I believe in God; I am in school to be a Minister. I have a couple of

[Thtwudbeme]

questions.

WHY does religion make people act so damned stupid???

I mean, gotta tell ya folks...I don't get it.

Fundies: there is NO proof that Jesus existed.

Catholics: the Pope is not my church leader, and does NOT have a direct cell phone to God. Sorry he's dying, dears, but expect to take some heat over his policies.

Skeptics: Cool, you don't believe. Groovy. I don't care.

Anti-abortion folks: if you don't like them, don't have them. Get out of everyone else's life.

I am so freaking sick of people's mealy-assed opinions being soooo very important. Get over yourselves.

[JimmyJazz]

1. Why are you in the lounge with this and not General Discussion?

[Thtwudbeme]

2. Because I felt like it

Seriously.

[LoZoccolo]

3. Without the abortion thing...

...it's not a political discussion.

[JimmyJazz]

4. There is General Discussion and General Discussion: Politics -

I just don't think this is lounge material - IMHO.

[Thtwudbeme]

7. My goodness

for someone that doesn't like this thread, you are on it almost more than me.

Thanks for the kicks.

[JimmyJazz]

8. Don't even go there. I didn't say anything was wrong with it other than

I don't view it as lounge material...Again, IMHO.

[saltpoint]

5. I just want to take this opportunity to say how much --

-- I like potato salad.

I've always liked it, or at least as long as I remember.

Now of course you may say, But hey, Old Crusoe, you didn't even know about it when you were a baby, because no one FEEDS potato salad to babies.

But hey you are so wrong. My grandfather would spoon some out for me off his picnic plate. I admit I don't have a specific memory of eating potato salad that early but it is nevertheless true that I enjoy it now and probably enjoyed it from an early age.

I love potato salad. It's just so durned tasty.

[JimmyJazz]

6. Do you like it with or without skins?

I think I like it with the potato skins :9

[saltpoint]

9. With the skins, without -- I just love it.

I'd eat it all night if you let me.

[mr blur]

10. Well,

Ministers: Cool, you do believe. Groovy. Who cares?

[renegade000]

11. i pretty much mirror your sentiments

except maybe in a less bluntly worded way ;).

the metaphysical tenets that religions are based on aren't exactly things that can be proven or disproven in any sorta scientific/universally agreeable way, so all the vocal religion vs. religion vs. atheism vs. whatever else you've got debate will never amount to anything. everyone should just stop getting so upset and just learn to respect each others beliefs and differences.

[Tux]

32. FInally someone gets it!

[MissMarple]

12. Well, Bishop Tutu was on AA yesterday. He says religion is neutral.

Or something like that. And people use it for different things. He used a knife analogy, a knife can be used in surgery, cut your veggies, whittle a whistle, ...or slit a throat. He didn't use those exact examples, but you get the idea.

So, fundies use their religion for control, other use it to connect to the divine. Others...:shrug: Religion isn't the problem, people are. Same old, same old.

Sorry corrected for wrong pronoun.

[Az]

13. You dismiss skeptics and yet you ask questions of your own faith

Perhaps a skeptics outside viewpoint may lend you the insite you desire. And yet you have already dismissed us.

[Thtwudbeme]

15. Try again. I am married to an atheist. Think you know him

that would be JanMichael of DU fame. I have that skeptic perspective 24/7.

[Az]

20. You missed the point

You yourself are skeptical. Yet you don't seem to recognise this. You want answers and yet turn your nose up to those who may have some insite.

I have what I believe is some insite into the issue of the questions you have. But I am not sure that you would care to hear it. You seem to have already pigeon holed me and dismissed anything I might have to say.

[Thtwudbeme]

21. I am spending hours a day for 7 years

gaining insight into this; you are wrong, I am very open to it.

If you have some insight, please pass it along. I think Michael might have something to say about this also.

Stephanie

[bigendian]

38. You don't get answers if you don't ask questions.

:kick:

[Padraig18]

14. Shouldn't this be in Religion and Theology?

That's what happens to other posts about 'religion'.

[Thtwudbeme]

16. Pad...are you and another DUer

not a couple??

Excuse me, I might have you confused with someone else, but I thought you were involved in a same sex marriage or SO situation with another DUer.

If I am correct, how in the HELL can you condone the Papal crap about gays in the church? And why am I madder than you are?

It chaps my ass that the Catholic church won't recognize same sex marriages....or any other church for that matter. Or, God help me, the US of America....

But, how can you sit at your computer and tell me that the Catholic Church is A-OK with you???

[Padraig18]

17. We are.

And how I can 'be OK' with it is, pardon my saying so, none of your damned business. I also happen to think that cicrumcision is barbaric, but I don't go around flaming Jews and Muslims for doing it.

[Padraig18]

19. And good night, too.

I'm sorry I'll miss the champagne and party hats if the Pope dies during the night.

:argh:

[DemBones DemBones]

41. Good for you, Paddy!

Padraig :yourock:

[Misinformed01]

43. Why "good for him?"

If you come onto a public board, and post nice things about a man who is the head of a church that is DELIBERATELY hurting your social group...and someone asks why.....then reply snippily..."none of your business..." why do you think that's good?

[DemBones DemBones]

47. Because Padraig has no obligation to answer questions

from other people about a personal matter. It's obvious that no answer would satisfy Stephanie or you, anyway.

[Thtwudbeme]

50. No, it's not "obvious," Dembones.

Padraig and his partner have been on the Catholic threads repeatedly--I can't remember the specifics, but they are usually in favor of the Church and the Pope.

When asked "why" Padraig answered "none of my business." If his position on the Catholic Churh's doctrines is private, fine. But, why bother showing up on these threads, or (in his partner's case) starting them? It should be obvious to anyone now that the Church is going to be a "hot" issue, particularly concerning recent statements made by the Pope concerning Homosexuals.

Now, on a personal note to you, I read your post that was deleted, I didn't respond fast enough because it was my birthday, and Michael had just cooked me dinner...but, I have got to tell you, I do not know why it was deleted. You had some very fair comments in there---and I would address them, but I cannot remember them for the life of me. 41 isn't working too well for me today; my first day of middle age isn't going to be all that easy apparently!

I stand by my comments that I made, and am interested to know which one you disagree with...or if you disagree with all of them.

Stephanie

On edit: my other DU name is "Misinformed01." I accidentally logged onto that last night. My husband's name is JanMichael...sometimes he is logged on, and I respond to people on that too...just so you don't think I am playing games.

[DemBones DemBones]

60. I disagree with all of your comments because

they are all in the spirit of "I am so superior to all those idiots." Coupled with the fact that within recent weeks you also started threads 1) complaining about those praying for Pope John Paul II (and said some nasty things about him), and 2) praying that the next Pope will in essence be a Protestant who agrees completely with you, I wonder why you want to go into ministry. You seem to have no use for most of your fellow Christians, including liberal ones here at DU, and I can guarantee you that most ministers don't have a congregation full of DU-style liberals.

If you can question Padraig being Catholic, I think I should be able to ask you why you want to go into ministry and how you hope to fit in.

I don't know what denomination you expect to be a minister in, but I'd think you should expect to be part of a local ministerial association that includes both Catholic clergy and fundamentalist Protestant preachers.

Apart from Episcopal Bishop Spong and whatever followers he has, you won't find many Christian clergy stating that there is no evidence that Jesus really lived.

Nor will you find many saying "if you don't like abortion, don't have one," since many Christians are coming to the conclusion that something needs to be done about the continued slaughter of a million unborn babies a year, few of them for medical reasons, rape, or incest.

And, although anti-Catholicism is certainly common, most consider it tasteless to state such bigotry publicly, especially for a minister to do so.

But, really, the bottom line is why do you want to go into ministry? Perhaps you love humanity but you seem to have difficulty liking people who differ from you.

[Thtwudbeme]

77. Not sure where to start with this, but I will try

I have wanted to go into the ministry for most of my life; it was only after I turned 35 that I felt like I had enough life experience behind me to go ahead and start the 8 years of school that I would need--(yes, I know I said seven before, but I had to add time for something else.)

Funny you should mention Spong; he is my "hero," and yes-I am an Episcopalian.

I do not want a congregation; I don't have the type of ego needed for that job, nor the temperament---I want to go back and work in the ER. (Former paramedic)

Now for the abortion issue: I stick to my guns on this one--I have worked out my abortion "demons" in my head a long time ago, and feel that it's a personal issue for every single person. You might not like abortion, but the fact is at the end of the day, it's none of your business unless you happen to be the pregnant person--and again...hopefully in that situation, everyone would respect your personal and private opinion.

[Dookus]

89. You may be right

that few Christian ministers would state that there is no evidence that Jesus really lived.

But that doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence that Jesus really lived.

[arwalden]

90. Facts Are Stubborn Things...

... aren't they?

[MissMarple]

18. I wonder how long before the Americans bolt?

The contraception thing alone is enough to gag a maggot. Umm...sorry if I offend.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. Oh, some will, some won't. The Church is growing exponentially in

Africa, SOuth America, and Asia, though, and it is the more conservative Catholicism that is preferred there. The world of the future is going to be made up largely of fundamentalist Muslims, fundamentalist Protestants, and conservative Catholics (not fundamentalists, but conservative.) Not something I look forward to, but American and European cafeteria and C& E Catholicism is declining while the conservative Church is on the rise, with many betting our next Pope will be a conservative African.
Eventually, the pendulum will swing back the other way but right now many people want a faith that spells things out for them.


(And by the way, if you were really sorry about offending, you would have removed the offending words, wouldn't you?)

[SOteric]

23. I don't like the American government much right now

and what is apparently close to half the voting body of America's citizenry. I disagree strongly with their opinions and feel they're misguided in the extreme. But I haven't left this country nor have I stopped calling myself an American. I feel this country has never more needed the clear voice of an intelligent liberal than they do at this time.

I don't much care for my uncle Primo, the family patriarch. He behaves like a pervert at most family gatherings and has opinions straight out of the middle ages. I haven't disowned my family and changed my name, however. The SOteric clan, too, has a need for the strong, clear, intelligent voices of my immediate family to balance out the atavism that is our Uncle Primo.

It is no different being a Roman Catholic. There is much in Rome's official position and our Holy Father's words with which I do not agree. The have never more needed the strong clear voices of an intelligent, liberal church body to influence the young than they do at this time.

All that notwithstanding, the Pope holds a position I greatly respect, and I acknowledge (unlike George Bush) that not all of his contributions have been a detriment; some have actually brought the church forward. Great moments of enlightenment have been displayed by this man. I will not fault him or revile him for the moments which in my opinion fall short. Fault and Judgement is God's business and His Holiness will get there soon enough.

He is not the embodiment of perfection. He is not the Messiah. He is the Pope, and I am a Catholic.

You're not required to like him, to comment on him or to revere him in any way.

I would hope that as someone studying to minister the works of God on earth you would be able to display some understanding of the respect others show him, perhaps even exercise some compassion and forgiveness to those of us who can respect this man when you cannot. Of course, I don't expect it or even demand it. I just think it would be nice, and your stated vocation would tend to indicate it as a good choice for you.

[DemBones DemBones]

49. EXCELLENT POST!!! So well said. I especially like the

last part:

"He is not the embodiment of perfection. He is not the Messiah. He is the Pope, and I am a Catholic."

"You're not required to like him, to comment on him or to revere him in any way."

"I would hope that as someone studying to minister the works of God on earth you would be able to display some understanding of the respect others show him, perhaps even exercise some compassion and forgiveness to those of us who can respect this man when you cannot. Of course, I don't expect it or even demand it. I just think it would be nice, and your stated vocation would tend to indicate it as a good choice for you."


I agree completely, and I am a Catholic.

"I am a Catholic" are words that mean a great deal to a great many people, though others don't get it, though others look down on us. It is a privilege to be able to say them and to be able to receive the sacraments.

[Dhalgren]

55. I wonder how long homosexuals will be able to say this:

"It is a privilege to be able to say them and to be able to receive the sacraments." This may be a "privilege" that won't be available for long. This brings up a good question regarding current practice - are there any restrictions, currently, on homosexuals receiving the sacraments? (I mean beside the obvious one they are not "privileged" to receive).

[DemBones DemBones]

63. Homosexuals receive the sacraments all the time.

The only one they don't receive is the Sacrament of Marriage (unless they marry someone of the opposit sex), but many of them receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders (become priests) instead.

As a woman, I don't have the privilege to receive Holy Orders, but that doesn't bother me. There are many other ways for me to serve God in the Catholic Church. Women clergy are not fully accepted in the rest of Christianity, either, but are still a sort of novelty act. As long as you hear people say, "We have a woman minister now," women aren't fully accepted, IMO.

[Dhalgren]

68. Ok. Thanks for the information.

I've always considered the "woman as second-class citizen" attitude of most Christian denominations to be a hold over from old social mores and not something in any way pertaining to actual "Christianity". I think the same can be said for most denominations' stances on homosexuality.

[Thtwudbeme]

79. However, face it; the Sacrament of Marriage

is the most important one in the long run.

Furthermore, my marriage to Michael is diminished because my homosexual friends cannot enjoy the same priviledges we do--it's sad--and you seem to think that is OK.

I don't.

[DemBones DemBones]

80. No, the Eucharist is by far the most important one. nt

[JanMichael]

82. To you, maybe

not to others.

[DemBones DemBones]

95. I was speaking as a Catholic. nt

[Thtwudbeme]

96. I was speaking as a human being excercising my free will to think

critically.

Here is the main problems I have with your answers to questions posed; I have yet to see you or any other Catholic apologist post what you THINK. You only post the church doctrines--if you believe these doctrines to be absolute true, right, good and what Christ would approve of, that's fine. However, I would like to see the personal critical thought processes behind your beliefs.

If you genuinely believe in a Christian God, then can I assume that you also believe that after we die, we will all be equal? If you believe that, then how can you support what then would be a false, man-made hierarchy of the Churches in this life? Particularly when those man-made premises have caused so much anguish for so many people?

That is what I want to know; I want someone to explain to me how they can knowingly and willingly say that the Catholic doctrines are OK with them.

You have indicated that you are a woman; that in itself is interesting to me considering that Jesus appeared to have held women in high regard, and it was only through the church beginning with Paul that we were placed in a subordinate position. However, I kind of wish (sorry, but I do for sake of conversation) that you were gay--which would bring this conversation to a new level. Padraig and his partner have indicated that they are not even remotely interested in publically proclaiming their beliefs...which is fine. But, you seem to be interested in discussing this.

Again, I will reiterate that I hope the mods don't read our comments as personal attacks on each other---we are discussing a touchy subject, and I hope that they will recognize that things could get a bit heated...but, that you and are are not going to take this to a "scary level!" (no mean PM's...etc)

Stephanie

[JVS]

84. Pfeh, baptism is more vital!

[DemBones DemBones]

93. Baptism is essential but

like millions of people (Catholics and mainstream Protestants), I was baptized soon after birth and so don't recall the sacrament at all.

To Catholics, the Eucharist is extremely important, central to the faith, and received many times. But baptism must occur first, so you make a good point about it. A case can be made for the importance of each of the seven sacraments. My point was that no one needs the sacrament of marriage for salvation and obviously many people don't marry. I was replying to a post that, as I recall, said something about marriage being more important than holy orders, which it's not.

[JVS]

85. You consider marriage a sacrament?

I don't. Marriage has now salvific effect, thus it is not a sacrament

[Thtwudbeme]

86. Heh...the Vatican does. I was responding to Dembones

Protestants recognize baptism and the eucharist- (NT stuff)

[DemBones DemBones]

94. Marriage is one of the seven sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. nt

[trotsky]

67. Wait a minute...

Didn't you just criticize Stephanie with the words:

I disagree with all of your comments because they are all in the spirit of "I am so superior to all those idiots."

What, then, should we make of this:

"I am a Catholic" are words that mean a great deal to a great many people, though others don't get it, though others look down on us. It is a privilege to be able to say them and to be able to receive the sacraments.

[arwalden]

69. You Noticed That, Too -- Eh?

:shrug:

[DemBones DemBones]

81. To us, it's a privilege to be Catholic, but a privilege open to everyone,

and there's no looking down on others involved.

[JanMichael]

83. Yes there is. Gays aren't allowed to be married, birth control can't

be used.

Those are tools used by the Catholic Church to control and divide the people.

Tell me...can you think of ONE good reason why Gays shouldn't be allowed to marry?

Can you think of one reason why people shouldn't be encouraged to use condoms?

Do you really believe that God wants you to allow others to make those kind of decisions for you?

[trotsky]

88. Consider what your reaction would be to the following:

"I am a freethinker" are words that mean a great deal to a great many people, though others don't get it, though others look down on us. It is a privilege to be able to say them and to be able to recognize religion for the farce that it is.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you would take offense to that. So what if I brushed off your concerns with a flippant:

To us, it's a privilege to be a freethinker, but a privilege open to everyone, and there's no looking down on others involved.

Would you find that acceptable? Truthfully?

[arwalden]

91. So, You Mean If I'm Worthy Enough... Or Wise Enough...

... I too can be fortunate enough to be just like you? You almost make it sound like you're in an in an exclusive sorority for the-Debbies. What a privilege!

[MissMarple]

22. Well.... that didn't take long.

:-) They moved us.

And it took me a while to find out where. Interesting place.

[kwassa]

24. Religion doesn't make people act stupid, they were stupid already and

misunderstood or misused basic religious concepts.

Everyone would like to know the absolute truth, so we all argue about what it might be.

The less intelligent are a little too sure that they know.

[MissMarple]

25. I quite agree. Except, the "less intelligent" part I'm not so sure of.

Intelligence doesn't seem to be a clear marker for religious sanity. And, as I said above, I really do believe some people use it for control. And, they often deceive themselves with their self termed piety.

[kwassa]

26. True, and there are smart people who are also ..... insane.

They seemed to be attracted to power, regardless whether it is religious or political.

[Tux]

33. Instead of intelligence

Let's use fear of uncertainity. They are scared that the universe may be meaningless. They're scared that god may not exist. They are scared the afterlife might not be real. If they can find simple answers, prove is in faith, they will run with it to the extremes. Fundies hate everyone but I did check out some stuff Jesus said in a Bible at a UU church. He taught peace and love yet why all the hate? Fear, Fear that diversity may mean they could be wrong.

[kwassa]

35. Fear of uncertainty, fear of ambiguity, paradox, dualism, contradiction

You are right. I think fundamentalism is appealing for those who can't tolerate uncertainty in their lives, who need an absolute answer to the unknowns, who are so fear-based that they need to divide the world into a simple black-white dichotomy. Anything else would be too scary, and lead one into the swamp of moral relativism. This leads to the judgemental viewpoint of the Old Testament, and the image of the punishing and vengeful God.

It really is a limited mental capacity to see the world in this way.

And I don't think fundamentalists hate everyone, they certainly love themselves.

[arwalden]

27. This Is My Favorite Thread Today.

[MissMarple]

28. And to think they banned it from the Lounge.

Go figure. I think they are a bunch of weenies. :-)

[JVS]

29. What church are you studying to be a minister for?

You can PM me if you don't wish to share here, or you can just not tell me at all

[DerekG]

30. You're training to be a minister?

"Fundies: there is NO proof that Jesus existed."

So did you get "the call" from a mere phantasm?


"Catholics: the Pope is not my church leader, and does NOT have a direct cell phone to God. Sorry he's dying, dears, but expect to take some heat over his policies."

For future reference, you might want to leave out such confrontational terms as "dears"--I've been a rather staunch critic of Pope John Paul II myself (in regards to his attack on liberation theology in Latin America, as well as his stance on birth control and how it relates to the AIDS epidemic in Africa), but there are more conciliatory ways to make known such (valid) qualms.


"Anti-abortion folks: if you don't like them, don't have them. Get out of everyone else's life."

A bit cavalier, no? Every theologian and spiritual leader whose works I've devoured--whether they were pro-life or pro-choice--did not so easily dismiss this moral quandary.

[MissMarple]

31. I think she's having a bad day.

It happens. :-)

We just don't want a "crisis of faith", that's worse.

[Thtwudbeme]

34. Derek: sorry for the snippy thread, I did have a bad day

As far as my comment about Jesus: there is zero archeological proof that the man existed. Did I get the "call" from a phatasm? That's putting it into different words than I would use, but yes...kind of. Anyone that slogs through years of studying the same subjects that I am (I am in the middle of seven years) will tell you that it all boils down to what we call "Faith." Do I believe in God and Jesus? Yes. Do I understand why my husband doesn't? Yep, I sure do.

My "Cavalier answer" about abortion: I stand by that one-don't care if it's cavalier or not. Stay out of other people's medical decisions; there is no definitive answer on whether or not the fetus has a "soul" or not--we have no clue as to when "life" begins, or even how to really define it. To say, "this is what I believe" is fine...right up to the point where public policy is based on that. I personally have your "moral quandries" on this subject...however, I do NOT inflict my thoughts onto others--and the people that do deserve the wet noodle treatment.

The Catholic Church burns me up--the emotional and physical damage that they have directly caused give any reasonable person room to pause. There is nothing they can do to counteract the pain they have inflicted on so many, for so long, over such a vast expanse.

Have I cleared that up some?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DerekG]

37. Thanks

Your words are considerably more tempered; I can certainly empathize with your animosity towards the Church.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

40. Well, Aside From That, DemBones DemBones ...

How do you feel about what Thtwudbeme had to say? Any comments on the subject of the thread itself?

-- Allen

[DemBones DemBones]

46. Since my first post was deleted, I imagine anything else I say will be,

too.

[arwalden]

52. Not Necessarily.

That's why I asked if you had any comments about her POST instead of HER.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

59. I Disagree With You Dembones...

... while I can understand your frustration, I don't think that what you're saying is true or fair. You're accusing the moderators of having a bias.

[DemBones DemBones]

61. No surprise there, Allen. nt

[arwalden]

62. Uh... O-o-oka-a-ay?

Whatever. :shrug:

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

66. Dembones: That Is Untrue...

And you know it. :eyes:

I oppose the bigotry coming out of the RCC and the anti-gay bigotry and hatred coming from the pope himself... and I say so.

How exactly does that make me anti-Catholic?? How does that make you a victim?

There are no rules against criticizing the RCC or Catholicism, or any religious institution... but there are rules against name-calling and personal attacks.

edit: additional text, clarity.

[DemBones DemBones]

71. We disagree. The Pope has never displayed anti-gay hatred

though he has criticized immoral sexual behavior by heterosexuals and homosexuals. He has always said that homosexuals are just as much children of God, to be respected and treated equally. He won't allow same-sex marriage and you may see that as bigotry but it's not. He won't allow women to become priests and that's not bigotry, either.

[AZCat]

72. He ties same-sex marriage to an "ideology of evil"

From a CNN article on this:
In one section about the role of lawmakers, the Pope takes another swipe at gay marriages when he refers to "pressures" on the European Parliament to allow them.

"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man," he writes.
</snip>

Wikipedia provides us with this definition of bigotry:

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own.

Bigot is often used as pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to their prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged, often engaging these prejudices in a rude and intolerant manner. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology, like racism, religion, and nationalism.

Bigotry is not "intolerance," but "unreasonable intolerance". Jews are understandably intolerant of Nazi Anti-Semitism; that doesn't necessarily make them anti-Nazi bigots.

A bigot will continue to hold these opinions even when confronted with evidence that challenges such stereotypes. To protect his views, he may either dismiss the challenges he encounters as an aberration to the norm and ignore the fact that they threaten to undercut his prejudices. On a more extreme level, he may deny the evidence altogether. Both reactions can be classified as forms of cognitive dissonance.

See also: zealot, partisan, hate group
</snip>


:shrug:

[arwalden]

73. Someone Should Probably Tell You... THAT'S BIGOTRY!!

Did you even bother to read what you wrote? Can you see all the contradictions? (Actually, I wonder how can anyone *not* see them.)

The gist of your post is like this: "Even though his actions would lead any rational person to think it... the pope has never actually *said* outright he hates gays. Homosexuals deserve our respect... but they are immoral and EVIL. Treat them equally... except when it comes to marriage because they are EVIL. But that's not bigotry because it comes from love. God told me to hate you... but it's not really hate, it's love."

>> He won't allow women to become priests and that's not bigotry, either. <<

Really? What word do you use? "Misogyny" is a word that comes to my mind... what word comes to yours?

[arwalden]

74. You Never Answered My Question...

... how does speaking out against the policies of the RCC and the Pope make someone "anti-Catholic"?

That's the same logic someone uses against people who speak out against the President... "Hey... don't criticize Bush... you're anti-American!!"

edit: missing word/clarity

[Thtwudbeme]

78. Sexual behavior between consenting adults is like abortion

it's none of your business, and it is NOT the Pope's place to decide that two partners of the same sex are having "immoral" relations or not. The Pope also does NOT treat and respect homosexuals equally or fairly; if he did, the Catholic church would be performing wedding ceremonies for this very large segment of their population. Please do not try to pretend otherwise.

Not allowing women to become Priests is fine; I just don't want to be a member of that club--apparently you do.

[Dookus]

75. actually

I've seen lots of Catholics here defend their positions without ever getting a post deleted.

So are the mods biased against catholicism in general, or you in particular?

[Dookus]

42. she's not here as YOUR minister

I don't think her desired profession outside of DU needs to dictate how she responds to people here.

[DemBones DemBones]

45. Looking at all the deleted post, including

mine from yesterday, it seems we are not allowed to criticize Stephanie's post.

[arwalden]

51. Well... I Read Your First Version Of This Post (#45)

and I see that you've now edited it. And judging from the differences in the two posts, it appears that you already know exactly what's not allowed. (Or, if you genuinely don't understand, then it's just a coincidence that you've edited your other post to remove the comments that criticize the messenger on a personal level instead of addressing the message itself.)

-- Allen

[Thtwudbeme]

53. In all fairness, Allen

I was interested in reading, and did read, Dembone's post. I wish they hadn't been deleted. Any discussion on religious beliefs starts out with people's visceral responses usually to the myths they have been exposed to as "the truth" for their entire lives...it's only when we break through those, that we have an honest conversation.

I see this reaction on a daily basis, both in school and my personal life. I have a good friend who is a true fundie, (yep..and Bush lover) who was horrified that his church had invited Bishop John Shelby Spong (my hero, btw) to speak...and that, God help him, the man drew sellout crowds for three days. My friend, we'll call him Jeff ( ;) Hi Jeff!) was telling me, "I HATE him, he says Jesus may not have been the Son of God!" I talked to him about the non-evidence...the lack of knowledge of who the authors of the gospels even were...the attention paid to Jesus by both Josephus and Tacitus....he was horrified. Jeff's final upshot on the whole deal? Bishop Spong is a heretic, and I should get married and keep my mouth shut.

I grew up with an Uncle who met his husband in the fifties....I was born in 1964, and loved my Uncle and Aunt Dick (both their names were Richard, and no, I am not kidding). They visited us in NC from California...both of them were welcome in our home, and were treated with respect by my parents. My father's upshot on this? They were roommates, gays are horrible, and should not be allowed to marry. Where did THAT come from???? It makes NO sense to me, but I am struggling to understand that emotional holding on to the myths that we all have-

So, from that point of view, I wish the mods would let personal attacks on me on this thread stand, so that they can be addressed. That is the only absolute true communication that people can have...besides, it doesn't bother me. I am going to have to look at my father straight in the eye within 10 years and tell him that I AM performing a non-hetero marriage....and believe me, nothing a DUer can post is going to equal the entertainment of that day!

Stephanie

[arwalden]

54. You Make An Excellent Point, Stephanie. -- By Defending Yourself...

... against the personal attacks directly, you're able to more clearly explain your position and address their "concerns".

It's been my experience that when someone or some group resorts to continual personal attacks (as opposed to a slip-up in a heated argument) they are less interested in actual discussion and more interested in scoring flame-war points.

-- Allen

[Thtwudbeme]

87. After reading posts here

I thought you might be interested in this...which will be mocked by a certain poster who won't really respond to me: I think you might be posting back and forth with one of the ninth circle Opus Dei.

Just a hunch.

[Dookus]

57. that's silly

of course you're allowed to criticize her post. It's personal attacks that are against the rules. Surely you knew that.

[Thtwudbeme]

58. I don't think he wants to

I invited him to criticize the post twice; he has not responded to me.

I wish the mods of this forum would let Dembones personal attacks against me stand on this thread--I didn't think they were that bad; and furthermore, s/he was being honest-

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FM Arouet666]

44. I must admit I was surprised

You believe in God, yet question not only the divinity of Jesus but his existence, you question the religious stance on abortion, you question the religious authority of the Pope!

I must say I agree, except that I do not believe in god, the supernatural, the tooth fairy, or the easter bunny. Apologies to any myth I have left out. I do believe in the power of science to understand the natural world and provide a means for humankind to advance.

Peace. :evilgrin:

[Roland99]

70. To respond to each point

WHY does religion make people act so damned stupid???

Passion and the need to fit in and have the self accepted by others allows the self to accept the self. Having that crutch to fall back upon in times of need or doubt helps the self to cope.


Fundies: there is NO proof that Jesus existed.

Uh, there is PLENTY of evidence that Jesus existed. There is even evidence of a full bloodline of Jesus to today. What there isn't, though, is evidence that Jesus was son of God, born to a virgin. That's all poppycock created by the early founders of the Church of Rome.


Catholics: the Pope is not my church leader, and does NOT have a direct cell phone to God. Sorry he's dying, dears, but expect to take some heat over his policies.

Ayup. The early Church of Rome decided upon an Apostolic order instead of an hereditary order of leader.



Skeptics: Cool, you don't believe. Groovy. I don't care.

It seems you do, though. Why else post here? :)



Anti-abortion folks: if you don't like them, don't have them. Get out of everyone else's life.

While I don't think abortion should be banned, I do find it a very selfish and heinous act, unless the woman's life is in danger or if child-birth would be fatal to the mother or the child.

[Thtwudbeme]

76. When you say that there is plenty of proof that Jesus existed

can you please include a link, or name your source?

As far as your comments about abortion, I understand that you have personal feelings about the subject; I am glad you don't want public policy based on an emotional personal opinion though.

Thanks in advance for the links; I am not familiar with any of that particular information.

Stephanie

[Roland99]

92. Here are some books to read...

Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed
- Laurence Gardner,Foreword by Prince Michael of Albany
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?EAN=9780760707357&x=53162802

(This is the one I'm reading now. I've been an atheist for several years but I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic grade school and high school. This book has definitely challenged a lot of ideas I had about Jesus and, at first, I took this book as rather aggressive and judgmental. However, since I'm now more than 1/2 way thru it, I've come to accept his research and explanations based upon his extensive bibliography. It really makes a lot of sense, once you get past the details in the first few chapters, esp. re:the multiple names by which people were known - real names, symbolic names, religious names, etc. all referring to the same person)


Genesis of the Grail Kings - Laurence Gardner
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?EAN=9780760761977&x=53162802

Realm of the Ring Lords: The Myth and Magic of the Grail Quest - Laurence Gardner
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=dK8FQf1Bep&isbn=1931412146&itm=7

Holy Blood, Holy Grail - Michael Baigent, Henry Lincoln, Richard Leigh
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=dK8FQf1Bep&isbn=0385338457&itm=3
(One of the books upon which The DaVinci Code was based)

Gnostic Gospels - Elaine Pagels
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?EAN=9780679724537&x=53162802

From Jesus to Christianity: How Four Generations of Visionaries and Storytellers Created the New Testament and Christian Faith - L. Michael White
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?EAN=9780060526559&x=57162802

The Woman with the Alabaster Jar: Mary Magdalen and the Holy Grail - Margaret Starbird, Foreword by Terrance A. Sweeney
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?userid=dK8FQf1Bep&pwb=1&ean=9781879181038

The Cult of the Black Virgin - Ean C. M. Begg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140195106/qid=1109777284/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-3828405-5209521?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Thtwudbeme]

97. Thank you for those links

I have read in depth the Pagels book (it is used as a text book at UNC-Chapel Hill)--and will take a look at the other links you provided next week.

Stephanie

[Roland99]

98. You could also get the DVD - The DaVinci Code Decoded

it's available from http://www.disinfo.com or from http://www.deepdiscountdvd.com. It's a DVD of interviews of the authors of the books upon which Dan Brown based his research for The DaVinci Code.