have in your situation. From an addicts perspective all I can say is this - whatever works. The danger is that religion, like most things, can become self-destructive when taken to it's extreme. People with addictions often struggle to control one addiction while another, new addiction pops up. That kind of implies that - when used in this sense - religion and indeed 12-step groups can foster dependency on the part of the individual. That's actually one of the primary criticsms against them - to which I say the following; which is worse? Dependency on g/God or substances? Personally, I'd say the latter as they tend to shoot your body a bit quicker.

I'd let him do whatever he thinks he needs to do. The best thing that you can do as a family member is love him and do whatever you can to help him. I say that because that has been one of the crucial things in my own recovery.

[kwassa]

14. Congratulations, varkam.

You've taken the first step, and recognizes that it works.

and step two:
"I came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity ..."

I have found the twelve steps to be a great path to spiritual exploration, and as you pointed out, it doesn't really matter what your concept of God is, or even how you define it. It is understanding your powerlessness in the face of certain things, and the way out of it. Many of our problems come from the illusion that we control things in this world, and understanding that there is a greater power is really important to both recovery and healthy living.

The steps have also been a major part of my path for almost 20 years. You have a very clear understanding of it, as I can see from your note on it.

[varkam]

33. Thank you

Right now I'm working the 4th step, which is a big one (at least it is for me). I'm learning a little bit more every day, both about myself and what I feel I need to do to get better. A big part of that is, in fact, surrender. I don't believe in any intelligent force in the universe, so some of the steps have been tricky for me - but I've managed to work around that with my god. That's the important thing.

Okay, I'll stop turning this into the a&r forum. :D

[Zebedeo]

8. Jesus turns your life around

Countless millions of people can testify to this fact. How many drug addicts, alcoholics, abusers, criminals, etc. have become new people after being born again in Christ? I know this from personal experience as well as close relatives.

The Christian religion is about redemption, and it is no surprise to me that people who have a deep need for redemption (all of us) seem to benefit so dramatically and consistently from turning their life over to Christ.

Turning your life over to Christ and receiving Him as both Redeemer and Lord of your life is an experience that is beyond all description. It makes you want to serve Him, out of gratitude for what He has done for you. And in serving Him, your own life is so greatly enriched. That is why you see so many people whose lives have changed dramatically for the better after "finding religion."

[More Than A Feeling]

9. What about the people who "turn their life over to Christ"

and are...still the exact same people? Or the people who do that, and then end up deconverting?

[Zebedeo]

10. Turning one's life over to Christ does not

make one perfect, like God. We are still human, of course, and sinners. But I am not aware of a single example of someone whose conversion to Christianity wrecked his/her life, and there are oh, so many examples of the reverse.

[trotsky]

16. Odd how my personal experience is the opposite.

The people I have known who were Christians and gave up on their faith were able to overcome personal problems like addiction and bad relationships. But yet my old college buddy who was an atheist then but became a Christian shortly after graduation is in and out of treatment programs constantly.

Go figure.

[Evoman]

11. What about the people who "turn their live over to Christ", and then become

total flaming, insufferable assholes.

Don't tell me it doesn't happen, because it does.

[MistressOverdone]

20. Kind of like reformed smokers?

Boy, they can be offensive.

[Evoman]

12. I don't have a deep need for redemption.

I don't even have a shallow need for redemption.

[INdemo]

27. To add my 2 cents

Faith is the key word and reading the bible..I know I will get an argument from this statement but In reading the scripture and doing a little biblical research a person can find answers to their personal problems at least they can deal with them through the power of the Lord.Now we are told in the scripture that we will go through the storms of life and it also tells us we will get through those storms.

[Zebedeo]

30. Absolutely

Faith in God, and regularly immersing oneself in the reading of Scripture is so beneficial, not just for the next life, but for this one. The answers are in the Bible. We just have to seek the Lord and read His Word with a softened and humble heart.

With God, all things are possible.

[BurtWorm]

29. With all due respect, yeuchh.

I'm glad for you you like having Jesus to Lord over your life. Different strokes for different folks.

[MistressOverdone]

19. Well, as a Christian I'd first put forth

that sometimes it works to turn your problems over to God.

But let's just say I'm completely wrong and God doesn't exist. Sometimes it works to THINK you've turned your problems over to God. Anybody! Just somebody to life the burden, real or imagines.

People turn to whatever comforts them when they hit bottom. I know that my most "religious" times have been during the illnesses and deaths of close family members. I choose to think that is because there is something there to comfort me, but I'm pragmatic enough to know that just the concept could comfort me during rough times.

Also, becoming suddenly a "new man" ala Chuck Colson, buys one almost instant forgiveness from the community, except certain crimes like child molestation.

Good questions, really.

[bryant69]

23. I think in a way it's human nature

When you feel isolated and alone and purposeless - you look for purpose - you see it all the time and not just in religion. "My life to be going nowhere, but I want to DeBry industries and became a Chicken Sexer."

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[shrike]

28. A new way to get over

I can't speak for AA at all, but having been on the edges of the courts, criminal justice system and law enforcement for years, my experience has been that "born-again" criminals are looking for a new way to deal.

Most criminals I've dealt with (everything from B&E to murders) are basically non-religious until they get caught. They've spent most of their lives getting over, and "finding God" becomes one more way to do that -- a lighter sentence, an early release, more privileges.

Criminals do things for the screwiest reasons, btw. We had an incident here recently where a guy killed his cousin over a porkchop. I don't know what their relationship was like before the fateful meal, but they got into an argument over the last pork chop on the plate, and one pulled out a gun and killed the other.