Christianity is not the enemy.

[Perky]

The Hostility among some DUers towards anything "christian" (like being horrified and queezy by having someone say have a "blessed day") is truly scary. Christofascists and their politics are the enemy. But this insidious hostlity towards anything approaching even nomimal religious niceties is as bad as (if not worse) than theirs. It is pretty much the same as a rightwinger running home to shower with ajax because a gay person smiled at them.

You folks who take a tact of blistering people for simply being pleasant need to get a life...And a new political party if you don't.
We can not be the anti-Christian Party. Which is what you seem intent on us becoming.

[youthere]

1. ..

:popcorn:

[bryant69]

2. Hmmm - this should produce a lot of useful and meaninful discussion

That said, this post, and the other one you refer to, belong in the religion ghetto. I have no doubt this one will get moved there pretty quick; I admit to be being bamboozled that the moderators chose not to move the one about "Have a Blessed Day" there.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[MonkeyFunk]

3. But many

don't find "Have a blessed day" to be a nicety, anymore than "I'll pray for you" is meant to be a kindness. They're impositions of one's personal religion masked by the veneer of niceness.

[Perky]

4. That not the issue

It was at best a sincer unagressive sentiment and the hostility it exposes is over the top.

[Donnachaidh]

23. and what about the *hostility* that arises when someone says

Blessed Be?

Try living in the US and NOT be a Christian before you complain about hostility. Try wearing a headscarf like Muslim women do and go shopping in an area that is predominantly Christian. Try even just standing by and watching the reaction of so-called Christians to people of other faiths.

I find this complaining about people of other faiths actually using their voices to speak up against the bigotry they deal with every day disingenuous at best.

[onenote]

7. Would you be equally offended by someone saying "peace be with you"

instead of good bye or farewell?

[MonkeyFunk]

10. I'm not terribly offended by

any of the expressions mentioned here. I just don't care that much.

But I have had people see the rainbow sticker on my car and say "I'll pray for you" and I didn't feel it was a kindness. It was a way of saying "I'm better than you, sinner fag".

But I wasn't terribly offended - I just laughed.

My point, though, is that I find all such expressions insincere.

[bryant69]

13. Because you just assume Christians are insincere?

Interesting reaction.

Bryant

[MonkeyFunk]

18. Nope

Never said any such thing.

[bryant69]

21. "My point, though, is that I find all such expressions insincere."

I must have misunderstood - if a Christian says to you "Have a blessed day" do you consider that to be insincere? And if so why?

Bryant

[MonkeyFunk]

34. Do you not understand

the difference between "such expressions" and "christians"?

[bryant69]

36. Ah - so the Christians who keep their mouths shut and don't say such things

are sincere?

Is that the distinction?

But if a Christian says "Have a Blessed Day" he or she is insincere?

Is that the distinction?

[MonkeyFunk]

40. Not sure why you want to pick a fight over this

I've made myself clear. You're free to feel differently.

[bryant69]

42. I just want to make sure I understand

If a Wiccan says "Have a Blessed Day" to you is that person necessarily insincere?

What if a non-religious person says "Have a great day" is such a person necessarily insincere?

Or is it just Christians who are insincere when they wish you a nice day within their own particular idiom?

Bryant

[MonkeyFunk]

50. I find

all such public displays of religiosity silly and trite, and yes, I do doubt the real motive behind them. In my experience, they're intended to announce the religion or sanctimony of the speaker more than they're intended to transmit a sincere message of well-wishing.

But maybe that's just me.

[bryant69]

55. So the real message behind any such expression is

"I'm better than you because I'm religious." Do you have any evidence beyond your personal feelings for this? Or is this just a gut reaction?

And again, does it matter to you if the person is Wiccan or say Muslim or Buddhist, wishing you well using a specifically religious idiom?

Bryant

[MonkeyFunk]

59. Do you think

you're going to change my mind by badgering me about this?

I've already given the example of Christians saying "I'll pray for you" after seeing the rainbow sticker on my car. Do you think they really were kindly people with nothing but best wishes for my happiness? I don't.

I'm offering my opinion, based on my experiences. You're not going to change my mind. You're free to say whatever you want, and I'm free to consider it silly.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wuushew]

70. Why else would someone else speak those words?

Either praying for everything and anything is the natural state of things or it is not. People tend to vocalize changes or events that differ from the status quo.

If you start yet another DU poll, I bet $20 most people would side with MonkeyFunk and say it was a slight.

[bryant69]

74. I have no idea what you are referring to here.

You should try again, and this time make sense.

Bryant

[onenote]

77. maybe because that is the most sincere, most heartfelt way they

have of expressing good wishes towards you?

[verse18]

46. It is insincere-

Do really think that if some says have a blessed day they really care what kind of day you have?

On Valentine's Day, I had to miss an important meeting at work to fight a bullshit ticket in court. I was not having a good day. It was cold and snowing, and I would have rather been at work. At least two people asked me how I was doing that morning and I told them "not good." They were like "Well have a nice day anyway." That's insincerity. I told them I was not having a good morning, but the didn't really care.

[Perky]

52. Well when I say something like that I mean it.

:shrug:

[onenote]

56. why?

Your example doesn't have anything to do with a religious greeting. So I take it you find all greetings to be insincere.

Well, hate to burst your bubble, but when I tell someone that I hope they have a good day, I actually mean it. And the same goes when someone greets me. Absent a reason to assume otherwise,I assume that they are sincere.

Now, if someone said "May the force be with you" or "Live long and prosper" -- maybe that would seem insincere.

[verse18]

64. And I'm glad you mean it when you say it.

But not everybody does, so my bubble hasn't burst. No matter if they say "have a blessed day" or "have a nice day," it's meaningless because they don't really care what kind of day you have. That's insincerity to me. I don't know how you define it. I told at least two people the day I was in court that I my day wasn't going well AFTER they asked me and they didn't care, they brushed me off. So why even bother saying anything at all?

[Gold Metal Flake]

8. Exactly.

[cali]

17. I've had that phrase directed

at me, and I've never found it remotely offensive, and as someone else asked would you feel the same way about someone saying "peace be with you" to you?

[MonkeyFunk]

60. nobody's ever

said that to me outside of a church service.

[onenote]

69. and, thus, if they did say it to you, you'd turn away in a huff

insulted by their injection of religiosity into your life by wishing that "peace be with you"?

[bananas]

24. Thanks for sharing! Let's do lunch! No, you don't look fat!

If niceties piss you off, you must be fuming by now... :evilgrin:

[Double T]

5. Religion does not belong in politics or political parties........PERIOD!!!

Religion should be personal and kept to one's self and others of the same beliefs.

[onenote]

9. damn those churches for organizing groups to come to DC to oppose the war

They should just stay out of it.
And that Rev. Martin Luther King guy -- what exactly was his deal, mixing civil rights and religion.
And Rev. Berrigan protesting the Vietnam War. Shoulda stayed in the pulpit where he belonged, I tell ya.

:sarcasm:

[Double T]

41. Civil Rights SHOULD have nothing to do with religion.

Many religious leaders should focus on their religion and NOT government politics. We have ALL seen the horrendous results of mixing politics and religion around the world.

[onenote]

51. wow. just wow.

I didn't know there were paintbrushes as broad as the one you are using.

So does the fact that opponents of civil rights in the south routinely targeted black churches with bombs and arson bother you or is that just something they were asking for by getting involved?

And what about churches giving sanctuary to victims of political opporession? You against that too?

[Double T]

65. If religions were absent from government politics, there would be the chance for greater.........

peace and harmony in the world. The problems of mixing religion and politics are nothing new; the historical track record speaks volumes for itself.

[Perky]

15. But the context od this dust-up was not political....

A customer service person simply said "have a blessed day".

[cali]

20. Gosh, too bad the REVEREND Martin Luther King

didn't listen to you, or REVEREND Coffin or the Berrigan brothers.

[Donnachaidh]

29. EXACTLY.

I personally don't care what religion anyone else follows. It should NOT be used as a tool to garner votes.

[Perky]

58. But then neither should "athieism"?

:shrug:

[mmonk]

6. Tell some of the Christians then (not here, in the general public).

I'm so tired of being called "the party of death" by my own Church. I couldn't ever dream up the death and misery they have helped bring forth.

[Perky]

11. With some of the comments on here why should they not

Villify the party as a whole? We tolerate as much intolerance as the Christians do.

[mmonk]

22. The first reaction when you're under attack

and people bear false witness against you is to fight back.

[Perky]

32. or turn the other cheek

:shrug:

[mmonk]

39. Not when they are helping to shread the constitution

and scuttle many of my family's rights. They chose their path.

[Perky]

44. But there is the problem

It is not all Christians...not even a majority of them. Which goes back to my OP

[mmonk]

57. When I get my Knights of Columbus magazine

and I see references to a book which calls the democrats the party of death, I get nothing out of attending church when those words and images come to my mind (even though that's not what's in the mass). I do not attack the Church but I sure fight politically those they work hard to put in my government and on the courts. So, in a way, I'm turning my cheek on the Church, but I fight back against those they array against me.

[Dhalgren]

12. I don't greet people with "There is no God! Enjoy your day!" Because

my beliefs are my beliefs and have nothing to do with you. Why would you say something to me that indicates we share a belief? If I stop and tell you that I do not believe what you believe, then I am being rude, yet you can say, in essence, that we share a belief and that's ok? Just don't share your beliefs with me and we will be great. There are any number of greetings and farewells that would not constitute you sharing your religious beliefs with me, why not use those, just as a way of being polite?

[Stuckinthebush]

28. You don't say "godisamyth" when someone sneezes?

:D

Your post made me think about greetings in a different light. Indeed, the assumption that I share beliefs with people when they say "Have a blessed day" is annoying. What does that mean anyway? I have had people tell me that I am overly sensitive, but it is just a reaction to assumptions in our society.

[Dhalgren]

43. LOL! "godisamyth"! I haven't before, but I will from now on!

Thanks! That is great! :rofl:

Seriously, though, it is this assumption that you share this belief that is embedded in the "Have a blessed day" or "God bless you" that is the irritant. I (or you) should be able to correct the speaker, but we almost never do, because "it would be rude" and "they don't mean anything by it"; but there is an underlying meaning and that is the problem.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. This is just a variant on the "Happy Holidays" discussion.

Happy Holidays covers all eventualities - Merry Christmas assumes that the recipient shares the belief of the speaker.

Everybody knows what "Geshundheit" is, and it translates to "good health" - I always use that because as well intentioned as "bless you" might seem, you just don't know (besides the fact that as an atheist I would never say bless you).

I also appreciate it when others make no assumptions about me.

[EST]

14. And now, perhaps, it might be a good idea to talk to

those who have an automatic negative reaction to christian talk or christian "values," or maybe anything having to do with religion, and find out what they think and why they think it.
If you really want to look for and solve problems in the democratic party, making a blanket condemnation of any group or individual without supportive documentation and discussion seems to be an abortive way to go about it.

The old indian saying about walking a mile in another's moccasins is always relevant and particularly so regarding religion or the absence thereof.

[bryant69]

19. No that's a stupid waste of time

Understanding people who are that offended by the mere existence of Christianity has no value; you might as well go around asking blacks to try and see things from the Klan's point of view.

Bryant

[TechBear_Seattle]

67. Who is offended by the "mere existence of Christianity"?

Talk about making blanket condemnations!

But then, looking at the many posts you have made in support of the Talibangelicals, I'm not at all surprised at the vast size of your strawman.

[bryant69]

71. I have never made a post in support of the Talibangalicals

You shouldn't lie to support your own position. I don't think all evangelicals are the enemy but that's not the same thing as support the Talibangelicals (by which I suppose you mean the Dominionists or the Religious Right).

If you are offended at someone wishing you a good day in the dialect of Christianity than you are offended at the presence of Christianity. Perhaps existence was an overreach; but certainly you don't seem to want to see any evidence of Christiaity.

Bryant

[Perky]

26. It is a two way street don't you think

I understand the villification of Christofascists bly the GLBT and even the AThiest community. What I do not understand is there capacity for hypocrisy. The rersponse to intolerance is not more intolerance.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. I had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses at my door Saturday.

A married couple who introduced themselves and asked me if I was concerned about the return of Jesus - The Second Coming.

When I told them I am a Buddhist, we had a pleasant chat about the Buddhism, Jesus' words, and peace.

No arguments, no threats, no fulminating. Just a nice chat about similarities in beliefs.

[trumad]

25. You folks---AKA You people....

I always loved that saying on DU....

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. If anyone says "blessed day" to me, I assume they're Wiccan. nt

[trumad]

30. I assumed I sneezed.

[Perky]

31. An excellent point as well.

[Stuckinthebush]

33. It depends on how you say the "ed"

Bless-ed = Wiccan

Blessed = Fundamentalist Christian

[genie_weenie]

35. Christians aren't the enemy

That is, True Christians. Christianity is an incorrect theory, though. The key is seperating criticism for people from their ideas.

[Beelzebud]

37. Remind christians that atheists aren't the enemy either.

Last week. Here on DU. Someone actually, in a serious manner, asked me how I have morals without believing in god.

[bryant69]

38. Please post a link to that discussion.

Bryant

[Beelzebud]

72. It was over 48 hours ago, and I don't see it in the 20 page archive.

Is there anyway I can go beyond the 20 pages?

My eyes are watery from scanning all of that stuff. :D

[bryant69]

75. If you remember who said it and

the approximate date you can use the search feature to narrow it down.

Bryant

[Perky]

47. I'd like to see that one as well

[Perky]

48. I'd like to see that one as well

[Jonathan50]

45. Have a nice, godless day....

I wonder if that would offend anyone?

[Double T]

54. 'godless' has no bearing on whether a day will be nice or not

[davhill]

49. Forged in the same crucible,

Both my religious and political beliefs originated in the 60s and 70s, when I listened to the Reverend Martin Luther King, watched priests, rabis, and ministers march hand in hand for civil rights, witnessed Christians beaten and thrown in jail for demonstrating against the Viet Nam war, heard about bishops, priests and nuns being raped and killed for their Faith and activism in South America.
It seems now that Evil has overtaken religion, as it has politics and the once free press. It is because of their effectiveness that religion, political activism, and the media have been infiltrated and controlled. Hostility to religion in DU can only make things worse. What we have to do is take back the institutions which have been taken away from us.

[Occulus]

61. Some of us have very good, sound reasons for keeping christians and christianity away from us.

Some of us are attacked on a daily basis by the religion and its followers. I wake up and go to sleep a victim of christianITY and of christians. Because of them and their religion, I can't get married, I feel unsafe showing affection in public for anyone I care for- even if it's only holding hands, and I have to assume, to ensure my own personal safety, that every person wearing a cross around their neck just might beat me up or try to kill me if they find out about me. And that, for me, is a matter of simple survival.

Because of them, I'm in doubt every single time I need to, for example, get tested for an STD (or in fact anything related to my own sexuality in any way that involves, for some reason, any outseide party who could be christian). Not that I might or might not have a disease, but because it might be a christian administering the testing, and if they find out I'm gay, I can't know that they won't fudge things "to teach me a lesson". I can't know that a rabid christian won't say I'm clean so I can go out and unknowingly infect "those sinful faggots" with whatever. Since we are talking about a religion whose hate for gays is actually written in the holy book, I don't think the chances of that actually taking place are all that slim.

I think you better think hard a moment or two, and then try to explain to me why any of this is wrong on my part, because this can not be undone by me. It's up to christians and christianity, and thus far, I've seen very little meaningful progress. In fact, now that I think about it, it is only because people such as myself have shoved our right to exist down the throat of this particular, specific religion that we are "allowed" to be who we are at all.

It sure isn't Bhuddists, or Jews, or Wiccans, or (inset_nonchristian_faith) bringing me this grief. It's christians and christianITY, an I am done taking their shit because I have to respect their religion.

They see being gay as a choice. Fine. It's not a choice, but fine. Religion is a choice, too, and if they don't respect me for my "choice" than I sure as fuck am not going to respect theirs.

[onenote]

66. Why do you assume all christians think exactly the same way?

I can understand and indeed share your antipathy towards certain institutional representations of religion -- "official" church hierarchies that attack, criticize and demean gays, for example.

But, even if those institutions and their followers represent a majority of christians, they do not represent them universally. And by adopting a knee jerk reaction against anyone or anything that smacks of christianity, you are attacking not only those who deserve criticism, but also those who disagree with the "official" stance on such matters and are trying to reconcile their faith with a tolerant and progressive view.

Your post treats every christian (and by the way, I'm not a christian) as if they were identical in belief and behavior. My question to you is whether you view members of the gay community the same way?

[Occulus]

83. I don't think you understood what I was trying to get across

I have to treat them all that way. My life could depend on it. I don't know which cross wearers will beat me up, just for "looking like a fag". And, mind you, I do everything I can to blend in with the breeders- because of christians and christianity.

I don't treat other gay people, or even people of other religions, the same way, because those groups don't go about burning christian businesses, beating or killing christians for being christians, legislating against christians because they're christians, etc., and etc. I could go on all day long about how GLBTs and other religions aren't harassing christians the way christians harass them.

In fact, it's been my experience that nonchristians are often far, far more Christ-like than christians are. Blanket statement? Yes, and one that in my experience is nearly always true.

You must understand this, at least: I fear christians in a way I fear no other adherent of any other religion. This is because their religion very clearly gives me something to fear from them. This was intentional, on their part, and I will not feel I have to justify my feelings toward them in any way. Their religion does not deserve the dignity of demanding I treat them the way they will not treat me.

I realize very well that it's not all christians who feel the way I've characterized this. I'm trying to say, I don't feel I have a choice when I don't know which ones will try to hurt me.

Oh, and... they started this. If it hadn't been for their behavior, I very likely wouldn't feel this way about them at all. But I've heard too many reports of attacks, had too many friends tell me thus and so about what xyz christian did to them, read too many obituaries, to feel any other way about it.

Sorry, christians- I don't think you're really on "my side", and I'm afraid you're going to have to go to very great lengths to atone for what your religion has done to me and people like me for a great many years, possibly decades, before I'm convinced.

[ellacott]

62. There is definately a level of intolerance that borders on hypocrisy

There are so many blanket condemnations of Christianity and no thought regarding the same blanket condemnations that our GBLT recieves or even African Americans and other minorities.

Every Christian is not insincere just as the blanket statements that are made against gays and minorities are wrong.

[Perky]

82. And I certainly do not think all Christians are sincere

MY OBJECTION IS THE DEFAULT ASSUMPTION THAT THEY ARE NOT OR THAT THEY ARE ALL HYPOCRITES.

[earth mom]

68. I want the freedom to not have to listen to people like you.

The so called "good intentions" of christians and others like you who can't keep their opinions and beliefs to themselves are hurting more than they are helping. And that is blatantly evident in that religion is the reason why there is so much unrest in the middle east and the world for that matter.

If you really care about solving the problems of this country and the world, you would first and foremost understand and realize that religion is a sensitive subject and people don't like or appreciate having other people shove their beliefs down their throats. Those who are offended will fight back verbally as some of us have done here on DU and yes, physically like they have throughout history to shut people like you up.

Once christians and others understand this simple fact, our country and our planet will heal.

Until that happens, there will NEVER be the total unity or peace on this planet.

[onenote]

76. i imagine there will never be total unity or peace

as long as there are people who take a simple expression of greeting from a stranger and treat it as an attempt to "shove their beliefs down their throats."

Y'know, if someone was prosletyzing me and trying to discuss religion and urge me to attend their church, etc., I would take offense. Someone saying "Have a blessed day" or "peace be with you" or
"good bye" (which literally comes from God be with you)? Fortunately, I've been blessed with the cognitive faculties to distinguish these situations.

[earth mom]

85. So it's attack the messenger instead of the message, hmm?

Again, you have to be "right" instead of using your brain to try and understand where I'm coming from. Thanks again for proving my point because if you really gave a damn you would at least try and understand what I've been saying in both threads.

Simply put it is this: What may seem inconsequential to you is offensive to me. Can you wrap your "cognitive faculties" around that notion or not? Or do you need a dictionary to spell it out?

BTW-as per your comment in the other thread-I don't care what religion you are.

[porphyrian]

73. Hate the Christian, not the Christianity.

I don't have a problem with people believing anything they want at all until it effects me in a way I didn't invite. Unfortunately, a number of self-purported Christians insist on breaking this simple rule.

[TechBear_Seattle]

78. An excellent statement!

:hi:

[porphyrian]

80. And sadly a true one.

;)

[onenote]

79. question for the mods: why did this thread get moved

but the thread that spawned it, dealing with someone saying "have a blessed day" didn't?

[Perky]

81. Yeah...what onenote said.....

Ths one is about intolerancs the spawner thread is just intolerant.

[cosmik debris]

84. To me, it is impolite

A person's religion is a persons opinion.

Opinions are like....you know.

Everyone has one, but polite people don't expose theirs in public.

[Moderator]

86. Locking

This is flame bait.