Do Lutherans read the writings of Luther?

[Jed Dilligan]

Just wondering. On the one hand, it would be odd if the millions of Lutherans today were responsible for reading the entirety of his output, or even a substantial chunk of it. On the other hand, in any other religion named for a historical person, it's generally expected that a follower study that figure's life and teachings.

How important is Luther to modern Lutherans? If he is important, how do they work around his controversial views (predestination, anti-Semitism)? If he's not important, why is the church still named after him?

I'm not trying to bash Lutherans, just want to know. Thanks.

[Bjornsdotter]

1. I was raised Luthern

...and no.

We read the Bible King James Version and a book of catechisms or something on that order.

Cheers

[trotsky]

23. I was also raised Lutheran

and same here. We learned of his 95 theses and memorized Luther's Small Catechism but that is about the extent of it.

Once I got to college and actually learned about this vile man and his hatred, I can see why they want as little to do with him as possible.

[Wickerman]

2. Why don't you take a stab at what is controverisal about his

teachings? I am aware of how his writings on predestination are sometimes reported; I'd like to see what is said about his writings on anti-Semitism.

[Jed Dilligan]

3. Well

He did write a book called "On the Jews and Their Lies."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#Luther_and_anti-Semitism

[Wickerman]

7. Your own source offers the Lutheran view of those writings. n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

12. I'm more interested in rank-and-file

than official views.

[Wickerman]

16. obviously, we endorse him fully

:eyes:

I have no idea of how other lutherans deal with his later writings, but my experience echoes that of a poster below. I take his writings in context of the times and recognize his views were wrong. Certainly you won't find the fore-mentioned text laying about in the vestibule, nor will you find much Luther at all lying about. Most lutherans subscribe to the views outlined in his 95 theses, respect his scholarship and contributions to the modern liturgy and worship.

[yurbud]

4. Lex or Vandross?

[Jed Dilligan]

5. It would have to be Vandross

or else they would be called "Luthorans" :)

[Pyrzqxgl]

19. What about Lex?

[yurbud]

22. LuthErans are the whitest people this side of cave albinos

[eagler]

6. Luther is still read and respected ,But it is also realized

that he had many faults. However, it is recognized that important historical figures need to be viewed in the contexts of their times. A medieval person generally thought, acted, and reacted as a medieval person and must be understood in that context. When we are judged centuries from now, hopefully we will not be condemned for our actions because they don't match up to standards of the future.

[tanyev]

8. A typical congregation member would not know much about Luther

beyond the Small Catechism and some of his hymns. His writings are studied in our college theology courses and seminaries, though. I am aware of his anti-Semitic writings. It was presented to me as an area where he was wrong and influenced by the times he lived in. We certainly do not consider his writings divine or infallible. I am not aware of his views on presdestination.

[illinoisprogressive]

9. I was raised Lutheran and it's no.

there are some splits. There is one that is more hard line and one that is just an average everyday church. I belonged to the latter. We studied different religions in comfirmation class and were encouraged to go see other churches to be open minded. They seem to affliate alot with the mainstream ideas of catholic. They don't do the harder line stuff of catholics. But, follow the more mainstream stuff. That are alot like the way you would imagine church should be. Not radical, not political, very low keyed. they teach Luthers tenants for your knowledge but, don't follow it.
Very mainstream and low keyed.

[Joe for Clark]

10. Some of my family converted to Lutherans.

They call it - "Catholic lite".

Personally, I am an American Catholic - "Cafeteria Catholic". Kids got thru all the sacraments, though.

I thought they converted cause they couldn't deal with all the CCD requirements for their kids.

You are right you know - how can anyone reconcille St Augistine with a concept of predestination.

Luther wasn't an anti-semite I think. You understand - all christians do - we were all Jewish once.

Do I think they read all this? - no, I sure don't.

Joe

[Jed Dilligan]

13. I thought Episcopalian was Catholic lite...

though I would be a little embarrassed to walk around with the knowledge that my religion was founded by Henry the Eighth.

[Joe for Clark]

17. I never did see a difference between the Church of England

And Roman Catholics. - Other than obsure 16th century politics. And that they let their priests get married, I suppose.

When you go to a catholic mass - we say the Apostles Creed - that we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church - well, for many, many years I though it said one holy catholic and episcopallian church.

I still don't see AT ALL the real difference between any of the christian religions - surely not enough of a difference to pass thru the "eye of a needle" -

The fact is, I don't see much of a difference in any religion - just do the right thing.

There is a lot to be said for Karma,

Joe

[tularetom]

11. Do Methodists cook meth?

[Jed Dilligan]

15. Clearly, no

They follow the teachings of Method Man.

[recidivist]

14. The catechism, yes. The million and one other things he said/wrote,

Of course not.

Martin Luther was a CHF (Complex Historical Figure). His revolutionary moment was the Diet of Worms ("Here I stand; I can do no other ....), which -- at the risk of resorting to a cliche -- is one of the great "speaking truth to power" moments in history. The enduring core of Lutheranism is justification by faith, the primacy of scripture, and a redefinition of the role of clergy (the priesthood of all believers).

That said, in later years and with the wars of religion breaking out all around him, Luther promptly got involved in 1001 controversies, most little remembered today. He was a great pamphleteer and agitator. But he never pretended to be God, or even God's vicar on earth, i.e. the Pope. The implication of his theology, in fact, was to reduce the claimed authority of the clergy. When he got involved in the political disputes of the day, he argued as a layman without pretence to Higher Authority.

His record on anti-semitism is mixed. At times he spoke and wrote quite favorably (by the standards of the time) about the Jews. At other times, when he got crosswise with prominent Jewish leaders on current issues, his language is anti-semitic in tone. But since he was given to intemperate rhetoric in other controveries as well, that has to be taken with a grain of salt. This perhaps should be understood especially well at a place like DU, where intemperate rhetoric is common. I do not imagine most of our members are as crazy in person as they often sound on the board.

Luther's reputation has been much damaged by Table Talk, a collection of sayings collected by his son-in-law. This, however, is problematic. Luther lived a long life and was quite senile by the time he died. That did not stop his son-in-law, who idolized the Great Man, from jotting down everything he said in his dotage. Serious Luther scholars agree that it's unfair to judge Luther on this material, but that doesn't stop embarassing quotes from this source from circulating even today. These are not a fair reflection of the man.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

30. does it compare with the Catholic catechism?

the latest catechism of the previous Pope is supposed to be a real duzzy. This is not a comment on the Lutheran catechism except as what is is not, but then it is not the Koran either. A lapsed Lutheran has to reaffirm the faith, and it would be based on the catechism.
Their was an interesting attempt of Lutheran scholars some years ago at hermeneutics from the Lutheran position. It reminded me of the early attempts of the church to wade through thought on the divine Substance.

[Berry Cool]

18. Lutheranism is both very unlike and ironically like Catholicsm

as are kids who rebel againt and break away from their parents.

Lutherans don't believe in salvation through good works, as Catholics do (although they believe that faith should be accompanied by good works). Yet in some ways it's a very formal religion compared to some others.

Most Lutherans do not read Luther's writings beyond the catechisms and have no idea of his anti-Semitic writings. At least that's been my experience. I never knew Luther was anti-Semitic until some stranger on the Internets accused me of being anti-Semitic just because she knew I had been raised Lutheran. That was absurd. Anti-Semitism is not taught to Lutherans, nor is any other form of intolerance.

However, the question must be posed: Are Lutherans taught that only Christians will go to heaven? The answer to that is: Yes, they are, because they are taught that salvation comes only through believing Jesus Christ paid the price for your sins. From there, however, it's a toss-up as to whether all Lutherans secretly believe that to be true, and that everyone else is "going to hell"--and my experience has been that even those who do believe that do not express it in the form of hatred for people of other religions, but rather through attempts at evangelism and conversion or simply by "live and let live" (even though technically they're supposed to evangelize, Lutherans are much less into it than, say, Baptists, or "born-agains").

[Joe for Clark]

20. I give the catholics this - they believe all peoples of good

will be treated as good when the time comes.

But I don't know of a Lutheran that doesn't think that either. Catholics just said it out loud.

We christians believe in "the way" - some took that as just that belief in christ was the way. It is interpretation.

But than there are also 30 some percent of the country that would support B*sh.

I am a mediocre christian - but I understand the allegory. We all do for the most part.

When christ said this is my body, my blood - it was NOT literally meant - unless you are a canabal.

It was clearly more than that.

You remember the greatest of all teachings -"least of my brothers..."

Try or imagine actually violating it and stayinjg within the framework- it is not possible.

The whole concept of free will - there is something to that - but then, we are all going to die one day too.

Joe

[Goblinmonger]

24. That's not what the RC church thinks

Denying the existence of god is the highest form of apostasy and the greatest sin there is. Regardless of anything else, if you die with that sin (or any other mortal sin) on your soul, you are sent to hell.

[TreasonousBastard]

27. Dunno if that's entirely true...

even in my misspent Missouri Synod youth we were taught that it's the denial of Christ that's the doomer.

The question was often raised-- "What about some Chinese kid on some remote mountain who will never hear about Jesus?" The usual answer was that God has a plan for those who are unable to choose Christ for some reason, but those of us who have heard the Word damnsure better believe.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. Yep, protestants don't think you need works, only faith.

Sit on your ass, never utter a kind word to anybody or do a kind deed, pray your ass off all day, and get in Heaven. Boy doesn't that help the world situation a whole lot!!!!

(kinda-sarcasm)

[struggle4progress]

21. Some of us read some of it.

The fact, that the denomination is named after him, does not mean we so-called Lutherans consider as a priceless treasure everything Luther said or wrote.

His theological view, that we are not saved by works but by grace through faith, is generally taken seriously by the Lutherans I know. This formulation begins from the observation that we humans are imperfect beings, whose behavior leaves much to be desired, proceeding from thence towards the view we should not despair, despite our continuing failure to behave as we ourselves think we ought. It is certainly clear from the historical record that Luther himself was a highly unperfected man.

Luther did not set out to split a sect away from the Catholic church but rather set out to reform the Church -- in a era of growing cultural upheaval: Gutenberg, who died about the time Luther was born, had invented printing only a few decades after the black death had killed off much of Europe; Arabic numerals were gradually becoming popular across the continent, which revolutionized commerce; the artistic and scientific Renaissance was underway; and the so-called Americas had been discovered by the time Luther nailed his theses to the church door. In this context, a number of political fights associated with various economic interests were often garbed in theological language (as, notably, in the case of England's Henry VIII), and Luther's reform effort promptly involved the German aristocracy.

I do not know anyone who defends his anti-semitic rants, which seem completely inexcusable to me. On the other hand, I consider it unfair to claim his theology responsible for the twentieth-century holocaust: anti-semitism is not taught as "Lutheran" theology in any church I have ever attended, and solidly Lutheran little Denmark had, in comparison to much of WWII Europe, a rather decent record of refusing to cooperate with Nazi extermination plans.

[Odin2005]

25. This ex-Lutheran never did.

In Conformation I was just taught the basics of Luther's theology (justification by faith, Sola Scriptura , etc.) some of the basic historical stuff on the Reformation, and Luther's chatechism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. I grew up as a Lutheran preacher's kid

in the days when we still had to memorize the Small Catechism.

We learned about Luther's life, but not much about his writings. As I understand it, in his early days, Luther admired the Jews, learned Hebrew well enough to translate the Hebrew Scriptures, and believed that it was only the corrupt aspects of the Catholic church that kept Jews from converting to Christianity. However, when they still didn't convert, after he had--from his point of view--gone to all the trouble of reforming the church--he turned against them.

His attitude against the peasants' revolt was distasteful as well. He preached "the priesthood of all believers," saying that all non-criminal occupations were equally honorable and that priests and nuns had no special status before God. Yet, when German peasants influenced by his religious egalitarianism began demanding politcal egalitarianism, he reverted to the authoritarianism that had been beaten into him as a child.

On the whole, the biographies make him seem brilliant but troubled. He translated the entire Bible from Hebrew and Greek into German, thus establishing the German literary language on the basis of the court language of Saxony; developed a liturgy, wrote hymns, and wrote theological treatises, doing single-handedly what was done by half a dozen people in the English reformation.

[spoony]

28. Luther is very important

and why someone would call themselves a Lutheran without knowing why is a mystery to me. He stood before the two earthly powers of his time, the emperor and the pope, and did not wilt in his mission to return the knowledge of God's love--regardless of money and speaking Latin--to the common people. Thank God for him.

[Dervill Crow]

29. Nice answer!

Former Missouri Synod Lutheran here, and still find that makes more sense to me than many other flavors of Christianity.