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How are people's beliefs formed and how do they change?

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:11 PM
Original message
How are people's beliefs formed and how do they change?
All of us accept as "fact" assertions for which we individually have only limited evidence -- and in many cases, people are not completely aware of all the assumptions they make as they navigate through daily life

How we really form our own various "beliefs" -- about what is "real" and what is "illusory", about our political or economic systems, about proper ways to interact with others, about how we should spend our money or time or lives &c&c -- may be obscure

In my experience, it is very uncommon for people to change their "beliefs," even long after I have convinced myself that I have brilliantly out-argued them on all the key points. Looking around, I suspect my own experience is not unique in this respect.

The nineteenth and twentieth centuries produced a number of thinkers claiming that we are all dishonest about how our convictions actually arise: Nietzsche, for example, pointed out that many ideas most of us hold, we hold simply because we want to fit into the social groups around us; Marx produced an political-economic analysis that was concerned with how social groups protect their own interests and reproduce their group structures, by a process of self-justifying their own behaviors; Freud took the view that humans are driven by instinctual needs, which they have learned (through their own particular individual histories) to channel in certain ways and that our self-images are objectively inaccurate and mislead us.

How do people actually form their beliefs? What actually leads people to change their beliefs?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Formation of beliefs
starts very early on, and, I believe, comes from experience and from family and society. From early on, we have dreams, and some of these dreams can lead to certain beliefs. If your family is church going, they take you to church where you hear ideas from people you respect and take on.

I disagree that beliefs cannot change throughout life. Things can happen to shake your belief system to its very core. I was raised a Christian, and had taken on the belief system that if you believed in Jesus you would live eternally--His death and resurrection proved this. And then, at age 13, I read The Passover Plot--and realized that there was a possibility that the crucifixion and resurrection did not occur the way I had heard it happened. This set me upon a great reexamination of my entire belief system. At the end, I felt that the teachings of Jesus, and acting upon those teachings, was more important than saying you believed in him just so you would go to heaven. My first shattering of an ideal.

Starting at age 17, I had a series of visions and dreams where I was shown glimpses of what is real. These led me to my current path--one I hadn't even heard of when I started the journey. The visions and dreams keep coming, and I use the direct experience to know that That is something so vast, and yet so loving, that words cannot ever express It. This journey literally turned my life around; I left a secure and lucrative career for total uncertainty in the career/finances realm; I have met many very remarkable people, both in and out of the body, and continue to be surprised with what happens. The one thing I am certain of is that my belief ideals will continue to shatter, reform, and grow throughout my life.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Hey, ayeshahaqqiqa
Take a look right below and tell me who started this one. Are you going to call him out or is that going to be the job of the rude atheists?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. I guess you rude ones will have to
because I agree with him totally, and don't see it as being rude. Kindly note he doesn't say ALL atheists, just some, and even cites examples. If you disagree with him, by all means use the examples given and refute his claims.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-05-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. How dare you not come to our defense.
This is an OP about how people's beliefs are forumed and the person below launches into a screed about how atheists are fundamentalists. That has NOTHING to do with the OP (something which I believe you have bitched about in other threads) not to mention that the person is using this OP as a chance to attack atheists. But since what the poster is saying fits into your view of the world, you apparently don't have a problem with this specific threadjacking. At least I now know what you meant by your "I don't like when people go their own way on a thread" thread.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-05-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. "because I agree with him totally, and don't see it as being rude"


"Is there any point in posting at R/T any more?
It seems that recently whenever an article is posted here, it devolves into arguments and snide remarks and even name calling between believers and non-believers. I have come to R/T in the past to find out about things dealing with religion and theology and have found that the discussion that was hoped for never got off the ground because of comments made and reactions to the comments."

"Because they get away from the topic. The article on the nun who works with gangs is a perfect example. Instead of talking about the nun's work and talking about her views, it turned into the usual same old same old. This is only the latest example, but there are others. "

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I am curious whether you talk much to people who share or are sympathetic to
your spiritual views and whether such discussions affect what you believe
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. It is life experiences - not rational analysis (except perhaps for deism) that
It is life experiences - not rational analysis (except perhaps for deism) that determines ones faith.

How you view those life experiences obviously starts with your upbring and culture - but as an adult the topic is number one - unless you come to the conclusion that with no rational proof or disproof so searching is a waste of time and life forces you to be an agnostic and perhaps not care about the search - while of course still caring about the search.

Despite the loud denials from many atheist posters on DU, the evangelical proselytizing form of atheism practiced by Harris and Dawson has the attributes, in my opinion, of a fundie faith. The atheist discussions one gets at Unitarian Churches seems the conclusion of an honest search that has led to the faith called atheism - with no fundie attributes seen by me in all the years of my dropping by Unitarian Churches (I'm on the mailing list of a few UUs as some take ones address off of the checks in the offering - and those mailings push no specific belief).

Inertia seems to be able to both lead to staying in your parents faith, and to falling out of faith as you only have time for the new family or new life.

Faith/belief is intensely personal, so I suspect every person's path is at least a little different.

It would be interesting to study - but the usual questionnaire approach leads to the problem of question wording, interviewer bias, non-statistical number of interviews. I have not seen anything in the way of a study/report that I would trust enough to recommend the report to others. The phrase that has always come up when I asked the question was life experiences and my upbring and study.

Good luck in your quest to find an answer to the question in your post.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Damnit, here I go again.
Despite the loud denials from many atheist posters on DU, the evangelical proselytizing form of atheism practiced by Harris and Dawson has the attributes, in my opinion, of a fundie faith. The atheist discussions one gets at Unitarian Churches seems the conclusion of an honest search that has led to the faith called atheism - with no fundie attributes seen by me in all the years of my dropping by Unitarian Churches (I'm on the mailing list of a few UUs as some take ones address off of the checks in the offering - and those mailings push no specific belief).


I don't really see how that comment relates to anything in the OP, or has anything to do with the formation of or changing of beliefs. It appears to me to just be a swipe at atheists that wasn't really even invited, but perhaps I'm missing something.

Are Harris and Dawkins (not Dawson) evangelists because they talk about atheism? Is it because that they appear to be quite certain in their ideas, and are not shy about expressing them? If that's the case, then you could include a whole range of individuals into the evangelical category that really have nothing to do with religion or theology (for example, pro-gravity theorists).

Are they proselytizing because they want to win people over to their point of view? If that is their motivation, then I guess I would have to agree with you, but we're going to have to throw a whole 'nother bunch of people into the proselytizing category - anyone who argues anything, ever. All proselytizing is is hoping to win someone over to your own point of view, although the word is typically used with religious connotation.

So evangelism and proselytizing may technically be accurate when applied to atheists but only if you view atheism as a religion (which I'm assuming you do and, it probably goes without saying, I'm not a religious man) or if you're willing to admit several categories of different people fall under the labels as well (and are willing to refer to them as such).

Atheists can be dogmatic in the psychological sense, but speaking of fundamentalism is ridiculous on the face when it comes to atheism. I don't understand what, exactly, atheists can be fundamentalists about. On your line of reasoning, people can be fundamentalist non-dentists, fundamentalist non-astrologers, fundamentalist non-police officers, fundamentalist non...well you get the picture. Now people can be dogmatic, and can be so about a wide variety of different things - but that's not the same as fundamentalism (esp. not in this context, which is used, at least as I see it, to paint atheists with the "fundie brush").

Just my .02.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Very interesting analysis
My mother has gone to a Unitarian Church for years--her view of things is more pantheistic than atheistic, but I do know that all views are welcome there. Thanks for filling me in on some of them.

Of course life experiences shape one's beliefs--along with the interpretation of those experiences. I know some healers who deal with emotional healing and release, and have had personal experience with the technique. What is interesting is that after such a session, one can look back on life experiences and interpret them far differently than before. With me, personally, it has resulted in a more expansive view of life and That which is behind it.

And thanks for observing that some (by no means all) people who espouse atheism appear to be taking on attributes of fundamentalism. This age appears to be one of extremes, and fundamentalism of all kinds is a symptom of this, I think.

Faith/belief IS intensely personal--and I agree about everyone having a slightly different take on it.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. What attributes of fundamentalism do you think some atheists are taking on?
And do you think those attributes aren't also shared by, say, the Pope, or Martin Luther King?
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-05-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. You know papau,
Your obsessive vitriol for atheists normally irritates me, but for some reason this post cracks me up. Perhaps it's because your attempts to paint atheists as fundamentalists and atheism as a religion/faith are so desperate they're downright pathetic.

Thanks for the laughs. :rofl:
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. That's a good question.
Edited on Sat Mar-03-07 09:10 PM by varkam
All of us accept as "fact" assertions for which we individually have only limited evidence -- and in many cases, people are not completely aware of all the assumptions they make as they navigate through daily life


I agree. I'm of the belief that we actually can know extremely little, as knowledge assumes truth and, consequently, it is impossible to know something that is false. Do I "know" that my father is not actually an undercover CIA agent? Do I "know" that I'm not dreaming? Do I "know" that there is not a murderer directly behind me with a very large knife? No on all counts. I have very good reason to believe that none of these things are the case, and I operate (as you imply) on the assumption that these things are false. Those are rather silly examples, but the notion of knowledge and what we can and cannot know applies to pretty much everything that we do. It would be pretty much impossible for us to operate solely on knowledge and not to make certain assumptions about the world we live in and the people we deal with.

How we really form our own various "beliefs" -- about what is "real" and what is "illusory", about our political or economic systems, about proper ways to interact with others, about how we should spend our money or time or lives &c&c -- may be obscure


I think "may" is an understatement - hence it's a good question to ask.

In my experience, it is very uncommon for people to change their "beliefs," even long after I have convinced myself that I have brilliantly out-argued them on all the key points. Looking around, I suspect my own experience is not unique in this respect.


I suspect that there is a reason for this. I look at basic beliefs (or not so basic if you prefer, but the semantics are unimportant), such as religion or political affiliation. I tend to think that these foundational beliefs lay the groundwork for more beliefs to be accepted by an individual. Over the years, people build a chunk of their self-image on these beliefs. They begin to define themselves in such a respect. As such, if they were to relinquish any of the beliefs on which others are based, then their self-image might take a hit - even a pretty big one. So I think there's a vested interest in people hanging onto their beliefs, come hell or high water, lest their worldview is dramatically altered. I hope that makes sense.

The nineteenth and twentieth centuries produced a number of thinkers claiming that we are all dishonest about how our convictions actually arise: Nietzsche, for example, pointed out that many ideas most of us hold, we hold simply because we want to fit into the social groups around us; Marx produced an political-economic analysis that was concerned with how social groups protect their own interests and reproduce their group structures, by a process of self-justifying their own behaviors; Freud took the view that humans are driven by instinctual needs, which they have learned (through their own particular individual histories) to channel in certain ways and that our self-images are objectively inaccurate and mislead us.

How do people actually form their beliefs? What actually leads people to change their beliefs?


There are entire books about this very topic, and some of those books use words that are bigger than my patience threshold, so I will admit that I'm certainly not the most learned individual on this topic. But I'll be happy to supply my thoughts on the subject.

I tend to agree with evolutionists when it comes to how we originally form our beliefs. We believe what our parents tell us. It makes sense for a child to believe what their parents tell them, as typically parents only want to do right by their children and children have no reason to distrust their parents. That's a notion supported by evidence, as there is a strong correlation between things like religion and political party affiliation of children and that of the parents. That is by no means the rule, however, as the correlation is not perfect.

Those are the cases that interest me the most. The "apostates" for whatever traditional thought they were brought up with. What brings them to abandon their former beliefs? I've had experiences where I have renounced long-held beliefs, but usually not through any sort of argument. For me, the true change always came from within. For example, I used to be a Baptist. When I was younger I lost someone to suicide, and the problem of evil popped up in my head and, eventually, lead me to where I'm at today with my theological viewpoints. Now, plenty of religious people (even Baptists :) ) have experienced tremendous losses, and have undoubtedly questioned their own faith, but have not renounced it. One thing I often wonder is what separates me from them? What makes me different? That's the 64,000 dollar question, at least for me.

Lastly, there is a theory in psychology called cognitive dissonance that (1) has good empirical support and (2) can explain how we form and change our beliefs quite nicely. In a nutshell, it's a theory that states when we act in a way which is incongruent with our beliefs, we will experience mental discomfort (aka dissonance). The result of that dissonance is that we, more often than not, adjust our beliefs accordingly so that we do not experience such dissonance. It's a fairly broad theory that can encompass quite a lit, but it's something akin to what you touched on in your OP.

Hope I said something worthwhile :D
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. But my experience suggests that most people typically tolerate quite a lot
of cognitive dissonance in their ideas about the world
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Baby steps.
Cognitive dissonance usually doesn't produce major paradigm shifts, at least based upon what limited information that I have, and I'm sure it's a phenomenon that is much more complex than I currently understand it. I do think, however, that change with respect to beliefs is small and usually takes many sucsessive steps. Moreover, it's usually a process which we are not usually consciously aware of .
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. We are all a product of our environment
And as we experience new things our beliefs may change. People change otherwise we would not see many people losing their faith or converting to a different religion or becoming believers from being non-believers.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-05-07 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. I would say most people are lucky enough to be born into the one true religion
but then again, I am a smart ass.
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