communism = atheism ?

[YankeyMCC]

I don't think so but I'm no expert so I'm asking the question.

Certainly given that there are so many communists in so many diverse cultures and the fact that they are HUMAN BEINGS there is no way all communists are atheists.

But even looking at the core tenants of the communists belief. My understanding that it is a rejection of organized religion not necessarily a rejection of the existence of a god.

Couldn't a loyal, devoted, card carrying communist work to destroy organized religious institutions but still believe in god?

On edit: LoL I typed "...no wall all communists are artists." instead of atheists...fixed.

[vi5]

1. I think the connection is the tenet of nothing being above the state

..if I"m not mistaken.

[Modem Butterfly]

2. Religion is the opiate of the masses

As true today as when it was written.

As Martin Luther will tell you, one doesn't have to be a Communist to work to destroy an organized religious institution while believing in God.

[sui generis]

3. communism is also about preserving itself

so individualism is deprioritized, cultural identity is suppressed, and social means of disseminating information are quashed.

It's not about "atheism" so much as the idea that any social organization exists only to serve the state. This prevents overt opposition and the spread of radical "liberal" ideas from forming, at least in theory.

[prodigal_green]

4. communism doesn't allow for religion

socialism, on the other hand, is quite comfortable with religion.

[murray hill farm]

8. It is not faith that is bothersome to communism.

and even then, it depends on the existing connection ..in a power sense..between the power that is supported by the religion..if , as in most pre communist states, the power of the church reinforces the power of the pre communist state..then the organized orientation of the church would be in opposition to the building of the communism..as the new form of govt for the state. In which case, they could not exist comfortable together in the support of the new government system. In the truest sense...religion is supportive of communism..all religions...in their purist form of belief are communistic. It is the organized form of religion..and the social power they represent, that most likely would be counter communism.

[Az]

5. Systems can be atheistic

But this in no way requires that atheism be the core of its position.

Atheism has no dogma. No doctrine. Its just a statement of condition.

Social, Political, and Religious systems can have dogmas and doctrines. Some of these may be theistic or atheistic. Depending on the priorities it these may or may not be the focus of the system.

Communism is not focused on Atheism. In fact the original manifesto embraces freedom of religion. The trouble is that in practice a system that requires individuals to submit themself to the needs of the society is going to need to override the beliefs of the individuals.

Thus in practice as exemplified by the Soviety Union any system of thought or belief that contended with the official Soviet position was demonized and punished. By necessity the USSR was atheistic. Atheism is a null condition and without a belief. Any belief that might rise up to cause trouble for the Soviets had to be phased out leaving everyone with no beliefs other than in the state.

[Stunster]

6. The official ideology of Communism

in the 20th century was atheistic materialism. This can be traced to Engels more than to Marx, but militant atheism was standard Communist Party doctrine in the USSR, all Communist Parties affiliated with Moscow, as well as all Trotskyist parties.

Even in Communist countries which split from Moscow, such as Yugoslavia, China, Romania and Albania, atheism continued to be official Communist doctrine, and was taught in schools. The last-named country, Albania, was the most zealous in exterminating religion, and proclaimed itself in 1967 as the world's first officially atheist country under the dictatorship of Enver Hoxha.

The Cuban Communist Party lifted the ban on believers being members some time in the 1990s, after the fall of the USSR.

[Modem Butterfly]

10. What exactly is militant atheism anyway?

:shrug:

[Stunster]

18. What Enver Hoxha did in Albania (n/t)

[trotsky]

29. Here you go, MB.

[whistle]

7. Well gee, labels can smear just about anything, so here is....

...a piece that may just refute that claim:

<snip>

Atheism: An Affirmative View (1980)
Emmett F. Fields

What is Atheism that it survives? Every religion, from earliest times, has hated and condemned those who could not believe whatever it was that those old religions happened to believe. Throughout the ages there have been the 'intellectual outlaws' who have questioned the "unquestionable," and doubted even the very existence of the gods. And those individual thinkers have been hated, hunted, persecuted, and murdered by the religious believers. Yet the Atheists and doubters are very much with us today, but those old religions, and the gods they created, have long since ceased to trouble the thoughts of mankind.

If Atheism is considered to be a religion, then it is easily the oldest living religion in the world. Properly stated, Atheism is truly "that old time religion" that the Baptists keep singing about.

Atheism is a difficult subject only because of the slander and misrepresentations preached and published against it. Even the information that is available in our most trusted and respected reference books is the distorted and prejudiced view presented by religion. Just as in Communist countries, where the articles on Capitalism, democracy, politics, etc., are always written by Communists and from the Communist point of view, so in Christian dominated societies, such as the United States, all articles on Atheism, Rationalism, Freethought, etc., that are to be found in encyclopedias and other reference books, are written by theologians, and from the Christian point of view.

<more>

<link> http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/emmett_fields/affirmative_atheism.html

One other notion from the article states: <snip>

"America was not established to have any dominant ideology. The United States was meant to be 'a free marketplace of ideas,' where every opinion could be heard and considered."


Given that, it is my opinion, that one can be an atheist and practice capitalism or communism, democracy or totalitarianism just as well as one who has some deep religious commitment and belief.

[papau]

9. The other side of that is also true - Jesus's words describe a communal

way of acting - one that is not so different from Marx's ideal.

Perhaps "socialist" is a better term for the communal attitude -

In any case the values involved make Christians look like Marxist types - if they follow Jesus's Teachings.

[whistle]

12. Right, pure Christianity, the kind which was practiced during....

...the first century following Jesus's crucification as adopted in the last century by the Oxford Group movement which advocated the four absolutes and the four questions of good Christian living:

1. Absolute Honesty

2. Absolute Unselfishness

3. Absolute Purity

4. Absolute Love



4 Questions

1. Is it true of false??

2. is it right or wrong??

3. how will it affect others??

4. is it ugly or beautiful??


<more> http://www.aabibliography.com/oxfordsteps.html

[TomClash]

11. Liberation theology

tried to reconcile Marxism and Christianity in the early 70s, particularly in Latin America. Archbishop Romero, slain in El Salvador in 1980, was probably its best known proponent.

Virtually every political power opposed it, the USSR, the USA, the Church and all cosnervatives everywhere.

The early Christians, especailly the apostles, lived quite communally.

[Jim__]

13. Couldn't a loyal, devoted, card carrying communist ...

still believe in god?

I don't think so. Not if by communist you mean Marxist. The philosophy of Marx and Engels has been labeled Dialectical Materialism; and I think "materialism", the belief that all existnece is based on matter, precludes a belief in god.

[papau]

14. I agree - but Marx defines a way of living that does not

need a non-belief in God -

at least that is how I remember it 40 years later :-)

Marx's secular theology focused on practical ways of eliminating the stark gap between rich and poor. He wrote:

"Religious distress is ... the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world ... It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion is required for their real happiness."

Jesus says the most important rule is, "Listen, Israel, the Lord your God is one Lord. You've got to love the Lord your God with your whole being - with your whole heart and every ounce of energy." And the second most important rule is, "You must love your fellow human beings as much as you love yourself." No other rule is greater than these two. (Mark 12.29-31)

With these words, Jesus abolishes religion of the sort which tries to cajole God into doing our will. He pioneers the way for Paul and, much later, for Marx as they point out that religion can neither buy God's approval nor bring social justice.

The upshot for us today is, I think, to recognise that religion in churches on Sunday doesn't define Christians. Nor are they defined by an ability to believe seven impossible things before breakfast.

But they are defined by a choice to love rather than by obedience to religious laws (says Jesus); by a willingness to abandon the security of external ceremonies (says Paul); and

PERHAPS

because they have gone cold turkey on the drug of religion as a substitute for social justice (says Marx). Marx rejects Religion - but he need only do so so as to get us off of using religion as an excuse to ignore social justice.

The nature of Marxism as a religion has long been recognized by its critics - as well as it being a perhaps perverse imitation of Christianity.

Marx took his economic beliefs and - having been baptized as a Christian, had affirmed an evangelical faith in his teens - turned in fury against God in his early twenties because of how he saw the poor being treated under capitalism, with the rich using religion to justify ignoring things like the Bush tax cuts for the rich causing harm to the poor. I do not think his economic ideas require the rejection of God.

[YankeyMCC]

15. but...

religion doesn't equal god.

As you point out papau, Jesus could be seen as abolishing religion.

Marx's admonition against religion doesn't necessarily equal an admonition of belief in god.

Again I'm just asking it seems to me people are equating god and religion and I don't think that's correct.

Of course you say that Marx "turned in fury against god" so perhaps he was making the same equation (religion = god) that I think is an incorrect equation.

[papau]

16. I think we agree!

:-)

[aneerkoinos]

17. Here

This site might interest (or amuse) some people:

Gnostics and social revolution

http://www.gnostics.com/

And

New Aeon Socialist Journal:

"What makes the NEW AEON SOCIALIST JOURNAL unique within the context of the Socialist Labor Movement is that the editorial policy affirms the desirability of spiritual recognition within the context of contemporary Working Class Politics and Marxist Movement. Atheists, too, have a spiritual dimension (although many tend to deny it)."

http://www.gnostics.com/nasm.html

[rogerashton]

19. Big C -- little c

Marxism, as a world-view, is atheistic, but is not the only communist view.

Anarcho-communists, for example, rejected Marxism. They were, however, also atheistic -- Bakunin said, "If God existed, it would be necessary to abolish him."

Nevertheless -- if small-c communism means, as I think it does, "from each according to her abilities, to each according to her needs," I don't see anything there inconsistent with a belief in God and the book of Acts portrays early Christians as living approximately according to that rule.

The League of Militant Atheists was a Soviet organization aimed at opposing religion.

http://www.atheisms.info/atheisms/soviet.html

Perhaps atheists need such an organization now.

[VermonterInExile]

31. It's interesting, though...

My husband, as a naive young man, belonged to the Israeli Communist Party. He went on scholarship to Moscow University, but was so disillusioned after one year that he returned home and renounced the party.

He has many stories about Communists from Muslim countries, in particular Yemen and Afghanistan, who were also very observant Muslims. He says it never made sense to him, but all of the Yemenite Communists he knew prayed five times daily. So in practice Communism was synthesized with religion in some cultures...

[moobu2]

20. Organized religion can not stand communism

because it's a threat to their power structure and they're all about protecting that at all costs..

[T_i_B]

21. Given the record of communist regimes...

...in persecuting organized religion of all stripes, and given Marx's own view that "religion is the opiate of the masses" which tends to inspire such behaviour in states such as North Korea the answer would have to be something along the lines of no.

And western Marxist parties such as the Socialist Workers party are no better. Fundamentalist atheism is rife in groups such as the SWP.

Of course it does not have to be like this. Like it or not the New Testament is a huge influence on pure Communism, as well as tracts such as Utopia which is seen as both a Catholic and a communist tract. And lest we forget we also have liberation theology. However, in reality Marxists hate religion so passionatly that religious types have little choice but to oppose them.

[arwalden]

22. Heh-heh... "Fundamentalist atheism "

that term always cracks me up! :eyes:

[YankeyMCC]

23. You mean "Fundamentalist communism (or Marxism)"

There's nothing in atheism to be "fundamental" about. If you're point is that atheism is a tenant of communism you're supporting that by describing attacks on religion.

Please, don't take this as a defense of either communism or the attacks on religious institutions perpetrated by these regimes. I'm just looking to discuss.

But I don't think attacking a religious institution necessarily equates to atheism. I know I was anti-religious (not caring to belong to any church) well before I was atheist.

[T_i_B]

26. Fundamentalist communism is a good term

as communist regimes do have a track record of replacing worship of God with worship of the state and worship of whoever the dictator in charge happens to be (North Korea is a very good example of this).

And yes, Marxism is virtually a religion for many of it's adherants. Now there are plenty of other political ideologies who fall foul in this respect but Marxism is the example that most people will have come across.

Attacking religious institutions is something that all religions fall foul of, and atheism is no different in that regard. There are atheists who are so militant that they feel the need to persecute people who do belive in God just as there are theists who feel the need to persecute atheists. Bigotry is as rife in atheism as it is everywhere else I'm afraid.

Communist regimes, with their track record of abolishing the right to religious expression give full reign to the very worst in atheism. That I'm afraid is why for many people Communism is incompatable with religious belief.

[Stunster]

30. There are literally thousands

of texts published by leading Communists and Communist regimes describing and promoting 'militant atheism', and calling upon the Party to struggle militantly against religion.

Lenin in particular absolutely believed that atheism was utterly central to Communism, and that atheist propaganda should be zealously promoted among the people at large.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/mar/12.htm

And here's Leon Trotsky on the subject:

Is our attack on religion legitimate or illegitimate? It is legitimate. Has it brought any results? It has. Whom has it drawn to us? Those who by previous experience have been prepared to free themselves completely from religious prejudices. And further?

There still remain those whom even the great revolutionary experience of October did not shake free from religion. And here the formal methods of anti-religious criticism, satire, caricature and the like can accomplish very little. And if one presses too strongly one may get an opposite result. One must drill the rock — it is true the rock is not very firm —block it up with dynamite sticks, use indirect attack. After a while there will be a new explosion and a new fall-off, that is, another layer of the people will be torn from the large mass… The resolution of the eighth meeting of the Party tells us that in this field we must at present pass from the explosion and the attack to a more prolonged work of undermining, first of all, by the way of the propaganda of the natural sciences.
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/view/3395

[davidinalameda]

24. Big C communism is

little c communism isn't

what Marx and Engles and Lenin and the rest of that crazy bunch did was replace worship of gods with worship of state

but you have a long history of little c communism being based on common religious practices--the Shakers come to mind

[YankeyMCC]

25. I like the way you put that.

[aneerkoinos]

27. Spiritual socialism

Here's a piece I wrote on another thread:

Pursuit of happiness, was said. American people are probably the most unhappy in the world, so should be pretty obvious by now that materialistic individualism aka consumerism just doesn't cut it. Stuff and more and more of stuff don't make people happy, just even more unsatisfied.

"Individualism" (what kind of individualism is it when every bloody individualist is acting the same, buying what advertisers launch as the newest coolest and most individualistic self-fulfilling stuff) don't make people happy either, there's some deep need to feel part of some community that dogma of egotistic individualism does not fulfill.

There is also reason why most people don't buy into the materialistic paradigm served by mainstream science. It just doesn't make any sense to people and goes against their most basic experience that consciouss mind is just epiphenomenon of matter and we are really nothing but deterministic walking zombies - well mostly we are, but that is not quite everything. There is some sense of whole/holy that is beyond words but most people have some familiarity with, in their guts people know that mind is just as real as matter. So the deep unsatisfaction that by necessity goes with the world explanation of the materialist paradigm drives many people to fundie christianity, which certainly does not make things generally better.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is what I'm talking about, sortta. For people to be able to pursuit happiness with a moderate chance of success, first their basic material, individual and social needs need to be fullfilled, then comes spiritual pursuit. US society has stuck like a broken record on the level of individual needs. Thus: Spiritual Socialism!

[catbert836]

28. I just so happen to be a Christian Socialist

But I reject any communist regime that does not alow their citizens to worship freely.