A Point of Clarification

[varkam]

Consider the following claim: Religion has always been, is, and will always be the single most destructive force on the planet. I don't have the words to adequately capture the level of suffering that has been visited upon us because of religion. Throughout history, people have warred, killed, and been executed because of religion. Religion has constantly been an obstacle in the path of scientific progress in every scientific discipline from physics to astronomy to medicine. It has stripped from us the ability value the paradise here and instead, we're hoping for a paradise in the eternal tomorrow. It has stripped from us the ability to think independently, to form our own opinions about the cosmos, to make our own moral decisions - the very things that make us human. No longer do we have to wonder about how the universe began, no longer to do look up into the night sky and wonder, no longer do we have to form our own opinions about what constitutes person-hood - there's a book that tells us. It has all the answers. Think of all the resources that have been devoted over the ages (and today!) to building grand cathedrals, to paying for elaborate church ceremonies to appease an absentee father figure, think of all the money that has been diverted away from things like research and aid programs and then tell me that religion is not destructive. We can't have federal funding for stem cell research, because the president's religion tells him it's wrong (mind you, not because he thinks it is, he is told that it is). We can't have condom distribution or competent sex education programs because of religion. We don't even have dominion over our own bodies because our bodies are not ours - they are god's. Untold billions have died because of it, and billions more are yet to die because of it - over stories. Over literature. Over fairy tales. Over religion.

Now I'm sure with the previous paragraph, I may of lost about 60-70% of my readers. I made absolutely no bones regarding how I feel about religion. I think we would've been miles ahead of where we are now if we did away with it long ago, and I think we'd be better off tomorrow if we let it all go today.

Now, consider the following claim: Spirituality is, has always been, and will always be among the most beneficial forces on the planet. Spirituality is not religion, and visa versa. There is no one book of spirituality. There is no one way. In a world with a plurality of faiths and ideas, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people are very very wrong. It's also pretty obvious that most people think it's the other guy that's wrong, and they're plenty willing to kill to prove it.

Religion has a component of spirituality, but religious leaders the world over (and through history) have pumped a different idea - the idea that religion is spirituality. The idea that god cannot be found anywhere else but the church. But the bible. But the quran. But the talmud. Religion is spirituality + dogma, which, as history has painfully shown time and time again leads to the utmost of disastrous consequences for us.

Spirituality, however, is very very different from religion. It's a perspective. It's a meaning of life. It's a god. It is it's own reason to do good. It's something to cultivate, rather than to subscribe to. More importantly, it recognizes in each of us the essential things that make us human. We make our own choices, we think our own thoughts, we dream of our own gods and demons, rather than believe in what other people's were.

Consider my last claim: Religion is essentially unimportant to people - spirituality is not. I think, when it comes down to it, I don't anger people when I go on anti-theist rants because I'm attacking religion. People think I'm attacking spirituality. I don't have a right to do that, because I don't know if I'm any more right than the next person. Spirituality is something desperately important to the vast majority of us, I think, and I don't ever intend to impugn another's spirituality. People put a lot of work and thought into it, as I have my own, and it's not my place to tear that down. People get offended when they perceive that it's being attacked - I know I get that way when people try to tear mine down.

We all want spirituality. We all want meaning and a reason to live. Religion does give us that, but it comes with ten tons of toxic baggage. It's the lazy and the easy way of being spiritual. With something as important as this life, do you really want to half-ass it? If you really want to get all your knowledge and spirituality from a single book, or from a single person, or from a single building, or from a single idea, then I obviously can't stop you. I just hope you know what you're missing.

And for what it's worth, this is not an indictment of Christians or Muslims or Jews. This is an indictment of primarily JudaeoCrisLam.

[southerncrone]

1. Agree 100%.

[zeemike]

2. Religion is to spirituality as fascism is to Economics

Spirituality and Economics are real and function in our world where as Religion of all kinds and Fascism, socialism, communism and capitalism all interpret it in there own way and use it for there own reasons.

I agree with the OP

[cosmik debris]

3. I have to disagree

"We all want spirituality."

In the first place I'm not at all sure what spirituality means, but I don't have any desire to make that a part of my life. I find my life to be quite whole and comfortable without whatever you mean by spirituality. If there is a hole in my life because of the absence of spirituality, I am unaware of it.

[Evoman]

4. Amen.

I don't know what the fuck spirituality is, and at this point, I don't even care. I mean, I love nature, and I love space, and I like my self-constructed purpose of life, but I still don't get what this spirituality stuff is about. I just think people like to feel like they are enlightened or "spiritual" because it makes them sound deep and important. Bah, I say....I'm deeper and more enlightened than any motherf#$%er in this forum...*grin*

[cosmik debris]

6. This looks like a variation of the argument that there is

"Hole in your heart that only God can fill". It just uses a more slippery word than god. I believe that both the hole and the spirituality are made up stuff. And I prefer to steer clear of other people's made up stuff.

[varkam]

10. Oh please.

You know me better than that.

[cosmik debris]

13. Sorry,

I got carried away by my incessant urge to be snarky.

[varkam]

16. That's just because

you have a hole in you that only god can fill :D

[varkam]

8. I'm not selling anything.

Look, I'm a strong atheist when it comes to the JCI convention of god, a weak atheist when it comes to others, and an agnostic when it comes to all of them. I'm also a naturalist - I don't think there's any such thing as ghosts or spirits or souls or an afterlife. Spirituality, at least to me, means appreciating the qualitative nature of existence. But that's just what it means to me and it doesn't necessarily mean that to anyone else.

I think that there are certain words that engender an automatic revulsion among atheists and skeptics. For example, woo-woos have been known to toss around words like "energy", so whenever I see that I have an automatic reaction to it. I think the same has occurred with spirituality when it comes to non-theists. I don't think spirituality consists of a different way of knowing; indeed, I think it is only tangentially related to "the truth", whatever the hell that is.

I can't tell you what spirituality means. You're the only one who can answer that question for yourself. That's the point.

[cosmik debris]

15. "appreciating the qualitative nature of existence"

In another thread I brought up the interplay between mathematics and genetics. In a recent Evoman thread about us, his pictures of our universe showed the intersection of art and science. That is how I appreciate the qualitative nature of existence--by finding understanding, not by finding mystery.

And if the word "energy" sets you off, I can only imagine what the word "quantum" does to you! :)



Another example of art intersecting with science.

This is a geologic map of the Eastern part of the Grand canyon. I have a 3 foot by 4 foot copy on my office wall. You may call this spiritual, but I just call it art.

[varkam]

17. Ditto.

Like I mentioned, I don't subscribe to any sort of metaphysical or supernatural ideas. I think there's a lot more to be awe inspired about right here, as opposed to dreaming of gods and demons and spirits. But that's just me.

[skepticscott]

5. Wee disagreement

I would concur that for most of history, there has been no greater oppressor of the human mind, body and spirit than religion. But I would argue that Communism (and to a lesser extent fascism) took over the title for the better part of the 20th century. Fortunately the evil C seems to be well past its prime, though not quite dead yet, while religion is still going strong, despite waning in some areas, most notably Western Europe.

The problem with trying to wrestle with spirituality is that it's a Rorschach word...it means something different to everyone, so trying to define someone else's sense of it is dicey at best, especially when some people don't even have a good grip on their own. But it's something that does not seem to manifest itself in the absolutism and lets-shove-our-version-down-everyone-else's-throatism that organized religion is terminally afflicted with.

It's a very good post and deserves a more intelligent response, but this is the best I can do at 5:30 AM with only one cup of coffee in me :donut:

[varkam]

9. That's the point.

The problem with trying to wrestle with spirituality is that it's a Rorschach word...it means something different to everyone, so trying to define someone else's sense of it is dicey at best, especially when some people don't even have a good grip on their own. But it's something that does not seem to manifest itself in the absolutism and lets-shove-our-version-down-everyone-else's-throatism that organized religion is terminally afflicted with.

Precisely, I think that's the advantage that it holds over religion. Spirituality = religion - dogma (among other things). Like I said in the OP, religion is the lazy man's spirituality. I can only talk about spirituality insofar as I have developed my own. It's a lot harder to kill over differing perspectives than it is to kill over differing dogmatic traditions.

In short, it is a Rorschach word but I don't see that as being a problem at all.

[catbert836]

18. It's like Nietzsche said

the type of devotion formerly reserved to religion would be applied to nationalist causes. It seems that these have been directly or indirectly responsible for the greatest tragedies of the past century, once again usurping the traditional role of religion.

Also, I have a problem with your labeling. Communism in general has not been the biggest killer of the past century. Stalinism, a particular strain of communism, was. And you're certainly right in stating that Stalinism seems to be past its prime, as it is dead in all countries except for North Korea.

[skepticscott]

19. Not quite what I said

I did not call communism the "biggest killer" of the past century (although it may very well have been). My point was more that communism was the most egregious impeder of human progress in all of its aspects during that time, after religion had been for quite a few centuries before. And since you've acknowledged that Stalinism IS communism, your own point is unclear to me, unless you're arguing that communism is not an inherently bad idea on a national scale, but that it's simply been badly executed (every single time a country has tried it). Unfortunately, the notion that there can be a "good" communism in practice is another idea that's past its prime.

Communism, fascism and fundamentalist religion are all of a piece though, in the sense that they require blind, unquestioning obedience to dogma and central authority, whether it be political or religious.

[cain_7777]

7. Religion is the bane of humanity

I've been saying this shit for years and its always nice to hear it from someone else. If religion had not snuffed out the spark of the fledgling greek sciences during the dark ages we could quite possibly be colonizing the cosmos by now, but alas, here we are today flinging our religious poop and still denying that we're naked apes.

[varkam]

11. Here's another post you might find

both informative and enjoyable - so enjoy.

[cain_7777]

14. Thanks

I sent the study to my two sisters who are becoming ever more religious. Relgiosity and education is another great one along the same lines as religiosity and societal health, but theists will never open their eyes to read such data let alone have the education to understand it. Thank you again

[NMMNG]

12. Well said

As a very spiritual, but not at all religious, person I wholeheartedly agree.