Touchy Subject: How does one "prove" they are religious?

[Hugin]

I thought about making a poll of this topic...
But, there seems to be more views on it than
can be captured with a poll.

My personal opinion is it's proven by how one
lives their life. Through their works.

There are many opinions out there and I'd venture
to say none of them are incorrect.

If this is an inappropriate question. Please don't
flame me. Let me know and I will remove it.

[Racenut20]

1. By not doing/saying something that proves you are not.

[Kire]

39. I like that.

that's cool

[madrchsod]

2. i think Christ said something

about you will be judged by your acts not your words..

[LiberalFighter]

26. How about those that behave...

one way in private or with different groups of people vs in public?

[Warpy]

30. "By their works shall ye know them"

is the phrase I remember.

Somehow, I don't think the "works" of a gaudy heap of masonry in an upscale burb with a shiny new SUV out front covered with Bush stickers (and credit card debt to match) is going to persuade Jesus of their readiness for a heaven without power or property.

[JanMichael]

3. Generally I take a person's word for it and I'm and atheist.

I don't have any desire to challenge a person's own concept of what they "are".

Unless of course they start fucking with everything like Generalissimo el Busho, then there's a problem.

[Hugin]

5. Thanks JanMicheal excellent point.

"I don't have any desire to challenge a person's own concept of what they "are"."

[PurityOfEssence]

27. Well said. There was an interesting thread on another board I frequent...

...back before Christmas. The board in question is for ship modelers, and many of them are militant reactionaries and fundamentalists. Mercifully, though, there are lots of liberals and moderates there too, and even though the moderator's a pretty far-right ex-military type who feigns impartiality, he keeps a lid on things more or less.

The by-laws of the board are for NO politics or religion, but some irate extremist was wearing his religion on his sleeve and raging about how disgusting it was for people to say "happy holidays" and for governments to back away from referring to the birth of the lord. I stayed out of that fracas, since I've stirred up enough trouble, but what nobody said was this (which is effectively your take, too): don't think about yourself; think about the other person. If you know someone's a Christian, say "Merry Christmas". If you know he/she's a Jew, say "Happy Hanukkah". If you're in doubt, say "Happy Holidays", and if dealing with someone like me (agnostic, but not spoiling to mess up everybody's day) say "Merry Christmas", since it's part of the culture.

The point is to THINK OF THE OTHER PERSON instead of yourself. That's sort of the unspoken covenant of society, and it can't be stressed enough. Unfortunately, one of the core beliefs of many believers is that it's their duty to intrude and convert, and they don't see the hypocrisy of demanding a right they refuse to grant in return.

There are times to turn and fight, but most times one should let them be. Besides, by being tolerant and gentle, one is a good ambassador for one's belief system, and in fractious times like these, we all need to know people on the other side of various divides to help keep perspective.

[Neoma]

4. Well i believe Religion is spiritual

Spirit means 'to breathe' in Latin.

If you feel relaxed and live for what you believe in.
You don't have to prove a damn thing to anybody then.
Just don't use a book as a excuse to be a narrow-minded bigoted asshole and you'll be fine. :)

[two gun sid]

6. As an atheist, I like to see....

a person who claims to be religious post nude pictures of themselves on the internet. Extra points if they're circumcised.

[mongo]

16. WTF?

Are you implying that anyone who is religious can't enjoy nudity or sexual experiences outside the sanctity of marriage or what?

There are pornstars and models who identiy themselves as Christians, and there are plenty of people who are swingers that are good Christian people.

[two gun sid]

28. I'm not implying anything like that.

I like to see religious folks nude. OK, the circumcision part was just a smartassed comment.

[MemphisTiger]

40. I would imply that

[Nobody]

21. Supposing they worshipped Astarte

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Being religious is a personal thing. What's a religious act to one person isn't religious to another, and an atheist doing good works isn't religious at all.

[stanwyck]

7. You can't

I can't speak for the other religions, but Christianity is a path. I am the path. I am the way. And no one knows where they are on the path. (although, clearly -- Jimmy Carter--some are farther along than others --Jerry Falwell--.Only the higher power knows when a person becomes a Christian...it is not something the person can proclaim for himself/herself. To do so shows a lack of understanding of the faith.
And that is straight from my Presbyterian confirmation classes. Christianity 101.

[Hugin]

10. Great stanwyck...

How succinct and to the point.

Great response.

You obviously understand your belief.

[Broca]

11. That depends on what you mean by "prove".

Being on a political forum you no doubt know the value of appearance. I tend to judge someone as "religious" (sometimes qualitied with a few choice adjectives) by what I see: letters to the editor loaded with "proofs" such as numerous biblical quotes (Koran if you are moslem) and of course you must get one of those fish symbols for the back of your car. Also yard signs such as "Put Christ back in christmas" etc. And of course adamantly refuse to watch Public Television or listen to Public Radio.

On the serious side, I don't know if anyone truly religious would worry about proving the case.

[Hugin]

24. I don't know if anyone truly religious would worry about proving the case.

Hear Hear!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. why would one need to "prove" this?

Like you, I think the kind of person you are is reflected in your choices in life. But I wonder why one would feel compelled to have to "prove" their faith-because the only One to whom this matters already knows if you are a believer or not. To worry about how other people view you is letting in a lot of ego involvement.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. That's the right answer...

one does not talk about religion, or or simply "believe," but all enduring religions have you "live" them.

I can imagine very few circumstances where I would feel personally compelled to "prove" to someone else what I believed, or what my relationship to whatever God I believe in may be.

[Hugin]

18. Until a short time ago...

I thought as you do ayeshahaqqiqa.

But, then someone said they wanted proof of someone's
belief... I asked how.

They replied it was related to how often they
went to church.

So, I guess a display of belief is watched and
relied upon by others.

[Fuzz]

19. You must not have heard Falwell on Hannity the other day

Hannity had on Falwell and a more liberal minded christian for a 'debate'. Falwell's first attack was questioning the more liberal minded person's legitimacy as a christian by asking what church he attends, what the address is (because he would like to worship there) etc etc.

Seems that if you don't walk in lock step with the religious right, they will demand for you to prove your christian credentials and mock your sincerity.

[Hugin]

22. That's where my mind was Fuzz. n/t

[Tux]

36. Forum.Christianity.com

That is a forum for nuts. One post was about a guy's baby girl that just died and they said she'll burn in Hell since she didn't know Jesus and it's his fualt. All he wanted was prayers. They were more concerned about judging his dead daughter and saying he wasn't a Christian by using the Bible. They are not religious but insane.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. That's whacked even by the standards of fundamentalists,

since fundamentalists don't baptize infants and believe that a person must be "old enough" to make a personal commitment to Christ, usually early adolescence. So by their own theology, it would not be possible for a baby to be condemned to hell.

[Tux]

43. Mmmm

You don't live in the Bible Belt do you?

[Dervill Crow]

44. Holy Cow!

Now, I have to preface this by saying this was 25 years ago and I was pretty dumb. My daughter's baptism had to be postponed because there were a whole bunch of babies to be baptized and the church wanted to do it en masse. I was freaking out because I thought that if god forbid something happened to her before her baptism she would go to hell, and my pastor told me (and he NEVER lied) that as long as the intent was there that I would raise her in the faith she was definitely saved.

What a bunch of assholes.

[Tsiyu]

9. In the Judeo-Christian tradition. you cannot

It is up to your Creator to determine this.

Once, I was asked to fill out a form to place my kids under an "umbrellla school" to homeschool. I was supposed to get a pastor to sign off saying I had a "good relationship with the Lord." As if some human can look at someone and determine this? I threw that thing away, but it made me think about what the bible ( in the above tradition) says.

It says to pray in secret, in the closet rather than out in front of many people. It says not to let your right hand know what your left hand is doing ( don't brag about helping other people). It says you will know a "tree by its fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Neither can a bad tree produce good fruit."

So the individual can use discernment to see what a person does in life to determine their "morality" but on a personal level, it's not up to the individual to "prove" anything. We are called not to judge anyone but to look at our own failings and work on improving them instead of worrying about what "others" are doing.

Imagine if we all did this?

[tx_dem41]

12. Better question: Why does one feel the need to prove they are..

religious?

[jpgray]

13. A religious person has no need to prove they are religious

What's that line about the person who constantly proclaims "I am holy"?

[blackcat77]

14. "By their fruits shall you know them."

It doesn't matter what a person says -- look at what they're DOING. If their actions bring people closer together and help the downtrodden, then they are behaving in a good way, no matter what religion they follow. If they spread discord and promote greed or war, then they are not good persons.

Generally, if you have to ask, then they really aren't good people. If they really are good people, you don't have to ask.

[blondeatlast]

17. If one is, one has no need to "prove" it anyway.

Jesus showed his distaste for that sort of thing in Matthew; but apparently most of the Christians who scream about how religious they are got an oddlot Bible that missed the Book of Matthew.

[ChairOne]

20. Anyone *requiring* proof is either evil or a fool - or both /eom

[PurityOfEssence]

23. The only real way to prove belief in an afterlife is to blow yourself up

People can live a pious life and profess religion when maybe they just crave attention and approval and harbor a secret dismissal of the local custom. Some people go through the motions out of extreme calculation for personal gain. Some hedge their bets out of superstition.

For the record, I'm an agnostic and don't much care for religion. I know and love many who do believe, though, and I respect their feelings. There's no proof either way that I can see, but my working assumption is that there's no big whatever.

Many people truly believe and are much better for it. Many would be lost without it. Then again, many who profess belief are liars who abuse belief for money and power. (I'll just betcha some big-time evangelists are stone-cold atheists laughing all the way to the bank...)

One of the most bothersome traits of many believers (nice and non-nice ones) is to dismiss a disagreeable person as not truly believing. (Hitler is the classic case.) There are many true, real believers who use that system to justify screwing everyone in sight, and that's something that believers need to take some responsibility for. There's a selfishness built in to most of the major religions, and Christianity is very guilty of this: the principal act of a believer of that faith is to save his/her own ass. The harsher versions of it also dismiss outsiders as essentially subhuman and fair game for all sorts of abuse. Just being a believer doesn't make one "nice" or "good", in fact, subscribing to a rigid system often absolves people of personal responsibility and keeps them from true spiritual soul-searching as to what truly matters as a decent human being.

Funny how 9-11 really didn't change peoples' minds, it just retrenched their bigotries. Whether Falwell's really a believer or not--I'm inclined to think he is--he saw those falling towers as god's wrath for us tolerating homos and abortion. As I was lying in bed watching it in real time, the second thought in my mind was "that's not the work of any agnostics"; I knew it was the act of religious extremists the second I saw it, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out: that's something folks do when they believe in an afterlife.

Funny, too, how a disturbing act brought forth by religion caused so many religious people to seek yet more religion; that's an addict's response, and it scares the snot out of me. Reason and logic are our friends; religion works in a whole different realm.

[Eloriel]

25. Inappropriate for this forum, IMO

and to suit my taste.

I'm frankly sick of seeing religious discussions here. Most of the time I keep quiet -- but I'm going to start grousing about them, starting now.

Am I anti-religious? You could probably call me that -- but the funny thing is that the subject never comes up for me, it's not something I go seeking reasons and times to discuss UNTIL some religious discussion is shoved in my face in an inappropriate place or time.

Why do you (and anyone else) feel the need to push this subject in a clearly SECULAR place -- especially when DU has graciously provided a forum specifically for your religious discussions: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

Don't bother to answer that -- I won't be back to note whether you have or not. I'll be Hiding this thread.

[Dr Ron]

29. By being a Republican

I'm assuming by how you have "prove" in quotes you are meaning being considered adequately religious to receive votes from those who vote along these lines.

At the moment, it appears that being Republican is a requirement to being considered religious. Even a man as deeply religious as John Kerry was considered to be on the wrong side.

If we go beyond party lines to make the divide, another way to look at it is that being religious to these people means opposing abortion rights and considering homosexuality to be a sin (and including this opinion in policy decisions).

It wasn't always like this. The evangelicals voted for Jimmy Carter.

[Lars39]

31. We don't yet have to publicly register church membership,

but I could see it happening one day.
There's already been RW groups deciding which churches are acceptable.
There was an article/press release back a few yrs ago that listed which
churches were not considered christian.

I don't recall the name of the group,
but my fuzzy memory wants to say Lynn Cheney was involved in some way.
One of the churches not considered acceptable was UU.

[Tux]

37. UU?

My gf and I are considering joining. Great!

[Orsino]

32. Only by outward obedience to the strictures of one's professed faith...

Y'know. Suiting one's actions to words, the way * doesn't.

[DU GrovelBot]

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34. Grovelbot proves it by passing 'round the collection plate

I couldn't resist

[Tux]

35. From experience

It's how they treat others and animals. Most religious people (and a cat) treat others as they want to be treated (even some atheists do that).

The cat is my gf's cat. If he is hungry, he'd rather go hungry than hunt. He'll chase rabbits and mice but never kill them.

[MemphisTiger]

41. You don't have to prove your faith to anyone but God and

yourself. Other people's perception doesn't matter. Besides, if you have to tell others you are a Christian, you probably aren't doing a very good job living like one.

[Selwynn]

42. You don't. And why do you need too?

Who do we need to "prove" we are anything too? My personal beliefs are just that. If someone disputes that I am religious I'm going to smile and chuckle at them and then wonder why I should particularly care what they think? As far as I'm concerned people can label me anyway they want.

Actually, with the reason rush of certain atheists to redefine the term atheism, I can now be labeled an atheist. Not because I don't believe in god, but because I don't believe in the dogmas of theism. Just thought I'd throw that out there, because it bugs some people so much. :)

[arwalden]

45. How Odd...

>> Just thought I'd throw that out there, because it bugs some people so much. :) <<

That's quite an admission. Obviously you're trying to taunt... just to get a reaction from someone. Considering how overwrought you got when someone else admitted to doing something similar, that's a very peculiar thing for you to do.

Do you remember this:

"First of all the fact that you admit to "toying" with me is telling. I come to the discussion to have an honest one, apparently you don't do the same. You don't "toy" with someone you respect. You don't "toy" with someone you desire to engage in mature rational discourse."

A stern lecture and admonition... wow. At the time, it almost sounded like you meant it. Now it just looks like you were just trying to score points.