What's good about Buddhism?

[Boojatta]

What are the canonical texts of Buddhism? What are some excerpts that exhibit truth and moral value in it?

We can of course make a distinction between Buddhism and Buddhists. Are Buddhists moral guides or should we focus primarily (or exclusively) on the written texts?

According to the New York Times of Sunday, February 25, 2007:

"A Buddhist monk assassinated Sri Lanka's first Prime Minister in 1959."

"Norway has tried to broker peace talks between the government and guerrillas. Buddhist monks burn Norway's flag in street protests and occasional burn effigies of Norway's peace envoy to Sri Lanka."

(The above might not be completely exact quotes, but they also aren't my words, so I have put them in quotes and provided the source.)

Which ethnic groups are entitled to self-determination? Would it be bad for there to be more Tamil autonomy within a Sri Lankan federal system?

It occurs to me that it really wouldn't be very difficult to create good PR about a given religion among people who are unable to give even a basic outline of the religion's history and the religion's doctrines.

[aquart]

1. George will return as a cockroach.

And we can step on him.

[texastoast]

2. There's a lot of stuff in the canons

Buddhism is not a "religion." It is a way. A path. As with all philosopies, you get some bad eggs. All ethnic groups should be able to have their own self-determination in a perfect world, but now that we are so very over-populated, ethnicity can get in the way of some other people's views. I don't know enough about the Tamil issue to reply. I hope to learn some here at DU. What do you think about it?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/btg/index.htm

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. Hell, the Buddhists of different temples in Kyoto, Japan used to burn each other's temples down

Any religion or non-religion has violent, stupid parts; and peaceful, wonderful parts.

There is much in Buddhism that allows for class systems, as well - such as in Japan, Korea, China, India..."It is your fate to be poor", "It is your fate to die at the point of my sword", "It is your fate to be conscripted to fight a war for me against those other Buddhists", "It is our fate to starve to death while I eat well", and so on.

[Boojatta]

5. Tell me about the violent, stupid parts of Deism.

Any religion or non-religion has violent, stupid parts; and peaceful, wonderful parts.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. Oh, gee, you got me.

:eyes:

Let's do this quickly - assume the forefathers of America, many of them anyway, were diests. Consider that they most all of them fought in at least one war and killed people. Some of them even fought duels. Many of them owned slaves. I'd call that violent. And I'd call dueling stupid. Whether the violence was for a good cause or not is irrelevant - it's still violent, and, whoever the person is, has somehow found a way within their theological framework (in this case, the theology of deism) to justify violence. Or perhaps let's assume Jefferson is a Deist - he owned slaves. There ya go.

Show me a person, of any belief, non-belief, or anywhere in between, who is perfect, and I'll show you someone who doesn't exist.

:eyes:

[Boojatta]

8. If Deism had never existed, do you think there would have been less

slavery and/or less brutal slavery; more and worse slavery; or no difference?

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. I imagine no difference. Violent people, tyrants, assholes, will use whatever excuse is at hand,

whether it's called Deism, Buddhism, tribal loyalty, or honor. The religion or lack thereof that they claim is irrelevant - if Hitler had appeared in a majority Jewish Germany, he would have blamed the Christians and burned them; if the native Americans had been Deists and the early settlers Buddhists, the natives would have been killed in the name of converting them to Buddhism and/or excusing the deaths because they aren't really human.

Makes no difference what you call it - violence is violence, and evil is evil, and stupidity is stupidity.

[Boojatta]

11. Imagine identifying all Deists who ever lived and replaying the

history of the world with them never being born. For example, imagine a perfect simulation and imagine that the fertilized eggs that would become Deists spontaneously abort while they are still microscopic.

Would the world be better, worse, or -- from a morally point of view -- no different?

If the above doesn't make sense to you, then consider this. If we assume that Deism doesn't make people better, might it nevertheless be true that more virtuous people are more likely to be Deists?

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. You're pretty dedicated to Deism.

I applaud you for standing up so ardently for it!

[Boojatta]

23. Do you believe that religion cannot influence people in a positive way?

Do you not wish to discuss the possibility that, even if there can be no positive influence, there might be some correlation phenomena?

Who is or is not dedicated to Deism might be an appropriate topic for another thread, which you are of course free to create at will.

Do you think that any alternation or combination of studies and application of what is learned from the studies can help one acquire not just technical skills, but also wisdom?

Can good parenting help children acquire wisdom?

[crispini]

4. Well, to begin with, Buddhism is not particularly monolithic.

In fact, it might be even more splintered than Christianity. Buddha, after all, lived and taught for, what, forty or fifty years? There are many, many sutras, and many of the teachings put emphasis on different things.

Many Buddhist meditation techniques, such as the "Mindfulness" types of meditation, are used by many practitioners today, and are valuable for a variety of things. Learning to calm your mind and control it has a definite value to many people.

You ask about texts. I am most fond of the Lotus of the Wonderful Law, which can be found in a very vibrant and modern translation by Burton Watson. It has many colorful and wise parables about the nature of life and enlightenment.

I get the feeling from your post that you're not actually particularly interested in talking about Buddhism, but are more desirous of making a point about Sri Lanka. The situation in Sri Lanka is in fact difficult. May I remind you that pretty much all paths have people who are willing to put a darker spin on the teachings. Buddhism has fewer than most, I believe. Considering the number of practitioners world wide, it is a remarkably peaceful practice.

[Boojatta]

6. "... that you're not actually particularly interested in talking about Buddhism,"

No, I don't know anything about Buddhism. I could ask questions, but that is all.

[crispini]

9. Well, if you have additional questions, ask away!

Here is a parable from the Lotus which I particularly like:

At this time there was a bodhisattva monk named Never Disparaging. Now, Gainer of Great Authority, for what reason was he named Never Disparaging? This monk, whatever persons he happened to meet, whether monks, nuns, Laymen or laywomen, would bow in obeisance to all of them and speak words of praise, saying, 'I have profound reverence for you, I would never dare treat you with disparaging and arrogance. Why? Because you are all practicing the bodhisattva way and are certain to attain Buddhahood.'

"This monk did not devote his time to reading or reciting the scriptures, but simply want about bowing to people. And if he happened to see any of the four kinds of believers far off in the distance, he would purposely go to where they were, bow to them and speak words of praise, saying, 'I would never dare disparage you, because you are all certain to attain Buddhahood!'

"Among the four kinds of believers there were the those who gave way to anger, their minds lacking in purity, and they spoke ill of him and cursed him, saying, 'This ignorant monk - were does he come from, presuming to declare that he does not disparage us and bestowing on us a prediction that we will attain Buddhahood? We have no use for such vain and irresponsible predictions!'

"Many years passed in this way, during which this monk was constantly subjected to curses and abuse. He did not give way to anger, however, but each time spoke the same words, 'You are certain to attain Buddhahood.' When he spoke in this manner, some among the group would take sticks of wood or tiles and stones and beat and pelt him. But even as he ran away and took up his stance at a distance, he continued to call out in a loud voice, ' I would never dare disparage you, for you are all certain to attain Buddhahood!' And because he always spoke these words, the overbearing arrogant monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen gave him the name Never Disparaging.

"When this monk was on the point of death, he heard up in the sky fully twenty thousand, ten thousand, a million verses of the Lotus Sutra that had been previously preached by the Buddha Awesome Sound King, and he was able to accept and uphold them all. Immediately he gained the kind of purity of vision and purity of the faculties of the ear, nose, tongue, body and mind that have been described above. Having gained this purity of the six faculties, his life span was increased by two hundred ten million nayutas of years, and he went about widely preaching the Lotus Sutra for people.

"At that time, when the four kinds of believers who were overbearingly arrogant, the monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen who had looked with contempt on this monk and given him the name Never Disparaging - when they saw that he had gained great transcendental powers, the power to preach pleasingly and eloquently, the power of great goodness and tranquility, and when they heard his preaching, they all took faith in him and willingly became his followers.

http://lotus.nichirenshu.org/lotus/sutra/english/watson/lsw_chap20.htm

That's one of my favorite Bodhisattvas right there. :) I try to be like him.

[Boojatta]

16. What does it mean to be a Buddhist monk?

Apparently there's at least one Christian denomination that uses the word "priest" in such a way that any ordinary 16-year-old can be a "priest" in that denomination (not merely make progress towards becoming a priest later, but be a priest at age 16).

[crispini]

18. The meaning of being a monk varies a LOT from Buddhist school to Buddhist school.

Throughout Southeast Asia, where the Hinayana type of Buddhism is more prevalent, there is a lot of emphasis on the earlier, more formalistic teachings, and on "making merit." Most young men will become a monk for a few months in their lifetime as part of this "making merit." When I lived in Thailand I knew a foreign student who decided to become a monk for awhile. For them, it's mostly a "timeout" from the rest of their life, but it's also a bit of a rite of passage, as they typically do it after they have finished school. Then, of course, there are older monks who decide to permanently embark on the monastic life there; they are often teachers, writers, or do work in the social institutions that are associated with the temple. There are entire sets of taboos that monks adhere to that come from the Hinayana scriptures (dietary, set times for prayer, certain clothing, etc.)

In Japan, by contrast, some sects of monks may actually marry, and their sons may also become monks, but the general public wouldn't do so in the way that they do in Thailand. Monks are almost seen as a separate class of people or a separate career option. They tend to be a bit more secularized in terms of wearing things, dietary restrictions, and prayer. Of course, a lot of this has to do with the fact that Japan is Mahayana, from the latter teachings of the Buddha, and is less concerned with the formalistic ideas that were prevalent in the Hinayana teachings, but is MORE concerned with faith and belief, rather than ritual.

And, yes, a 16 year old could become a monk in Thailand, but he really would be a monk, living in the monastery, with all of the restrictions that implies. He wouldn't be a spiritual leader at that time, though, which to me is what is implied by "priest."

[crispini]

19. I got curious and looked online.

I found a neat site by a Westerner who became a Thai monk:
http://www.thaibuddhist.com/life_of_a_monk.html

and a very interesting site of a young Thai boyo about his time as a monk.
http://www.thailandlife.com/nattawud_02/monk.html

Some fun reading!

[papau]

12. to be not be ruled by the ego, to not worry, to meditate all seem to be good ideas - and

many in theistic religions also practice Buddhist behavior and could be considered also Buddhists (Buddhism is not a theistic religion - it is a way of life that leads to inner peace and happiness - so there is no conflict with theistic beliefs). The 8 fold path seems reasonable to me (Below the word "right" is a translation of the word sumac (Sanskrit) or sammā (Pāli), which denotes completion, togetherness, and coherence, and which can also carry the sense of "perfect" or "ideal"):

In one definition:

1. Right Speech - One speaks in a non hurtful, not exaggerated, truthful way
2. Right Actions - Wholesome action, avoiding action that would do harm
3. Right Livelihood - One's way of livelihood does not harm in any way oneself or others; directly or indirectly
4. Right Effort/Exercise - One makes an effort to improve
5. Right Mindfulness/Awareness - Mental ability to see things for what they are with clear consciousness
6. Right Concentration - Being aware of the present reality within oneself, without any craving or aversion.
7. Right Thoughts - Change in the pattern of thinking.
8. Right Understanding - Understanding reality as it is, not just as it appears to be.

And in another definition

1. Right view
2. Right intention
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration

and then it gets complicated! I'm not deeply into it so best to ask others for details - but for me it seems to be a nice reinforcement of Christian beliefs as to behavior. For instance meditation is common to both, and the practice of a centering prayer in Christian worship is similar to the use of mantras in Hinduism, in Zoroastrianism, and in Buddhism.

I have no clue as to why Buddhist monks might chose to lead violence and be violent - although I do recall the monks in VietNam that committed suicide by pouring gas on themselves and lighting it, so as to bring attention to the injustice of the US war in VietNam.. Again I am only at the 8 fold path level, if that, and at that level it seems a positive to one's life, regardless of the way you believe - or do not believe - in God.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

[crispini]

13. Yes, the eightfold path. And the four noble truths

1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering... the Middle Way (which starts with the Eightfold Path).

To me, Buddhism is remarkable for extolling MODERATION. The Buddha, after all, rejected his hedonistic life as a prince, but he also rejected the life of extreme austerity. How many religions talk about moderation? It's a rather remarkable thing, and rather unappreciated in our society.

[Boojatta]

14. "1. Life means suffering."

So would the use of all chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons in a massive world war be a practical method for eliminating suffering? That reminds me of a cult group that released poison gas in the Tokyo subway. (Aum Shinrikyo?)

[crispini]

15. Um, NO.

The rest of the four noble truths go on to explain APPROPRIATE methods of coming to terms with suffering. That would not be one of them. Here's the long version:

1. Life means suffering.

To live means to suffer, because the human nature is not perfect and neither is the world we live in. During our lifetime, we inevitably have to endure physical suffering such as pain, sickness, injury, tiredness, old age, and eventually death; and we have to endure psychological suffering like sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, and depression. Although there are different degrees of suffering and there are also positive experiences in life that we perceive as the opposite of suffering, such as ease, comfort and happiness, life in its totality is imperfect and incomplete, because our world is subject to impermanence. This means we are never able to keep permanently what we strive for, and just as happy moments pass by, we ourselves and our loved ones will pass away one day, too.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things and the ignorance thereof. Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas, and -in a greater sense- all objects of our perception. Ignorance is the lack of understanding of how our mind is attached to impermanent things. The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardour, pursue of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

The cessation of suffering can be attained through nirodha. Nirodha means the unmaking of sensual craving and conceptual attachment. The third noble truth expresses the idea that suffering can be ended by attaining dispassion. Nirodha extinguishes all forms of clinging and attachment. This means that suffering can be overcome through human activity, simply by removing the cause of suffering. Attaining and perfecting dispassion is a process of many levels that ultimately results in the state of Nirvana. Nirvana means freedom from all worries, troubles, complexes, fabrications and ideas. Nirvana is not comprehensible for those who have not attained it.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

There is a path to the end of suffering - a gradual path of self-improvement, which is described more detailed in the Eightfold Path. It is the middle way between the two extremes of excessive self-indulgence (hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism); and it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth. The latter quality discerns it from other paths which are merely "wandering on the wheel of becoming", because these do not have a final object. The path to the end of suffering can extend over many lifetimes, throughout which every individual rebirth is subject to karmic conditioning. Craving, ignorance, delusions, and its effects will disappear gradually, as progress is made on the path.

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html

Life IS suffering. For many of us, in many ways, every day. We have no choice about getting ill, growing old, losing loved ones, and seeing the pain in the world. We DO have a choice about how we react to it, and that can make all the difference.

[silverweb]

21. A very interesting thread.

And I thank you for your knowledge and insights.

Just as much, thank you for the link to www.thebigview.com -- what a terrific site!

:hi:

[crispini]

22. Thank YOU!

:) That site does look interesting, doesn't it? I'm going to check it out more myself.

[Evoman]

20. .............

Buddhism's like any other belief.
Its around to give adherents relief.
Some are bad and some good.
Ones a saint, ones a hood.
And the powerful make it cause grief.

[Boojatta]

24. To the man in the street...

Who I'm sorry to say,
Has a keen understanding of life,
The word "intellectual"
Suggests straight away
A man who's untrue to his wife.

[saltpoint]

25. Many Buddhist adherents are drawn to the notion of simplicity, of

stripping down their worldly possessions to an essential few things, even as they strive to help others.

Not such a bad agenda.

[saltpoint]

26. The sand paintings -- the mandalas -- are beautiful.

Beautiful in their impermanence as well as in their detailed capturing of a moment or an idea.