What's the big deal about proselytizing?

[Imperialism Inc.]

In the atheist community I hear a lot of people point to proselytizing as a reason to dislike religion. I guess I don't really have a big problem with it. I can only think of about a handful (5) or so times when I have been proselytized to in my 36 years on earth. One was when I was very young (5-8 yrs old) and some youth ministry group came and talked me in to coming to their Sunday school. That is until my mom got a hold of them when the bus showed up Sunday (my parents are nominally Christian but don't talk much about it and wanted their kids to make up their own minds about things). They did use a little hellfire talk as I remember it (the 'ole "if you died tomorrow where would you go?" routine) but I don't think that's why I said yes. I just remember not really knowing how to say no and stand up for myself. That is the only instance in my personal experience that bothers me. Kids should be considered off limits for that kind of thing.

The only other negative example I have is the crazy preacher guy that used to preach on OSU campus. He would yell out "whore monger" and other crazy shit to the passers-by. Kinda rude but I found him very amusing. I'd go watch him sometimes between classes for a good laugh. The other times were of the basic type: knock on door, do you want to be saved, no thanks, ok goodbye.

Other than the exploiting the weakness of kids though, I really don't have a problem with it. You want to tell other people about what you believe and convince them they should believe that too? Sounds fine to me. I'd like to do that myself. Of course I tend to do it in places like here (R/T) and other forums where people are actually coming for the sole purpose of discussing such things, but I would very much like for the atheist POV to be present in the culture at large. I think I've got the better outlook and yes I want people to know about it.

What I really have a problem with religion about is the ideas and methods of thinking that they are promoting. Not just that they are promoting ideas in general. The notion that the creator of the universe speaks to people and writes books (through them). Or that he talks to people and gives them final truths. That is what I dislike, what I want to argue against. I want to argue for a process of truth seeking that very well may never end. A process that includes checking our beliefs against the real world as much as we can. A process where the results we get from the real world are the last word on truth and we go where the evidence takes us.

[saltpoint]

1. Proselytizers are like chiggers. Who needs 'em?

I hope friends knock on the door of my house, not stranger-proselytizers who want to "save" me.

It's obnoxious.

[Warpy]

13. In this god soaked country, it's beyond outrageous

to have these fools ASSUME they need to sell you Jesus. That's ASSuming you've dwelt in a cave or under a rock and and don't know anything. It's beyond arrogant for them to tell a person his Jesus isn't the right one.

I wanted to kill any Jesus freak who leaned on my doorbell after I'd gotten to sleep after a 12 hour night shift.

The problem with proselytizers is that they have no personal boundaries. They have no clue that their particular belief ends at the surface of their skin, even if they've found a community that seems to share it.

If anyone wants to know why people hate proselytizers, compare them to telemarketers. They intrude into your space at their convenience.

That is what is wrong with them.

BACK OFF!

[saltpoint]

15. Hi, Warpy. You make sense on that 12-hour shift point.

These folks don't want an improved world, seems to me. They want a notch on their conversion belts, and they're often downright obnoxious about getting it.

They deserve contempt, as you put it, like telemarketers. Same idea, same wrong-headed intrusion.

[BOSSHOG]

2. If ya wanna see

Proselytizing as an art form pain in the ass come to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. I don't have any problem with anyone recruiting for their product or cause but one NO should be enough. I've had to run them off my property and that should not be necessary. And "them" are young kids. Who are they working for and how do they get to be so aggressive?

[crikkett]

6. BINGO - one 'no' should be enough

that's the very reason that I don't go for proselytizing. The problem is that evangelicals specifically are taught to fear for the people who say "no", so this causes the poor folks great consternation. Some of them are really trying to help in their own misguided way. Others, well let's just say there are power-mad assholes everywhere.

[Warpy]

14. I worked nights. A sign on my doorbell said

"DAY SLEEPER."

They didn't respect it.

The next sign said "DAY SLEEPER WITH A GUN."

They didn't respect that either, although it got rid of the political petition people.

At one time, I actually considered getting a gun just to have something to point at them.

[BOSSHOG]

16. Its so easy to be considerate

My neighbor is a shift worker. He works em all, days, nights, 18 hour shifts. I always ask him when he'll be sleeping during the day and I won't mow on those days. It doesn't take much effort at all.

[saltpoint]

18. One of those shoulder-held rocket launchers might have been

pretty effective.

And a photo of you holding it next to the DAY SLEEPER sign.

If you need a character witness at any time, Warpy, give me a call.

[Warpy]

22. This all happened pre Photoshop

However, I did manage to get rid of them here. I'd fling open the door, hair wild, murder in my eye, and shriek "THIS PLACE BETTER BE ON FIRE!!!"

I haven't seen a JW in nearly 10 years.

[saltpoint]

23. Excellent strategy. Good for you.

[Mabus]

25. LOL, I've chased them down the block and called the cops on them

but they keep coming. I've called the churches they attend/represent and asked that they stay away from my home but it doesn't work. I even had one of the ministers tell me that my soul needed saving and they would be back before he hung-up on me. That was the Baptist contingent.

The JW's have written letters to my husband expressing their dismay at me and my actions. The first couple of times I told them "no thank you" and asked them to leave us alone. They kept coming so I started getting rude. After about six months, I started telling them to "fuck off and leave us alone" that's when they started the letter writing campaign to my husband.

The Mormon's pretty much stay clear anymore. Although, once in a while, one of them will knock.

Some fundamentalist denomination sent some people out to exorcise me and our house. They were convinced I was possessed. I guess I chose the right moniker. :eyes:

The sign on my door says "No Proselytizing" and "I don't disturb you in your home, please don't disturb us in ours" but since it doesn't work I either let them stand at the door for as long as they want. I just refuse to answer it. I originally put the sign up when my brother was staying with while he recuperated from surgery. The doctors told him to stay still and sleep for a few days. I put up a "no proselytizing" sign because they come through here so frequently. They stopped by anyway, that's when I called the cops on them and chased them down the street accusing them of trying to kill my brother.

I keep hoping if I act crazy enough they will just leave us alone. It's like a Christian thoroughfare around here some weeks.

[donco6]

3. I just don't want them doing it to a captive audience.

Ala - schools. That's a double-off-limits, IMO.

[noamnety]

4. "knock on door, do you want to be saved, no thanks, ok goodbye. "

Ever have that happen after you've gone a full 24 hours without sleep, then spent an hour trying to get a crying baby to go to bed - and 5 minutes after they have FINALLY drifted off, BZZZZZT the doorbell goes off, the baby wakes up, and you have to get the baby from the crib, carry it down the flight of stairs from your apartment to the front door, only to find a jehovah's witness there - and then you have to go back upstairs and spend ANOTHER hour trying to get the baby to go back to sleep again?

I have.

I am not sure what kind of person you have to be to believe that everyone else can and should drop whatever they are doing so you can invade their personal time and personal space at your convenience, as if whatever those other people are doing is LESS important than how you've decided they should spend their time, as if whatever they are doing is trivial compared to you, and you know better than they do what they should be thinking, as if people can interrupt their lives and go right back to what they are doing like the disruption never happened.

[jobycom]

5. To me, it's the same annoyance I'd have for any salesperson I didn't want to speak to.

If I want to buy insurance, I'll go to a salesperson, but when one comes to me, it's an annoyance. I don't hate all insurance because of it (I hate it for other reasons :) ), but I do dislike that he's interrupting my day with his priorities, instead of allowing me to follow my own priorities.

And I dislike certain types of proselytizing, like when someone corners a person and gives them the "You are going to Hell" speech. I've never seen a sincere conversion based on that speech.

And there is a bigger picture. Christians who feel compelled to proselytize too often feel compelled to judge people based on their religious agreement with them. The basic assumption behind proselytizing is "I'm right, and you are inferior for not believing me." That leads to a strong inequity, a complete lack of respect, from those who feel compelled to proselytize towards those who don't want any of it--especially atheists. That lack of respect pops up in politics, in education agendas, in forcing prayer on people at public events, etc. It leads people to feel superior. (And yes, I feel that way about atheist proselytizers, too--you know the ones, they pop into any thread mentioning religion and spout of something like "God is make-believe.")

I guess that's the bottom line. I don't dislike the religion because of proselytizing. I dislike it when individuals proselytize, because behind the action is the assumption of superiority. And as we all know, I am superior, so I dislike others not recognizing that. :)

Also, there's a difference to me between proselytizing and "witnessing" when someone shows interest in someone else's beliefs in daily life. If someone asks me why I'm an atheist, I'm happy to explain it to them, and handle any arguments they raise, and explain to them where they can learn more about it. But I'm not going to approach someone cold and start preaching, because I know how rude that would be. So I'd like that treatment in return.

[booksenkatz]

8. I very much agree with your post

And I'll just add that my parents always told me that it's very rude to discuss religion, politics or money with someone unless *both* parties decide they want to discuss it. When a stranger approaches me wanting to discuss something that I consider so extremely personal, he or she may as well be asking me about my underwear or my personal hygiene habits or how much money I make or who I voted for in the last election. It's no one's business unless I choose to make it so.

I was raised to believe that religion is a highly, highly, highly private and personal issue. Hence, my distaste for proselytizing.

For the record, I'm an agnostic who is very interested in spiritual matters, but I certainly don't discuss these things with strangers. My friends and I have very interesting discussions, though! It's not that I won't discuss them, I just won't discuss them with a stranger.

[jobycom]

9. Religion isn't all that private to me.

But telling someone their religious beliefs are wrong is just rude and disrespectful. And that's the heart of proselytizing.

[Imperialism Inc.]

19. Well I certainly don't agree with that.

I tell republicans they are wrong all the time, but because it is a subject called religion I automatically have to keep quiet? That really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Unless I am misunderstanding you.

[jobycom]

21. You are. nt

[OHdem10]

7. In gereral, I agree with most of your points

I am a practicing Catholic who culturally grew up
with the old maxim. Do Not Wear your Religion on
your sleeve. Live a life which reflects you believe
and follow Christ. People should see your religion
in your behavior--how you treat others. Talk is Cheap.

Having said that I resent the influence Religious
Groups exert as they try to impose their beliefs
on our nation. Stem Cell Research is constantly
be stopped because the RR has such a hold on
the Republican Party. Now you have RR saying
the new wannabee==Fred Thompson is not Christian
enough because they have never heard him speak or
talk religion in his conversation. I do not have
a dog in that fight(Repub Election) but it bothers
me to think Candidates have to pass some Religion
Test. Guilliani and McCain do not meet their
religious standards. This is not healthy for
Democracy. We are electing a President not
First Pastor. Likewise, I , apraticing Catholic
am considered Godless by their standards. I
am also a Liberal.

On occasion, some members of other churches come
to my door--you could call it attempted proselytizing/
I respectfully decline, explaining I am a practicing
Catholic . It does not bother me. This is
my neiborhood--not governmental involvement.

[msongs]

10. didnt jesus allegedly say pray in your closet and shut the door? nt

[jobycom]

11. In a different context, he said something like that.

I'm too lazy to look up the exact passage, but basically he was criticizing those who prayed loudly in temple to win approval from others. He was making a point against religious posers.

But he clearly instructed his followers to go out and preach his message in every town and every household they could find. He even instructed that they were to turn husband against wife, brother against brother, etc, in a household if one believed him and the other didn't. His famous quote about coming not with an olive branch but with a sword (I probably mucked that one up, too) was in that context, not in a literal context (though some people try to use it to prove that Jesus would have supported the invasion of Iraq).

There's a Bible verse to justify everything, except, I think, eating shrimp. You won't get them to stop that way. :)

[RubyDuby in GA]

12. What region of the country do you live in?

I'm asking because I live in the South and I am an atheist. If you dare to tell someone that on any given Saturday (as there is someone knocking on my door every Saturday morning), they look at you like you have 3 heads and you're the devil.

Even after you put this on your door they don't stop:


Even after you tell them politely the first time that you are not interested, then not so politely the next time and flat out tell them to fuck off after that, they just keep coming back.

And it's everywhere down here. If you don't declare yourself to be a good Christian and let everyone know it, you are treated differently.

[Evoman]

17. Its because they interrupt your life.....

and although that in itself doesn't necessarily piss me off to much, they won't just go after 1 or even 3 no's and "I'm not interested". I live in an apartment that you have to buzz to get in...you wanna know how much nerve they have?

They buzz me (apt 1). They ask me if I'm interested blah blah blah...I say NO. And I hang up my phone line. They buzz my neigbours, who let them in for some goddamn reason, then they come to my door first (apt 1!!). FUCCCK.

I live with my gf, so last time they came, one of the guys started talking in spanish. My gf, who doesn't know spanish and assumed they were a family member of mine, let them in. Knock on my door...the guy somehow knows my dad (although if he did really know my dad, he would know that my dad hates religion). Starts asking me if I want to go to this church event. I say no. He asks me why not? I tell him I don't believe in god.

"Well, a lot of people see the bad things in the world and loss of life around them and find it hard to reconcile it with...."

I had to stop him and say, "No, I don't not believe for those stupid emotional reasons...my objections are based on reason and logic. I am no interested"

Finally the fucker leaves. I wouldn't bother me if it was 1 minute or less, but these people disrupt my life.

[Imperialism Inc.]

20. Starting to see that as pattern. I've never had that kind of super-forceful

experience people are describing. That would certainly be much more annoying.

[NMMNG]

24. Those who proselytize

1. Assume that you have never heard the "gospel" and are in dire need of it, be it on your door step, at the mall, in the grocery store parking lot while you're loaded down with bags of groceries, or in any other number of venues when they're likely inconveniencing you.
2. Never know how to take "no thank you" for an answer even when it's stated two or three times.
3. Can be downright abusive if you "reject" their message and/or if they perceive you to be a "sinner" (gay, atheist, unwed mother, etc.), proclaiming you hell-bound or worse if you don't repent and seek The Lord--as if that's an effective way to sell their product (and essentially proselytizing is nothing but a sales pitch).


They're pretty much like telemarketers who think they're doing you a favor by pushing their product on you (in addition to winning another soul for the Big Guy). And who likes telemarketers? :shrug:

[jgraz]

27. I have no problem with proselytizing if...

You only do it if asked, and you never do it to children. Under those rules, I get to preach atheism all the time. The conversation goes something like this:

Xian: What are you doing for Christmas/Giving up for lent/etc/...

Me: Nothing, I'm an atheist.

Xian: An atheist?! How can you be an atheist??

Long discussion ensues, usually leaving the christian stunned and wondering about their own unexamined beliefs.

:evilgrin:

[NMMNG]

28. If they waited until they were asked /only did it when they were asked

How many "customers" do you think they'd actually get? :shrug:

Hence the aggressive techniques.

[jgraz]

29. I take it as an open invitation to recruit for our side

You should see how fast those cheap black suits run when you start preaching to wonders of atheism.

[loudestchick]

26. I haven't always had a problem with the folks who want to save me.

I have asked the JW's in to discuss the book...I've had some lively discussions of the Book of Mormon with the "young men in ties". I was raised in the RLDS church and my father was a pastor. I have a terrific base of scriptural knowledge.

Then I had kids.

They go after my kids. The harass and badger my children. They give them lovely gifts with pictures of Mary w/ a cherry on them. They tell my lovely, social conscious 12yr old that she's going to hell. They want to have special christian programs at my children's school and then cannot fathom why I would object.

[zonmoy]

30. with proselytizers

I figure that they have the right to believe what they believe. where their rights end is when they try to force or pressure their beliefs on me.