A Mild Rant

[Chorophyll]

I tend to hang out here in Religion/Theology because I find questions of belief and non-belief fascinating. I assume that's why most of us are here.

I have stated in other threads that I belong to no particular religious tradition, but I do believe in god in my own way.

I was an atheist for a long time, and it's only in recent years that I've decided I believe in god. I have studied comparative religion, read what I could stand of the Bible, and put a lot of thought into this. There were one or two mildly traumatic events in my life that may have pushed me in this direction, but I was probably headed there anyway.

I am open to the idea that my need for god has a purely genetic/scientific basis. I'm not saying faith is a rational thing. It isn't.

I don't expect anyone else to believe the way I do. Not even my own son. I don't adhere to any religious tradition (maybe I'd make a good Unitarian, I don't know.) I despise proselytizers. I think organized religion has often been a force of pure malevolance in this world.

That said, I have noticed a tendency on behalf of DUers of all stripes to pounce on people with whom they disagree, often with ad-hominem attacks. It's really blatant here in Religion/Theology.

If you are an atheist, please try to state your case without calling believers "dumb." Most of us do a lot of reading and thinking, and we are not dumb. (And by the way, just because I believe in god, don't assume I think some old guy with a white beard created the world in seven days, or that people lived side by side with dinosaurs, etc. This is DU after all, not Freeperville.)

If you subscribe to a very organized religion, please do not try to convert the rest of us by posting sermons here or by consigning other people to hell. That comes very close to proselytizing and this is not the place for it. You will folks justifiably grouchy.

The way to move this world forward is through mutual respect. We don't all have to agree, but none of us are here (at least I hope not) just to prove we're smarter than the other guy. Maybe we can try to keep it civil? Otherwise we're just a bunch of Dubyas.

We're not a bunch of Dubyas, are we???

[cosmik debris]

1. There is an "alert" button for those who break the rules

But if they are not breaking the rules, don't whine about it.

[Chorophyll]

2. 'Mkay. Sorry if I whined.

[Dorian Gray]

5. I don't think the OP was whining...

and some posts (in the past... I haven't come across it as much recently) seemed to be mocking. I've only alerted on a post once, and it had nothing to do with religion. There was a very bigotted post in another forum. I wouldn't alert on someone because they thought I was silly or stupid. I do think it's fair, however, for people to request honest to goodness nice treatment. And if you don't want to comply, that's your right. I appreciate the OP's thoughts on the subject, and I hate that something like religion is often such a contentious subject for many here.

[Chorophyll]

8. Thank you, Dorian Gray.

It would take something pretty damn serious for me to alert on anyone. And my post was truly not intended to be an attack on any one individual, though I see that it could be taken that way. I apologize -- really -- to anyone who thought that. But I stand behind what I wrote.

[Evoman]

3. I assume this post was inspired by me.

In truth, calling an idea dumb is not the same as calling the person who holds in dumb. I think your rant is misdirected. There are plenty of smart people who have dumb ideas....and some of the people in the Bush administration personify that statement.

You pretty much took me to task for calling the idea of heaven dumb (although I reassured you and others time and again that I did not think you were dumb). But when I was attacked with an ad-hominem, nobody came to my defense. In fact, I bet you that you nodded your head.

And what the hell....dumb isn't even that freaking offensive. Now if I had said retarded or something to that effect, I could see your point better.

[Chorophyll]

4. Hi. If I didn't come to your defense

I apologize. I wasn't nodding my head, though. I seriously wish people wouldn't attack each other personally. Butyou're right. I wasn't equal in my outrage.

As you can see I'm new at posting stuff. I might be a better commenter than thread-starter. But this wasn't really about you -- it was meant to be more general.

Now you can call me a retard though! :P

And whiney, too! :hi:

[Meshuga]

6. Adding a new participant to R/T is like...

...adding a new cat to your house when you already have an existing cat. Initially they are not used to each other's smell so they fight, scratch each other, chase each other, etc. It's a big stress!

But after a few days (or weeks) they get used to each other's smells and things cool down gradually. Sometimes they learn to like each other (after the initial stress) but many times they learn to co-exist in peace.

That's pretty much what happens here in R/T.

With all that being said, welcome to our cat fight! :-)

Most people here mean no harm. ;-)

[Chorophyll]

7. Mrrrrow!

And thanks! :hi:

[Dorian Gray]

18. That's actually a pretty apt

description of what happens here. :)

[TRYPHO]

9. No, I got sucked in to the vortex and cant escape...

I tend to hang out here in Religion/Theology because I find questions of belief and non-belief fascinating. I assume that's why most of us are here.

I was looking for somewhere to debate ancient Christianity/Judaism, and google got it wrong. But once you start here you have to reach a considerable escape velocity, and the correct (minute) escape trajectory. I can never manage both simultaneously. If I could I'd follow up with a Star Trek 5 flip round the sun, go back in time, and bloody well see for myself who the hell Jesus was or wasn't and tell Josephus to write a proper entry on the man (yes, MAN), or nothing at all.


:rant:

TRYPHO
(yes, I know, Josephus didn't write anything, it was a later forgery, get over it)

[Chorophyll]

10. I can't escape either, obviously.

I've been absorbed. Damned internet(s)!

I hope you've found someplace else to debate ancient Christianity/Judaism.(?)

[TRYPHO]

11. I've been sidetracked by monumental hurdles...

The Talmud, should you ever find it of interest, can side-track people for centuries! For my "studies" I have an enormous interest in one extremely precise period/question. To find the answer/s I need an enormous amount of information, and a real "feel" for the people of the period. To do so I seem to constantly widen my requirements, and the answer seems either ever more elusive, or the question either becomes vague or expands.

And what is the question I hear you ask.

"What enticed (mid-Eastern/Asian/N.African/European) Jews, after the destruction of the second temple, to follow the path of James and Paul, rather than the new Judaism from Yavneh"

It's a deeper question than it first appears, and I have some WONDERFUL literature on the subject. But to KNOW the choices these people had to make, and why they did, is not an impossibility. They were the most interesting of times and I am happy to spend my life understanding it.

TRYPHO
(I really should learn Greek and Aramaic - the latter works for the Talmud too)

[Chorophyll]

13. I'm impressed.

There must be some people around DU who have a clue about this stuff? Not me, sadly.

[TRYPHO]

15. Well, i've read two people who seem EXTREMELY clued up

One of which says (she?) writes on the subject and I believe her. But I'm not cheeky enough to approach for advise direct. But if ANYONE here is ACADEMIC rather than lay PLEASE PM me, as I would love someone to bounce thoughts around with without trying to tweak unrelated DU threads (heaven forbid!).

But to answer the question, its hard enough to believe what you read in a book, since there is a great deal of bias and politics and fear and radicalisation and discrimination around this arena, so to unquestioningly accept anything that was said on a DU thread would be a tad weak.

Truth is usually hidden, deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

TRYPHO

[salvorhardin]

17. You might try the DUer Behind the Aegis

He might know who would be a good person to contact.

[MistressOverdone]

22. I was watching on of those "historical Jesus" shows

the other day and I could swear they guy said that the Talmud discusses Jesus. Do you know if this is true? I always thought it was much older than that, but I am woefully ignorant about it.

[Meshuga]

23. Some claim that he is mentioned

in the talmud but this is the closest you will get:

http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesus.html

If you use these mentions as being the Jesus from Christianity then you get into many troubles like, for example, Jesus might actually be two different people.

[Meshuga]

24. There is also this...

http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesusnarr.html

[salvorhardin]

12. I hate to be pedantic

OK, actually I don't. I live to be pedantic. And here I can be both pedantic and geeky so you've pretty much made my night.

You're actually thinking of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. It's "the one with the whales" as a friend of mine likes to refer to it.

[TRYPHO]

14. That was my gift for you :-)

You're actually thinking of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. It's "the one with the whales"

I knew as I typed it that:

a) It might have been 4 or 5
b) That if I was wrong it would be pointed out
c) That if they did, it would bring them some rapture :-)

My pleasure to bring you pleasure.

TRYPHO

[salvorhardin]

16. Twas appreciated it was

You really know how to make a Trekkie feel good.

I think Harlan Ellison scoffed at Star Trek V's plot by saying "the Enterprise finds God and it either turns out to be a computer or a child." Something like that anyway. This was back when he was doing his film column for Fantasy & Science Fiction.

So ST V actually works pretty well in R&T.

[moggie]

19. Imagine Harlan Ellison participating in R/T

Jesus, that would be a flame-war to behold...

[salvorhardin]

20. ROFL! It'd be biblical, baby, biblical!

Excuse the pun, but it'd be of biblical proportions!

Harlan on religion and belief (bolding mine -- just because I love Ellison's way of wording things)...

In the clue book for the computer version of I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream, Harlan is interviewed by J. Michael Straczynski(?)...

JMS: <...> do you believe that we are alone in the universe?

HE: Do I believe we are alone...How could I know? Look, I'm an atheist. People say to me, do you believe in God? No, I don't believe in God. Because all the Gods that they offer me are completely as crazy as AM in this game. Every god that I've ever heard of, with the exception...if I had to pick a religion, I'd pick Buddhism. Buddhism is a kindly religion. It says you got a chance...it's got humor, it's got wisdom, it says to be nice to each other. All the rest of them have gods that want to beat the crap out of you if you defy the rules. I don't believe that, I'm not an imbecile, I'm not a moron. I have to have some proof of something. When I look at Fundamentalists, I just want, I don't know, hit them in the kisser with a pie. But in fact they rule most of this country, which is kind of sad. I know we're really going to get in trouble on this tape. They're going to edit the hell out of this, god...you know the president of Cyberdreams will see this and his hair will stand on end. I am a pragmatist, I believe in Ockham's razor which says, 'go with the most logical answer, it's probably right.' Occasionally you get fooled, occasionally you get fooled. But we know there is no pelucidar in the center of the earth. We've gotten back seismic readings. We know. We know very well that...that ain't a face on Mars. I don't give a damn how many people, 'It's a face on Mars.' You know, your Momma's face is on Mars. All it is, is a shadow or whatever it is...a rock structure. There's no life on Mars. We may, eventually, someday find life or it may find us, but that's a long way off. It would seem to me it is more in our, more to our benefit to worry about how, learning how to live with each other, which we haven't learned how to do very well, since the dawn of recorded history...than worrying about how the hell were going to deal with creatures with pointy little heads that come down here and want to give us enemas. I hate being so rational, I know that people would love to have me say that, 'I believe that Whitley Streiber did get taken aboard a flying saucer.' No, I think Whitley Streiber, probably a very nice man, is self-delusional. I mean he really believes that by this time, and also it's made him quite a lot of money. But I don't think he did it for the money, I think he really actually believes that. The same way that Joan of Arc thought God talked to her. But God has more important things to do than talk to little French girls in jail. And has more things to do than give you hair growing on the palm on your hand if you masturbate.
http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Harlan_Ellison

[hunter]

21. I could kick Harlan Ellison's ass.

Back when we'd just started dating my wife and I were walking in Santa Monica when I noticed Harlan Ellison walking toward us. I muttered something like "Sh...._t, that's Harlan Ellison" and my wife said, "I know..." and she quickly dragged me across the street to escape him.

I was totally confused. I knew why I wanted to avoid the guy (mostly having to do with me once telling him I could kick his ass) but I didn't know how my wife knew him, or why she wanted to avoid him.

The entire story really doesn't matter, except that our common distaste for Ellison brought my wife and I a little closer together that day.

Mind you, I do enjoy much of Ellison's writing (which is probably all that matters) so thank you, Harlan Ellison.