What Happens When a Country Gives Up Religion: as Spain Shows, Nothing Much (HuffPost)

[marmar]

Martin Varsavsky


03.09.2007
What Happens When a Country Gives Up Religion: as Spain Shows, Nothing Much

During Franco´s dictatorship Spain was a very Catholic country. After three decades of democracy, as the Catholic Church likes to say, Spain is not a Catholic country anymore. Loss of religion first became apparent with the legalization of divorce, contraceptives, and the promotion of sex ed all opposed by the Church. This was followed by the decriminalization of abortion, the acceptance of drug possession for personal consumption (drug users are not criminals in Spain, but treated instead as medical patients) and a general acceptance of premarital sex in society.

Later more controversial activities were legalized like gambling in public places, prostitution and recently gay marriage. Presently other than euthanasia there´s nothing left for the Catholic Church to oppose. All battles were lost including the one for the hearts and minds of the Spanish people. While 95% of the Spanish youth declared in the 60's that religion played some role in their life now only a third do. And that is only "some" role.

Religion in Spain is mostly becoming tradition. People marry in churches because they are beautiful and full of history, not because they actually practice. Sunday church attendance is in the single digits. In this country, they still teach religion in most schools, but to most it is as if they were teaching Spanish history, the history of a country that used to be religious but it is not anymore. Paradoxically, the only religious group in Spain now are Muslim immigrants, whose views on society are similar to those of the Franco. Nudity for example was a big no no at that time and it continues to be so for Spanish Muslims. For others nudity is accepted. Spain´s leading newspapers and magazines frequently show nudity in a way that would not be acceptable in US publications. Nudist beaches and regular beaches are mostly mixed, and most people don´t mind.

In the meantime, Spain´s abandonment of religion has been accompanied by decades of tremendous economic and social development. Spain is now 10 times richer per capita than it was 3 decades ago. Cultural production is thriving and science which was mostly non existence after centuries of a tough ban on scientific research by the Catholic Church is now beginning to develop with the number of papers written and patents filed growing every year. During the last decade Spain has been the growth engine of the large countries in Europe. Indeed the economy grew so fast that Spain accepted 6% of its population in the form of immigrants in the last 5 years in order to cope with the labor shortages. ....(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-varsavsky/what-happens-when-a-count_b_43069.html

[stubtoe]

1. Imagine no religion ...

.

[Salviati]

10. I imagine that people would...

...still be people, pretty much just the same as they are now. Those that claim religion as their inspiration to do good works would find other things to inspire them. Those who let religion cloud their heart with hate would still be full of hatred, and those who let others sucker them into evil in the name of religion would still be suckered by other arguments.

[NAO]

14. What Would the World Look Like With No Religion (pic)

Picture a World Without Religion...

[Demeter]

2. If You Want Change, Have Them Give Up Patriarchy In All Forms

Substituting one form of patriarchy for another isn't going to make any difference outside of cosmetic.

[Double T]

3. Government and politics should be religion free with NO references.......

to any god; separation of church/religion and state is paramount to peace and the ability for different nations to come together. Church/religion should solely be a personal experience and event.

[genie_weenie]

4. Spain has quite the history of Anarchy, too.

Perhaps we could use a few less "leaders" deciding everything for the citizens of this land, as well..

[Leopolds Ghost]

5. I'm not impressed

Spain's history of religion, culture, etc. has been one of invasion,
ethnic cleansing, corruption, patriarchy, and violence.

It is only natural that they would associate the SPANISH Catholic Church (as opposed to the Salvadoran church or other Catholic church) with those things.

The Anarchists gave the Church the opportunity to side with them, and a few did, specifically in Basque country (the only part of Spain that still maintains any sort of revolutionary ideals) but most sided with Franco.

So the Anarchists became even more anti-religion than the Marxists were, which proved to gain them nothing in countries that have even a lick of religious freedom. Anabaptism, an early form of anarchism, is responsible for popularizing the concept of religious freedom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism

You don't gain adherents by advocating for the death of someone's culture, when they have one worth preserving. The specifics of Spain's culture, like those of Turkey, are a culture based on conquest, violence and forced assimilation into a false regional ethnicity, and hence, not.

Meanwhile, most of Spain's economy is feasting on the carcass of a long
dead empire. Furthermore, the improvements in Spain's economy trumpeted
by the bourgeois secularist liberals, are precisely those trumpeted by
the neocons, who successfully advocated for the liberalization of Spain's economy.

To learn why Spain is much richer than Morocco and much
poorer than the rest of Europe, read Jared Diamond.

There is nothing honorable in the long and explicitly "Godless" history of cannibalism, extinction and ethnic cleansing to which the human race is naturally inclined. It is a mistake to think that atheism will somehow reveal the underlying goodness of huiman beings, unless one is a complete bourgeois utilitarian who associates "goodness" with "positive economic indicators since the failure of the Spanish Revolution and the death of Franco."

Did I mention that many Spaniards are anti-catholic because they were forcibly converted Muslims and Jews? Entire villages converted to Judaism after Franco's death.

[Jonathan50]

6. I don't see your point.

Spain's history of religion, culture, etc. has been one of invasion,
ethnic cleansing, corruption, patriarchy, and violence.

And that makes it different from the United States how?

It is a mistake to think that atheism will somehow reveal the underlying goodness of huiman beings, unless one is a complete bourgeois utilitarian who associates "goodness" with "positive economic indicators since the failure of the Spanish Revolution and the death of Franco."

Are you trying to say that the Spanish are no more free now than during Franco's time?

[robinlynne]

8. He doesn't have much of a point.

[trotsky]

17. Oh, there's a point there.

It becomes clear if you've read more of his posts. Atheism is evil, religion is good, yada yada.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. Very good points

Especially liked your conclusion--and of course you are right about Jews and forced conversion.

[robinlynne]

7. sounds good to me.

[Gold Metal Flake]

9. To the greatest.

:toast:

[hedgehog]

11. On the other hand, maybe the Catholic Church would be better off if

it gave up Spain! I don't mean giving up on the Spanish people but on the notion that the Church can force people into belief and proper living. For years the oppression and lock step obedience in Spain has been held up as some kind of golden standard for other Catholics.

The Church did very well in Ireland under 400 years of active prosecution since the time of Henry VIII. After 75 years of living under a government that obeyed the dictates of the bishops, the Irish have abandoned the official Church. Ironically, they may be some of the best Christians around. They have a tradition of sending relief to people facing famine and there are many Irish young people working for NGOs. I've also heard they are very sympathetic to the recent immigrants to Ireland.

[MN ChimpH8R]

12. We have one tool in the box that always works

and it is reason. It is clear that Spanish society has embraced it with a vengeance. Faith never cured a disease, built a house or invented a piece of useful technology. Following the taboos that a small middle-eastern sect dreamed up more than 2000 years ago in the 21st century makes as much sense as practicing the same kind of medicine as said sect. Knowledge and reason have been the necessary predicates for every bit of human progress.

[NAO]

13. What happened when the Roman Empire became a Christian Nation?

After Rome became a "Christian Nation", the Empire collapsed, Western Civilization crumbled, and 1,000 years of Dark Ages happened, that's what.

For some reason, this is not often discussed in history classes.

Winter of the World – The Terrible Cost of "Christendom"
http://jesusneverexisted.com/winter.html

Putting the Dark into the Dark Age - A Brutal Superstition Spreads Across the World
http://jesusneverexisted.com/cruelty.html

[skepticscott]

16. Perhaps the point is

not that ditching religion necessarily makes your civilization stronger and better, but that this contradicts the notion that it inevitably leads to decay and collapse, as many religionists and social moralizers would have us believe. Once a society has gotten over the idea that some Big Daddy is going to look out for them and protect them from their enemies and their own folly, they may find that reliance on their own resources, hard work and ingenuity serves them much better, or they may still go into the crapper. But either way, they're standing on their own, like mature human beings should.

[zeemike]

18. Just wanted to point out

That the USSR and China gave up religion also.

[moobu2]

19. You could add that

Something like 95% of the German population in the 30’s was baptized and belonged to a christian church.

[zeemike]

20. And that they traded it for Paganism in 1933. n/t

[charlie]

21. If you want to call

disavowal by gunpoint "giving up", then yeah, they gave up religion. Spain's organic turn into a less religious society isn't comparable.

[Evoman]

22. *nods*

good point. You can't force people to give up religion, and making an official decision for a country does diddly squat for the religiosity of its people. People have to grow out of religion.