Is truth inherently valuable or only if the benefits outweigh the costs?

[More Than A Feeling]

If you willfully tell someone a lie which you know is a lie, but it causes them to do great good for someone, was your lie more morally justified than the truth or silence?

What if you tell the truth about a matter of great importance, but no good comes of it other than that your words were in accord with reality? Would silence or a lie have been more morally justifiable?

I know that these are questions that can only be answered to the satisfaction of each individual conscience that considers them, but in this forum, we have consciences that have wrestled with the mighty moral issues inherent in the subject of religion. How would you answer these questions for yourselves?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. I think it would depend upon the situation

For example, who the person was who was going to do good and what type of lie was told. I could even say that telling the truth about an important situation could cause harm if the revelation is done at the wrong time--also the way the truth is told. Here's an example: when I was in fifth grade, there was a bad storm. We watched as a wall cloud developed in the west, half expecting to be sent to the basement. But the evacuation call never came. Kids started to panic; the teacher drew the blinds and was able to keep a class of around 40 kids calm and discussing the weather and the fact that we'd get the emergency bell if we were to evacuate, but that we could get under the desks if things got bad. Later it was found that the district hadn't realized how close the tornado was to our school--we were never given the evacuation signal. Had the teacher told us the truth, there would have been mass hysteria and panic.

[cosmik debris]

2. Here is a thought

Sometimes the value of an action is based on the perceived outcome. Should a person be responsible for having the correct perception? What if the perceived outcome is good, but the actual outcome is bad?

We seem to hold people responsible for actual outcomes regardless of their intentions or the outcome they perceived. It's not always fair, but it is always interesting.

[struggle4progress]

3. If death squads ever ask me where you are, do you want me to lie? Or not?

[toddaa]

5. What if

What if you lie? The death squads go after the wrong guy and kill him instead. For me, that's good. For the poor bastard you just lied about, not so much.

Hypothetical scenarios work best when you control the range of outcomes. Leaving aside stochastic outcomes, reality has a much larger set.

This doesn't mean that lying never works. Sometimes it does. But thinking you can identify given situations where telling a lie will always lead to a desirable result is setting yourself up for a disaster. And the bigger the lie, the more horrible the potential result.

[struggle4progress]

7. So you say we should finger folk death squads want cuz otherwise they might kill somebody else?

Here is an apparently factual case from WWII:

A woman's husband was sought by the Nazis. Hoping that the Nazis did not know what he actually looked like, the man obtained a false ID, identifying him as her brother, and the family moved away, telling everyone the husband had died but otherwise trying to maintain the appearance of a normal life. The danger with this plan was the real possibility that the couple's three year old son would give away the story by calling his father something like Papa. So the couple sat down with the child and explained carefully the situation, stressing that the child must pretend his father was dead and must refer to his father as Uncle. One day the doorbell rang, and the woman answered it to find an SS officer looking for the husband, who was in plain sight from the door. After verifying the woman's ID, the SS officer asked the man to come forward. He did, and as he did, his son came up to the door and put his hand in his father's hand. The SS officer asked whether the man was the husband and was told the husband was dead. At this point the SS officer asked the child Who is this man? to which the child replied instantly He is my uncle. This satisfied the SS.

Whether the Nazis as a result of this lie killed someone else, who otherwise would not have been killed, is simply unknowable and therefore silly to speculate about. Hypothetical scenarios are much less interesting than historical scenarios ...

[toddaa]

9. Not saying anything of the sort

My argument is that you cannot create a scenario where you can guarantee a successful outcome regardless of whether you tell the truth or not. The OP tried to argue that it was possible to predict a successful result by telling a lie. Regardless of whether you tell the truth, a lie, or say nothing, you cannot predict a good result. Your example is a specific case of a child telling an SS officer a specific fact that happens to be erroneous. That's quite a bit more limited than indoctrinating a person with a complete theological mindset and predicting that the person will do good. Even in your case, the SS officer could have been more persistent and demanded identification. The child simply did not know what would happen and got lucky. In most cases it comes down to playing the odds. A specific lie in a limited scenario probably has a greater chance of success than a larger one.

[toddaa]

4. The law of unintended consequences will eventually rear its head

In a scenario with a very limited set of desirable results, you can probably construct a scenario where a false answer leads to a desirable result, but as the domain and range increase in size, I don't think its possible to construct a situation where a falsehood will always lead to a desirable result.

[bridgit]

6. "only if the benefits outweigh the costs", and the life of Jesus is proof of that...

he knew his mission, was not deterred, he loved all he encountered; many, my belief is that even he, would have loved to have him remain here and to continue teaching, grow old with us...many sobbed, as did he in the face of the sorrows of this world, but he got up on that cross anyway cause the truth is not here it is somewhere else

hubby told me a story, his mother was dying; he popped up out of town some 100mils away and his family, "we have to go", and they did, she had lost her bodily function the night previous, and was sitting so frail on the couch, he went to her and knelt down, she said,

"He says I'm going to die." gasping and short of breath, 'he' meaning hubby's father, who is old school and very direct...

hubby held her rib cage in his hands and told her...

"You're not going to die."

she did die later that day, and that was the last time hubby seen his mother alive now...did hubby lie to his dying mother?

and if he did, was he morally wrong in doing so?

[toddaa]

11. Your husband didn't lie, he speculated

Granted, the speculation was made despite all of the known information, but knowing if his mother was going to die was outside of his knowledge. Well, apart from the fact that we are all going to die. But in that specific instance, perhaps he as offering hope to his mother despite having probably lost it himself.

[bridgit]

13. your post is greatly appreicated...

:)

[toddaa]

14. Time is circular

We should come into this life loved and we should leave it loved. This is a Taoist belief of mine I feel very strongly about. It is never immoral to give comfort to those at the end of their life. It is just as important as giving love to the newborn. Sadly, the world is too filled with hate.

[bridgit]

15. you're making sense to me, friend...

edited to add a friend - http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=20604912">Krishna :hi:

[Meshuga]

8. It depends on the lie or how you use your sincerity

A lie is not necessarily a bad thing. You may need to use it to survive and sometimes to help someone (feel better or do something good). Sincerity could be a bad thing sometimes like the people who are proud to be blunt and sincere but are only hurtful.

[Az]

10. It is more about intent than specific action

Any action. Any comment. Can have a multitude of effects both good and bad. What determines if a thing is moral or not has more to do with the intent behind the action or comment. A lie told to save people is good. A lie to undermine someone else for personal gain is bad.

Much of the issue of lies is tied to establishment of trust rather than morality. This is a social cue. We are taught to be reticent about lying and in this way we create an environment where it is socially unacceptable in normal circumstances to lie.

[MistressOverdone]

12. I think truth is over-rated.