Is the Catholic Church a force for good in the modern world?

[BurtWorm]

Is it a force for bad, not to say evil? Or is it just a mixed bag?

I ask because I've been reading (in Susan Jacoby's "Freethinkers") about the Church's campaigns in the US during the last century to put parochial schools on par with public schools in the eyes of legislators, to keep "immoral" works out of the reach of all members of the public, to prevent the legalization of birth control and to outlaw abortion (for starters)--and then I saw this article below while checking the Guardian's RSS feed.

For almost all of my life, though I've been unchurched myself, I have taken for granted that the Catholic Church was, if anything, a little "better" than most other American churches in being more authentic, in having a richer liturgy and history, in being the church of Dorothy Day, the Berrigans, the Kennedys, my closest childhood friends, liberation theology, etc., etc., etc.

But when I read about the history of the early church and of the Inquisition, and when I think about Terri Schiavo, and the protection of pedophile priests, and the murders of abortion doctors, and when I think of the excrutiatingly awful funeral masses for Catholics I've attended in the last several years in which it's all pro forma and mostly about Jesus Christ and hardly at all about the deceased, and when I read about shit like this... then I have to ask myself the questions above.


http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,1996785,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

No 10 mulls Catholic opt-out from gay rights law



Tuesday January 23, 2007
Guardian Unlimited


Downing Street appeared to be wavering today on allowing Catholic adoption agencies exemption from gay rights legislation, after a warning from the leader of Catholics in England and Wales that agencies may close rather than comply with the regulations.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, the Archbishop of Westminster, said the church would have "serious difficulty" with the proposed regulations, putting a total of 12 Catholic adoption agencies at risk of closure.

This morning the prime minister's official spokesman admitted that Mr Blair still had to make his mind up on the issue.

The regulations, part of the Equalities Act 2006, are designed to give gay and lesbian couples the same protection against discrimination under the law as ethnic minorities.

But Cardinal Murphy O'Connor has warned that the law would force Catholics to "act against the teaching of the church and their own consciences"....

[Double T]

1. Any religion that promotes continued increases in the population,........

and intolerance or discrimination of anyone that doesn't belong to that religion or accept the doctrine of that religion, is a negative force.

[Evoman]

2. No, it is not. n/t

[More Than A Feeling]

3. You forgot its part in originating anti-semitism, and promoting it through the centuries

Not withstanding Peter Abelard, a genuine voice for tolerance, most prominent Catholic voices for centuries wanted the Jews to stay alive only as an example of the hell the church will put anyone who denies Jesus, if they have the power to.

[patrice]

4. I consider myself Catholic, though I don't go to Mass anymore.

I was teen in the 60s at a time in the Church when, at my Catholic highschool, we were encouraged to grow up in our Faith by asking questions and seeking answers in life. We were told that anyone who lives their lives by the principles espoused by Jesus, whether they actually ever heard of Jesus or not, they could "go to heaven".

When Vice Cheney came to KC the summer before the invasion of Iraq and I went there by myself to shout "NO WAR" (from half a block away, because they weould not allow us to get closer), it was people from Catholic Worker House who came over to me and said that they'd been gathering for several months in a park downtown to think and act against the coming war. I have been with them and others ever since.

During the '04 Kerry campaign, on phonebanks, I encountered Catholics telling me that other parishoners were taking it upon themselves to mail first class letters to everyone in their parishes, telling them to vote for Bush. They were very upset. The result of that has been a new grassroots organization called Kansans for Faithful Citizenship who has put themselves together and become active "on issues affecting the common good". I went to their first convention. Governor Sebelius spoke to them, as well as some labor-rights activists, enviromentalists, and other Social Justice activists. Many of these people are also pro-Choice.

I don't know the answer to your question. I know I am what I am because of 12 years of Catholic school in which we talked and thought about theology every day of school in Catechism classes. I do know that there are very progressive Catholics all over the country and they are active. I'd bet the more progressive Catholics are usually 50+ years old on an average.

Don't confuse the Church with "the Church", Catholic or otherwise.

[BurtWorm]

6. You were a teen at the time of Pope John and Vatican II.

My best friend's mother was in awe of Pope John, and it rubbed off a little on me, even though I didn't really know much about him.

[patrice]

8. Yep. I think all of the popes since John XXIII have been regressive.

I'd be somewhat different if my formative years had been with a different pope, but not entirely different, because I grew up in a large and very precocious family and my dad was a leader amongst construction workers who helped start a pipefitters' union.

[dmallind]

7. Sincere and reasonable answer there BUT

How far would I get arguing that Exxon is a force for good becauuse some of their employees - even in management roles - spend lots of time and money on good works and liberal politics? Or even that the company itself spends a huge numbver of dollars in civic and charitable causes?

The church should get no special dispensation. What it does as a whole must be the measure of its impact on society, just like Exxon. And, just like Exxon, the bad far outweighs the good.

Stands against freedom of speech, equal rights for women and gays, and sensible population control bring misery to untold millions if not billions in the latter instance. No amount of politically liberal work on behalf of some parishioners (balanced of course by the opposite!) and no amount of charitable work that may help even hundreds of thousands, nay millions, of the needy, will help that.

That's why I can't stand the general meme that people use Morther Teresa as an example of selfless goodness. She helped thousands, probably tens of thousands of teh poorest of the poor. I could never claim close to that. However her firm and vocal opposition to birth control helped mean millions upon millions were born into grinding want and poverty and disease and prenmature death. I could never claim close to that by even a wider margin.

[patrice]

11. If it were possible to actually know everything relating to whether

___________ is "good" or "bad", maybe we could count, n good things, n bad things, compare the ns, and come to somekind of conclusion. I don't personally feel the need for that conclusion.

To me it enough to say "This, this, and this are good. This, this, and this are bad. Therefore, I will ____________."

I do not defend the Catholic Church for any of the bad things it has done or does. I do point those things out when possible, and work against the harm they do, but I'm working against their attitudes, thinking and actions, **because** they are generally relevant outside of the Catholic Church to people from all kinds of churches. I guess I'm saying here that to condemn and be against Catholicism would be like missing the forest for a single tree.

I would prefer to address more universally relevant phenomena, rather than dismissed for being specifically Catholic.

[dmallind]

13. As a utilitarian I do

...feel the need for that conclusion. In fact it pretty much defines my moral philosophy

However rest assured that this conclusion is applied only to the Church as an official and abstract entity. I make no such conclusion about individual Catholics, or even individual Catholic congregations. There are many of both who seek to emphasize the good rather than the bad aspects of the mother church, and who create a net benefit to society in so doing.

[northernsoul]

5. Aiding and Abetting known child molesters can never be good

n/t

[hunter]

9. Nothing compares to the United States as a force for good!

Ask anyone in Iraq.

:eyes:

[moggie]

10. Don't forget their stance on condoms and HIV

They have lied to people about the efficacy of condoms in preventing HIV infection, in some cases even claiming that condom use increases the risk of infection. See here, for example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3176982.stm

Given the horrifying levels of HIV in much of Africa, the church has helped kill countless people this way, and this policy came right from the top. But why should they care? It's God's will, and this life is less important than what comes after anyway. Evil fuckers. :mad:

[Solo_in_MD]

12. On whole, yes it is, but I have some serious reservations about this Pontiff

[cain_7777]

14. No, it spreads ignorance like every other religion.

[cyborg_jim]

15. It's a force for Catholicism

Good if you like that I suppose.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Mixed reviews

Within any large denomination, there's bound to be a lot of local variation. Also, the Catholic church is made up of human beings, who are naturally going to vary a lot.

Their charitable work around the world is outstanding, and in some countries, such as El Salvador and Guatemala, they have stood for justice and equality for the poor. In the U.S., Catholic Charities helps people without regard to religious affiliation. Their schools provide a high quality of education, from elementary through college level, with full acceptance of modern science.

I don't have to enumerate the downsides, since others surely will.

[Goblinmonger]

17. No absolutely not

Condoms cause AIDS indeed. Douchebags.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Mixed bag

Lots of bigotry (women, gays, etc.), but also a strong tradition of social justice for the poor, hungry, imprisoned, etc.

Like much else in the world, it's neither completely good or completely bad.