I'm discouraged. I feel my Lord is far away.

[boomboom]

Talk me out of it. I hate the ebbs and flows of faith............

[ChazII]

1. Talk to Him

about it. Let Him know how you feel.

[illinoisprogressive]

2. I'm not religious but, you sound conflicted and I've heard people who are

religious and feel like this are told to pray for strength to continue on. Or talk to your pastor.
You must be in conflict and so, you feel you have been abadoned. they say that is not unusual. They say praying helps you feel in touch and talking to the Lord about your conflicts and feeling alone and abadoned.

[Goblinmonger]

3. I might encourage you the other way

but that doesn't seem to be what you want.

[boomboom]

6. thanks to all you above.

I'm not discouraged in my faith. I'm discouraged in the world. I remain in prayer. Thanks for your responses.

[Goblinmonger]

8. If that is the case

than I misunderstood your predicament. I can remember days in the seminary where my faith was being challenged and those days led to where I am now--a place where I am very happy. I just wanted to offer that possibility to others if that was the direction they were headed.

With my new understanding, I can say that you know the way back. Just stay true to what you believe and all will be right with you even if it is not so with the rest of the world.

[papau]

13. Goblinmonger & I have opposite points of view on much - but here I agree with him

I am also discouraged in the world - and wish for a why, and for a better world

But ultimately, as important as this world is and as important are our actions in this world, knowing the why is just not that important.

God is - and all will be as it should be in the end

as always - IMHO

[Goblinmonger]

17. Wow, dude

we almost had a moment there. You're going to give me a stroke if you keep saying you agree with me about things. But, seriously, we're all just people here who would most likely have a great time sharing cocktails and stories even thought we fight like cats and dogs in this forum (and I would agrue that the theists are the cats because I think dogs are way cooler).

[papau]

19. Darn - I like dogs better than cats - indeed my friend at one years old this week has

more personality than most humans!

And of course you are correct, we'd most likely have a great time over tea, coffee, and whatever.

I thought your posts excellent in this thread but was afraid to say so, lest it go to your head :-)

I have a potential post I've worked on for this forum for a few weeks that tries to lay out a fair representation of our two sides of this forum - with most of the subsets, but it still needs a lot of work to cut it down to size. A non-confrontational tone is hard to get, as always, plus the folks on your side write a lot as do the ones on my side. Heck it will most likely never be a post as the topic is easily a multi-volume book effort - and I am too old - and never did like doing that much work on anything! Plus others can do that compare and contrast a lot better than I can.

peace -

:-)

[moggie]

22. Dogs are cooler??

You're dead to me now.

To the OP: try reconnecting with nature. Watch a good nature documentary, go for a walk in the woods, look at the night sky. Or spend some time with a CAT: they're very therapeutic.

[Silent3]

26. But house rabbits are the coolest :)

[MistressOverdone]

34. OH NO WAY

Cats are WAY too independent to be theists. Cats are all atheists, period.

Dogs, on the other hand, are eager to please and will wait for you to come home even if you never come, forgive you immediately, and believe everything every other dog tells them. And they roll over and submit. Now how does THAT fit into atheism?

[moggie]

36. Every cat is its own god

It's a sort of deist thing. Us mortals can worship, but it won't do us any good.

[Goblinmonger]

37. Ironically

I thought that exact thing when I made the original dog/cat post. I agree with you. I just grew up with dogs and really enjoy them. And I'm allergic to cats so I can't even be around them. Most, unfortunately, seem to like me because as soon as they get near me my throat closes.

[MistressOverdone]

41. I used to like cats because they are really perfect animals.

They can live with and without us, and only just tolerate our presence.

I love dogs. They are goofy but I think they are pure goodness. Even those bad Jack Russells. Even when they are bad they are pure.

Truly our best friends.

[TomInTib]

4. A major factor of Faith is ebb and flow.

Nothing wrong with that.

One must question in order to grow in one's beliefs.

Your Lord is far away. And that is why you should forever strive to grow close.

You and He will be just fine.


And this was written by an agnostic (me).

[boomboom]

7. thank you tomintib

for an agnostic, you really seem to get my despair.

[TomInTib]

23. We have all been brought to our knees, boomboom.

Either that, or we (individually) have not yet begun to live.

Fall back within your strengths (that is where your soul is, you know) and your self - guided by your Holy Spirit - will lead you out of that place that you have tumbled into.

Tho I walk through the Valley of Death

I should fear no Evil

Or something pretty close to that.

Your Lord is with you, boomboom...

Because you are asking...
Wandering (and I do mean wandering)...
Drifting and wondering (and I do mean wondering) just what has happened.

One of these Days...

Shall we gather at the river.... ?

Yours
at least in Spirit,
Tom

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. Just keep in touch through prayer and meditation

God is always there. We just go through periods of being aware of it or not.

[Penndems]

10. DON'T be discouraged. Continue to pray.

There is a reason for everything. We may not understand why things happen the way they do, but eventually the answer becomes clear to us.

Be patient.

[demnan]

11. You'd probably be better off talking to real people

than on online. Get involved with something outside yourself in your local community. Today everyone is so isolated, but recently I have done this and it has been for me a great spiritual (although secular) experience. So get out in your community. Help someone or meet someone who is helping others. I sincerely think that will renew your faith.

[boomboom]

39. I agree

And I do. I have many faithful people around me. Just were'nt available to me at the time so I thought I'd go "global" Thanks for your thoughtful response

[struggle4progress]

12. Do what demnan suggests.

[Zhade]

14. I suggest you talk to Catbert or Heaven and Earth.

:evilgrin:

Seriously, though, they are GOLDEN.

[Goblinmonger]

15. Second that.

I so often forget how young CatBert is given the wisdom he comes up with.

[More Than A Feeling]

18. Thank you, Zhade and Goblinmonger. Seriously, that means a lot to me.

You have very much brightened my evening! :blush: :yourock: :grouphug:

[Zhade]

58. No need for thanks. You two are inspirations.

NT!

[cosmik debris]

16. I would suggest introspection

The world has always been a shitty place. It always will be. Those of us who live happily in this shitty place do so because of how we feel about it, not because of what it is.

Happiness can come from inside or outside yourself, but despair only comes from within.

[More Than A Feeling]

20. Perhaps watching this video will help.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r72njlusyDI

I wrote a big long message, but this song says it better than I ever could. I have drawn strength from it, and maybe you can, too.

[varkam]

21. I'm not exactly religious...

and I don't exactly believe in God, but I would say that I think it takes the bad times to appreciate the good ones. As Winston Churchill said, when you're going through hell, keep going.

[greyl]

24. Do something good.

[Evoman]

25. When I am feeling down, I go and volunteer at the humane society.

You would think that those poor dogs and cats, being stuck in cages, would make you feel worse. And in some way, maybe your right. But the fact that they are so damn happy to see you, and are so happy just being walked or groomed, makes me feel better. I don't know about some Lord...I'm not one to talk you out of doubt. I think doubt is good. But doing something to help the world, instead of fretting and feeling bad for yourself, may be helpful. Hell...maybe it will make the Lord come running back..heh.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Or, if you're allergic to animals, go volunteer for some people who need

help. In some way, get outside your own despair. You'll heal yourself and perhaps heal someone else.

As St. Theresa of Avila said, "God has no hands in this world but yours."

[Chorophyll]

28. Hi boomboom.

Life gets that way sometimes, whether you're a believer or not. That's just being human. I think posters #34 (hi evoman!) and 37 offered some great advice, though. Just being around other people who are all working toward a goal usually puts things in perspective for me.

Feel better.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

29. Not sure I can give the best advice but I'll try based on my experience

If you are the type of person who likes to pray/meditate/talk to God, then tell Him honestly about your feelings and emotions and why you are feeling discouraged and why you feel that He is distant. Ask Him for guidance, peace, comfort and whatever you need.

I sometimes find when my faith is tested that reciting old prayers and singing hymns uplifts my soul and allows me to feel spiritually connected with God again. Sometimes reading the Bible also assists me –especially the New Testament and books such as the Psalms.

Take a look at the world around you –sometimes seeing the beauty of nature and wildlife can restore your faith and help you feel spiritually connected

If you can, talk to someone about how you are feeling and why you feel disconnected. You’ll sometimes find that other people have unique perspectives and views that can help you in restoring your faith and connecting to your God

Best wishes to you. I hope you can find the spiritual peace and comfort that you are seeking :hug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. Watch your breath

What is it doing right now?

Try this practice. Sit down comfortably, shoulders back but not stiff. Breathe in for a slow count of 7, out for a slow count of seven. Work on modulating your breath so that it is neither too deep nor too shallow. Do this 30 times.

Then remember to watch your breath. This is the key to remembering that God is nearer to you than your jugular vein......

[toddaa]

32. Curious how meditation is a part of all religious traditions

Is this a Sufi ritual?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. No,

it is a common breathing practice. The main ritual that is common to all Sufi orders I know is zkr, which is a ceremony of remembrance, which involves group chanting and movement. One specialized form of zkr that is most known to the public in general is the Sema, which is the ceremony of the Whirling Dervishes.

[toddaa]

31. Try John Coltrane's Love Supreme

Don't know if you like jazz or not, but it's got to help. Coltrane was a very spiritual man and this recording is a four part hymn to God.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

43. And strangely we nontheists love it too.

:hi:

[MistressOverdone]

35. It sucks

it really does, and sometimes it makes me angry, that He choses to hide behind a veil. I suppose there is a reason for that, but through the glass darkly, I don't see it.

I have two mantras, from two very different sources, that help me out. One is from the Bible, I believe. I have no idea where. It is "Be Still and know that I AM."

The other is from the Beatles: "Let is be, let it be, let it be, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom; let it be, let it be."

Another, different approach, is to just stop thinking about it. Keep praying, but get off your knees and do stuff. Help people. Make things. Help people make things. Do something and get good and tired. Faith is ephemeral.

[boomboom]

38. thanks to all of you

I've been sick (flu) so haven't been online to read most of your thoughtful responses. I am praying. I've had some setbacks with some difficult family problems, some uncertainty about my future, but my faith remains strong. Thanks for your responses.

[Zebedeo]

40. Read your Bible

Listen to praise and worship music. Read "The Purpose-Driven Life." Go to church. Read about the Big Bang, and ponder its awesome implications about the Creation of the universe.

God be with you.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

42. You have a star. Go to one of the groups for your specificed religion.

R/T is a catch-all, for both theists and nontheists. It's not the job of the nontheists to make you feel secure in a faith we do not share. R/T is not a conversion hall, as you seem to have treated it of late.

[jgraz]

44. OK, I'll talk you out of it

Your faith is clearly not gtiving you what you need, nor is it ever going to. From your previous posts, professing belief in the rapture and the most magical results of prayer, you are employing a model of religion that is so at odds with the truth that you'll only be able to maintain it through a profound disconnect with reality.

I strongly encourage you to explore other ways of viewing the world and other ways of dealing with your emotional issues. Talk therapy and anti-depressants are actual solutions with proven results. Bible study and talking to imaginary friends is psychological quackery that will only feed the source of your existential angst.

Close your bible, get out in the real world and start talking to actual people. You'll find that many of them do just fine without relying on belief in magical supreme beings. Let your heart accept what your brain already knows: that your god is imaginary and will never give you the peace you seek.

[More Than A Feeling]

45. Agreed, talk therapy is sweet.

The good therapists really, REALLY, know what they are doing. Few things in life feel better than spending an hour with someone trained to really listen and help you find solutions to your problems. If I could find the time and had the money, I'd go every week.

[jgraz]

46. It's too bad that so many therapists shy away from dealing with religious psychopathology

If you go into a therapist's office saying that your life sucks and everyone hates you, they will do everything they can to help you discard those beliefs. But how many will do the same if you say that you talk to an imaginary being who will one day take you bodily up to heaven?

So-called "respect" for these kinds of delusions (there, I said it) allows countless real emotional problems to continue untreated. People addicted to drugs, alcohol, gambling -- even sex -- have established programs to help them overcome their unhealthy attachments. Where are the treatment centers for religious addicts? How do people find help if their main source of despair is an unhealthy attachment to an imaginary god?

[More Than A Feeling]

47. OT:I bring you your daily dose of ambivalent religion news...

Enjoy the incoherent headline!

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/210/story_21093_1.html

[boomboom]

48. I get it. Took me a while

For some reason there is no place for Christian faith on the RELIGION/THEOLOGY thread. Not sure which "star" I should pursue. I thought the R/T thread was where people of faith, who were also democrats, might talk about faith. Sooooooooo sorry I intruded on your patience. Sheez. Go back to your cynical, hopeless forums. I'm sure your own star will get you in there. Good luck.

[jgraz]

49. There's a place for Christians, less so for passive-aggressive Christians

If you don't want your beliefs challenged, you should probably stick to the dedicated faith forums. Otherwise, you'll see all viewpoints here.

You'll also find that you won't get a lot of play from atheists if you call them cynical and hopeless. Nothing could be further from the truth. To us, your continued pursuit of a nonexistent father-figure is the epitome of hopelessness.

Seriously, do yourself a favor and at least read up on atheism. You may find your mind freed from some very destructive fantasies.

[boomboom]

50. That's not going to happen.

I don't mean you don't have a right to your opinion. But, frankly we'll never see eye to eye. I don't consider my beliefs destructive fantasies. I spent 45 years denying my belief. Dedicated faith forums? Really? I'll do a search. Do those who don't have dedicated faith not go there to argue?

[boomboom]

52. Serious question

What hope do atheists believe in? I assume it's to make the best life possible on this earth. Is that correct? No judgement, just asking.......

[jgraz]

56. We have the same hopes as everyone else, minus the eternal life fantasy

If you only define hope as a wish for your ego to continue into infinity, then you probably won't understand the rest of what I have to say. The simple fact is that there are many people who have found hope, happiness, morality, fulfillment and love without needing to believe in magical beings.

All of those things are part of us, all of that potential is there as our birthright as humans. Finding out that you have access to your full human potential without the need for bronze-age fantasies is one of the most hopeful things someone can experience.

[Chorophyll]

57. You know...

I am a person of faith.

Yet I do *not* define hope as a wish for my ego to continue into infinity, nor do I believe in any bronze-age fantasies. It doesn't matter to me what, if anything, happens to us after death. That fear (or ego trip) might be the basis for some people's faith, but it's not the case for everyone.

I hope you can understand why your choice of words is insulting.

[jgraz]

59. Yet you seem to be cool if atheists are called hopeless and cynical

Why is it always the faithful who need to be treated with kid gloves? If you're secure in your faith, you shouldn't be bothered by what I think of it.

If you don't define hope as an infinite ego trip or follow bronze-age fantasies, then why are you insulted that I'm against that sort of religion?

[Chorophyll]

60. Actually I'm not cool if atheists are called

hopeless and cynical. And you're right, I should have jumped on that comment too. I'm sorry I didn't. I'm a bit touchy from my time spent in the "Delusion" thread.

And actually...no, I'm not "secure" in my faith. I hope I never will be.

[jgraz]

61. The problem is not the insult, it's the ignorance

When boomboom posted her comments, she was speaking from an ignorance of atheism that many people on this list tend to think is just fine. Remember, the "delusion" thread you refer to was started after several theists refused to read "The God Delusion" simply based on its title.

Most of the atheists on this forum show the theists the ultimate respect we know: we actually learn about your beliefs before we comment on them. Most of us have even spent years sincerely considering if your beliefs might be true. I'd love it if the theists would show us a similar amount of respect before they start flinging around broad pronouncements about our world view.


Edit: One sentence was missing a

[Chorophyll]

62. I spent about 20 years as an atheist.

I feel no need to read The God Delusion. There's a lot of stuff I don't read. Including the Bible and a bunch of other "religious" books. I think being an atheist is fine and dandy. I think being a theist is fine and dandy. I don't think any of us should be trying to prove the other wrong, and certainly not trying to convert anyone.

The OP here may be problematic, but you don't have to answer her if you don't want to.

Everyone here seems to "fling around broad pronouncements"... it's tiresome, frankly. Peace.

[jgraz]

63. "I don't think any of us should be trying to prove the other wrong"

Actually, I'd be extremely grateful if you could prove me wrong. After all, you'd be saving me from an eternity of unimaginable torture. I think it's interesting, however, that the folks with no evidence for their beliefs are the only ones who seem to be asking that no one try to prove them wrong.

As far as trying to convert anyone...well, the OP did ask, after all. :evilgrin:

[Chorophyll]

69. Oh go ahead, prove me wrong.

Just don't be so nasty! :)

Seriously though, I'm not a theist of the "eternity of unimaginable torture" variety, so I can't help you there.

[jgraz]

72. Here's something I posted on the Atheist forum

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/jgraz/42

I didn't want to post it here and have a massive flame war, but someday I may clean it up for general consumption. The basic idea is that atheists and theists are not just arguing about the existence of god, but about our entire methodology of making observations and proving or disproving facts.

[Chorophyll]

73. jgraz, thanks for this.

You're an excellent writer, by the way. I hope everybody will follow your link.

My knowledge of science is paltry, but I agree with everything you said about the observable behavior of the universe. I do not dispute any of it. But even with impeccable science, I don't think one can prove or disprove the existence of god.

For the purposes of your your piece, you defined god as: "an all-powerful, all-knowing entity who created the entire universe through sheer force of will...someone who can hear our thoughts, affect our reality and grant us eternal life after our material bodies have died..."

Well, that's one concept of god, but it's not everyone's. (Certainly not mine.) You may have to figure out precisely which god's existence you want to disprove.

On the other hand, I can't prove bugger-all to you. So... no flame from me.

[MistressOverdone]

77. I agree with you

and that is a well written post. I have always said there are more basic differences between believers and non believers than appears on the surface of just is there/isn't there. I believe much has to do with the way a person solves problems, their level of intuition, flexibility, and their attitude towards science. There is a continuum from those who don't trust science to those who make a religion of it.

Evidently, the existence of God cannot be proven. But many of us have long life histories of personal, internal observations about our lives and such things as coincidence, prayer, serendipity, etc., that leads us to faith. But faith is never perfect, or it won't be until we see those feet in the clouds for ourselves, or as in my faith, put my hands in the wounds myself.

But then the bottom line is that we are, despite our differences, all humans with the same wants, needs, fears, joys, sorrows, all despite our intellectual or academic approached to life.

[Evoman]

64. If someone could prove you wrong, you wouldn't want them to?

Really?

[jgraz]

65. I wouldn't want to live in a world where people could prove me wrong

or something like that...

[Evoman]

66. I wouldn't want to live in a world where people COULDN'T prove me wrong.

Or at least provide me with evidence that countered an idea in my mind. I challenge people to do just that...as long as its rational and coherent. Believing something because the alternative is unpleasant is just bizarre to me.

[Chorophyll]

68. Hmmmm.

I like a little uncertainty and mystery in life. (Shrug.) If someone eventually proves there's no god, I'd be okay with that. (I'd have to be, right?)

[cyborg_jim]

70. There are plenty of mysteries without having to invent new ones

[Chorophyll]

71. Thanks cyborg-jim, I'll mull that over. n/t

[cyborg_jim]

89. Any conclusions ;)

[Chorophyll]

90. Been busy. Short on mulling time. Will continue to mull ASAP. :)

[MistressOverdone]

75. Ah, but

there are also many folks who have found hope, happiness, morality, fulfillment and love through their faith.

Different strokes and all.

I'm glad for you that you are so centered. As for eternal life being a fantasy, I guess we will just have to wait to see who is right or wrong there. Happily, if I'm wrong I won't know it.

[jgraz]

88. But we really don't have to wait

The concept of an eternal afterlife fits every criteria necessary to be defined as a fantasy. It is a wondrous imaginary idea based on no evidence whatsoever. Whether or not it happens to be true in some metaphysical sense has no bearing on this.

I have a fantasy that George Bush will someday be hauled from the White House in chains. If this later turns out to be true (ohplease ohplease ohplease) it doesn't change the fantastical nature of my idea.

From a scientific perspective, using generally recognized definitions of "evidence", "true" and "false" we can state categorically that the universe cannot allow for such a thing as life after death, eternal or not. You can choose to redifine those fundamental concepts to fit your beliefs, but you should be aware of the extent to which you are rejecting well-established and universally accepted standards of evidence and observation.

[boomboom]

78. You're right and I apoligize. Just because I don't agree with, or actually, understand

your point of view, I shouldn't have said "cynical and hopeless." What I mean is, I think we do all have the same hopes and fears and needs and loves on this earth. But if this is all there is, who cares? What's the point? Again, I apologize. I've had the flu.

[jgraz]

79. But that's not all there is

Life, the universe and everything has been around long before we existed and will be around long after we're gone. Our hope is bound up in the effects we have on others and on the world around us. Those effects will survive long after our personal line of experience comes to an end.

One of the reasons I shy away from religion is many western traditions tend to be all about the continuation of the personal ego. I think my own memories and experiences are much less important than the impression I leave on the world. If I can die knowing that I lived well and left this place a little better than it was, then that's more than enough for me.

[boomboom]

80. I think to those of us who aren't atheist, life the universe and everything

that has been around us since eternity is called the Lord. You obviously have a moral code or standard in which you believe, in that you feel you should live well and leave this place a little better. I guess I feel....who made the moral standard? If life was just about here on earth, why not be dog eat dog. This is simplistic typing, but I hope you understand what I'm saying.

[More Than A Feeling]

81. Sounds to me like he came up with it himself, and he did a fine job.

Is there something wrong with that? Are human beings completely unable to adhere to moral codes which they make themselves?

The answer to why not be dog eat dog is that that way of life would suck. We'd all have to be constantly looking over our shoulders, and spending way more on personal defense than we have to now. My life is better when I don't have to worry about my neighbor breaking into my appartment, stealing my stuff and killing me, just because he decides that he's bigger, stronger, or smarter than me. And he doesn't have to deal with me lurking around with the same objective.

[jgraz]

83. I don't think I came up with it myself at all

There's a growing body of evidence that morality is an evolved trait, just like big brains and opposable thumbs. We seem to be hard-wired for moral reasoning in the same way we're hard-wired to develop language.

One can imagine that ancient tribes who had a sense of morality and ethics would be able to cooperate much better and out-compete other groups who hadn't developed this sophisticated form of behavior. Individuals in that tribe who didn't follow their morals would be much less likely to find mates and pass on their genes.

The case for a biological source for basic morals is pretty strong. You don't need a creator for morality anymore than you need one for eyes or a backbone.

[cyborg_jim]

84. Even dogs are not dog eat dog

But then those who assert morality must flow from a higher power are not exactly going to be big on observing how social groups are perfectly able of arising by themselves based on simple social principles.

[jgraz]

85. Though I really wish they weren't dog eat dog poo

:puke:

[Chorophyll]

51. If you go to "Lobby" and scroll down

to "DU Groups" you'll eventually see "Christian Liberals / Progressive People of Faith," among others. If you post there you'll get more of the support you're looking for.

And I think the star the poster referred to was the one next to your name, which means you donated to DU. Not sure why that was relevant, unless you need that to officially join a group(?).

[boomboom]

53. Yeah, that star thing confused me too.

I've given many times to this board. I am a democrat. I guess i get confused as to why we dems aren't more "tolerant" Oh well, I'm a fundamentalist democrat. And proud of it.

[Chorophyll]

54. This is a tough forum.

I've gotten into a couple of discussions here where I was literally lying awake at 2:00 a.m., thinking about how I *should* have responded to a particular post. Sometimes you have to just step away from the keyboard.

But there's a lot of great stuff all over DU, and again, the Progressive People of Faith group is far less contentious than Religion/Theology.

[boomboom]

55. thanks, I love DU also overall. I'll take your advice.

Luckily, my keyboard step back is usually at 10:00pm. Amazingly, this delusional person actually is a CPA.....

[Evoman]

67. And DU loves you.

;)

[Crunchy Frog]

82. You might find this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=291 a more convivial place to hang out. R/T is mainly a forum for people with widely divergent views to debate with each other. That other forum is a place for progressive Christians to hang out and support each other.

You do need a star to post in it, but you seem to have one.

[MistressOverdone]

74. It is comforting to me to know

there are folks like you who believe they have all the answers to questions humans have been asking for millenia. Only a human could be so arrogantly certain. You do our species proud.

[More Than A Feeling]

76. There have been atheists for millenia, too.

jgraz most likely doesn't think he is saying anything new.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

86. And we woulkd say that only a human could be so arrogant as to assume the typical

theist stance, which is that there is a man out there who cares for you and will save your ass time and time again.

[jgraz]

87. Funny how those who follow science are called "arrogantly certain"

But if you make absolute pronouncements -- based on no evidence whatsoever -- about the creation of the universe, the source of human purpose and morality and the nature of life after death; if you assert that the creator is personally interested in your thoughts and that you and your species were the ultimate reason that said creator decided to make the universe in the first place...

...and if you think that your pronouncements are exactly right while the billions of other people who make similar yet slightly different pronouncements are completely wrong...

then you're not arrogant at all. You're just expressing your faith.