My friend was abducted by aliens the other night

[mudesi]

They gave him special powers. He can walk through walls and turn invisible. I saw them abduct him and then bring him back, and he showed me how he can disappear and walk through the door without opening it.

After his demonstration of his powers, he told me that he will be going back to the Mother Ship to join the aliens' civilization. I didn't have a video recorder on hand at the time, so I can't post a video for you on YouTube, so you'll just have to take me at my word. If he comes back, I swear I'll have my webcam handy. For now, you'll have to go without proof.

Do you believe me? If not, why not? Be specific.


Now try this:
Take your 2 year old son and tell him my story. Make sure you tell him often and keep telling him my story throughout his childhood. If he questions the story, be sure to admonish him. My friend told me that the aliens are listening, and if your son questions the story, they will come up in the middle of the night to take him away.

When your son grows into an adult, will he believe me? I bet you he will.

This is what religious indoctrination is.

[barb162]

1. If religious indoctrination is as you say, why do so many people

become non-religious as adults

[beam me up scottie]

3. Uh, I hate to bring up the whole Santa thing but...

:shrug:

[barb162]

6. Do you still believe in Santa?

Just kidding
:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

9. I still hate my brother for spilling the beans.

Damn him!

[barb162]

16. Me too! My older brother did the same thing.

[beam me up scottie]

25. I was devastated.

But the damnedest thing happened, I still got the loot on Christmas day.

[barb162]

34. Well here's something interesting

After my bro gave me the bad news about S---a, we saw him and the sleigh and the reindeers in the sky on a snowy night on the back porch, with no airplane in front of them. He brought that up to me a few years ago and said do you remember that. And I said yep. I'll never forget it. Now he and I know there's no elves shop at the north pole and all, but we both saw it

[beam me up scottie]

43. My dad tried SO hard to get us to see Santa.

But I never did.

I was the four year old brat who kept asking mom how fat old Santa got out of the chimney when we had no fireplace.

She told me they left the back door unlocked for him. :)

[The Magistrate]

44. We Just Had, Ma'am

A stern lecture from our youngest grandson on ther non-existance of the Easter Bunny. He pitched it on an interesting ground: bunnies cannot use money to buy the candy and baskets and toys in the stores....

[beam me up scottie]

45. Oh boy, the teachers are going to have fun with him!

You can't put anything past a kid like that, he obviously gave it quite a bit of thought.

Glad to see you're still here, Sir.

[barb162]

65. Let us know how things go when someone brings up how the stork

brings new babies home.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[barb162]

64. We didn't have a fireplace

SO you can imagine the stories we heard from the parents. I remember it mostly consisted of variations of: If you don't quit bothering me, he won't be here for Christmas.

[LiberalFighter]

32. They receive the education that disproves those beliefs.

It is easier to let go of those beliefs when not associating with others having the belief that are close to you.

[hlthe2b]

2. I understand your issues with organized religion...

really, I do...

But, it seems to me your repeated threads that seek to attack the tenets of some religious teachings, as well as the unprovable "traditions," is becoming very insensitive for those DUers who hold those beliefs... Is it your intention to offend or even initiate a flamewar? Surely not? :shrug:

[More Than A Feeling]

5. Why is it not ok to challenge religious ideas, in your opinion?

Why do they get a pass?

[hlthe2b]

13. I would simply elect to do so on a day other than Easter

or passover if I were only sincerely interested in wanting to discuss (and challenge) religious ideals, rather than incite. Your mileage may vary, I suppose, but that is how I feel.

[More Than A Feeling]

17. If anything gets incited, who will be to blame

the person who challenges, or the person who feels said challenge is so much that it is worth getting incited over?

Shouldn't the person getting challenged have more self-control than that? Regardless of what day it is?

[hlthe2b]

22. I'm old fashioned.. I guess

As mentioned, I have no real dog in this fight.

I suppose that I revert to having been brought up to respect other's religious beliefs and as such, it would never occur to me to start a thread like this on a major religious holiday.

As I said ealier though... "different strokes for different folks," I suppose. :shrug:

[barb162]

14. Religion is based (a lot or totally ) on faith, not facts, right?

Ultimately one ends up attacking the faith. Unless it is Scientology, and I have no idea where they or their stuff come from. Another galaxy?

[More Than A Feeling]

19. There is a difference between challenging religious ideas and

religious identity, unless the person being challenged has their identity so entwined with the ideas that to challenge one is to infringe upon the other.

[hlthe2b]

24. Yes... I suppose..

[beam me up scottie]

31. We can separate the believer from the belief.

The believer can't always do the same.

[beam me up scottie]

7. There is nothing offensive about that post.

"attacking the tenets of some religious teachings" is not the same thing as attacking believers.

He insulted no one, singled out no particular religion and refrained from using inflammatory terms (like my Santa reference).

How is it offensive?

[barb162]

10. I didn't find the Santa thing offensive. I thought it was funny

and on the mark.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Well, it's kind of taboo in here.

We have a loose pact with believers about using certain analogies and buzz words in this forum, but I've already pissed off a bunch of people tonight so I figure, why stop now?

[More Than A Feeling]

21. Well, "atheist evangelism" seems to be rising in popularity, and that has to be the equivalent

of the santa claus analogy, right?

[beam me up scottie]

26. You mean the gloves are off ???

Oh boy!

[barb162]

27. It might be rising at DU but not necessarily elsewhere

I wonder if it is even rising here.

[More Than A Feeling]

30. I've seen it from at least three different posters today, and one yesterday.

I even started a thread on the use of "atheist fundamentalists" awhile back, and that term seemed to be justified in the minds of some folk.

[barb162]

40. That's probably a good term. It may be rising around here

because of Easter and all of its attendant religious celebrations in the news.

[More Than A Feeling]

46. I think its a silly term.

Fundamentalism isn't just an insult to be tossed around. Fundamentalism means adhering to the five fundamentals, which no non-believers do, because they are things like "the Bible is inerrant". Google them for the rest.

[barb162]

63. I've never heard of the five fundamentals

so I will have to google.

[barb162]

23. Oh, I didn't know of that taboo.

Sorry

[beam me up scottie]

29. No need to be sorry.

This was a different forum then.

I still try not to deliberately insult liberal believers. but Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch, some of the newbies are practically begging for it.

[orleans]

15. well, your santa reference offended me!

no it didn't. i'm just kidding! (smile) :hug:

[beam me up scottie]

20. I can't help it, I'm just naturally offensive.

My drill instructors didn't have a sense of humour either, unfortunately.

[cyborg_jim]

8. You can't control what other people take offense to.

[mudesi]

33. Offense is not my intention

I understand people may take offense, but there is nothing I can do about that. The purpose of a discussion forum is to discuss, debate, and disagree, is it not?

I take great strides to keep my threads as logically consistent as possible, and if there are any holes in my arguments, by all means, I'm willing to have them pointed out to me.

I try to not use inflammatory rhetoric and I try to be as respectful I as possibly can be, but my basic premise cannot be changed. If we are to have real, thoughtful, logical discussions on this forum, as everyone (both theists and atheists) always seems to be whining about the lack thereof, then I cannot abstain from posting these thoughts of mine, and I encourage everyone to rational debate.

[barb162]

38. Why do people change religions? why do people become

atheists, agnostics or religious, jumping around from one to another if the indoctrination happens as children and is so effective?

[cyborg_jim]

39. Are all people equal?

Some people are just going to be more susceptible to this than others. Some people are going to react differently to others when faced with contrary information.

[barb162]

41. What I notice is that some extremely scientific types are very

religious. And some extremely illiterate types are also very religious. And everything in between. Religion is pretty universal on this planet as an explanation for where we are in the universe and how we fit in. I think faith is what it's about and if it gives people comfort, fine.

[hlthe2b]

49. Einstein for one.. He very much believed in God...

This apparently surprised some of his contemporaries. In believing in God, he also believed there was order in the universe and continued to seek theories and answers to the physical phenomenon that were consistent with "order" and "plan."

[WhollyHeretic]

50. "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions,

a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." -- Albert Einstein, 1954

"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."
-- Albert Einstein

[hlthe2b]

51. Several biographies I've read counter this with other quotes,,,

And yes, I'm off to work, so you'll have to bear with me. I will try to find some links to back my statement, but I simply do not have time right now.

I will say that if you took my comments on religion over the years, I would similarly be a study in contradiction.

[hlthe2b]

54. Einstein and his beliefs...

The quotes you cite are interpreted by most to indicate Einstein to be a deist--that he did not believe in (nor worship) a personal God, but did believe in a creator God--creator of universal laws. So perhaps agnostic is best description...

[PassingFair]

62. He described himself as an atheist. n/t

[barb162]

66. Yes, there's that new book out on him

and your comment was in line with some of the reviews I have read of the book. .

[greyl]

42. The integrity of our "selves" isn't assured by holding false beliefs, therefore

recognizing weakness in our beliefs does not ultimately equate to a weakening of our selves. It's nothing personal, iow. Though we may be emotionally attached to them, we are neither our khakis, nor our faith-based beliefs.
In my opinion.

[emilyg]

4. That's nothing...

my friend was abducted by Bush.

[orleans]

11. "My friend was abducted by aliens the other night"

(i HATE it when that happens!)

wow. interesting analogy.

i always told my daughter stories about fairies--non religious fairies.

[okasha]

12. Your friend has disappeared,

and you were the last person to see him alive.

The real question is, do the cops believe you?

[LiberalFighter]

35. lynard better run.. cops are going to bust the door down LOL

[LiberalFighter]

28. It didn't take much to convince my son that he was eating possum meat

even though it was chicken. He was about 12. He went and told his friends that he had possum meat.

[firefox_fan]

36. What, it's not true that your friend was abducted?

:)

[L. Coyote]

37. The Easter Bunny is an alien, so this is no coincidence. The timing is obvious

to every clear-minded person. Obviously, during their annual visitation, the egg-laying aliens decided to take your friend back as a slave, to paint the eggs for next year. Don't worry, he'll reappear next Easter, when they return. I just hope his artistic abilities meet their stringent criteria.

Ahh, make believe. Someone who believes Jesus visited the Americas, Sumerians settled in America, and gold tablets in Ohio reported this, is running for President. Never mind that we have a science called archaeology now! People in our society seem to just ignore truth in favor of separate, personal realities. Too bad politicians do too.

[pinto]

47. That's a good analogy in some ways. Yet, I also got a few things

about living an ethical life from my early religious "indoctrination" that I still value.

The simplicity of the parables and their messages were particularly easy to grasp as a child. I'm sure they helped form the foundation for my current secular liberalism.

[Evoman]

48. I was abducted by aliens once.

They paralyzed my entire body, and then picked me up with a beam of light into their spaceship. I was quite scared. I lay on this table, unable to move, while they examined me. Finally, I got enough strength to speak and I asked them if they were going to probe my anus, because I was NOT cool with that.

They told me they had no interest in interacting with an orifice that was not overly significant and served only to expel waste. So they taped my mouth shut, and started probing my anus.

[cosmik debris]

53. That was not the worst choice possible

What if they had taped your anus shut and started probing your mouth?

It could happen, yeah.

[Orrex]

58. Even worse

What if they did one and then the other, using the same probe?

:puke:

[MistressOverdone]

52. Okay. Here goes

Were there a dozen or so of your best friends with you at the time? Was his mother there, his entire family? Did at least 8 of them write down the experience while they were still alive? Did this abduction and the result of it so radically change the people that heard about it that they were willing to die in order to worship the abductee? Did eventually millions and even billions of individuals find the evidence and the message so compelling that they followed the tenets of the abductee?

Back to reality. This is a good attempt at a comparison, but it has a couple of weak areas. One, I don't know of any parents who tell their children if they question the story they will be taken away in the middle of the night.

My personal path to faith did come from a family that attended church, but aside from saying grace at meals, there was no talk to God or Jesus in the house. That was considered overly emotional and rather tacky. I never had someone say "I will pray for you" until I was about 25. It floored me.

My faith happened when I opened my mind and my heart to the possibilities. Yes, I asked Jesus to come into my heart. It wasn't at an altar call, it was sitting on the front porch swing. And from that day on, every single day, I see "proof" that FOR ME this was the right decision.

Faith isn't for everyone. If I believe in fairy tales, Santa, etc., that's okay because my savior told me to believe as a little child. So when I am accused ot that, while I mentally note the bad manners of the accuser and quite often hit ignore if the abuse gets ttiresome, it's okay. I'm not going to complain about it. And I can understand if people who don't have this wondrous gift just can't quite figure out those of us who do. There must be a reason why some have it and some don't. But I have no explanations for that.

And maybe someday we'll all know the answer to that. But right now we don't.

[mudesi]

55. All good points

But since this entire exercise is a thought experiment, I reserve the right to modify it.

A dozen of my best friends were with me. His mother and his father also. Several people wrote down that they saw him walk through the door, but nobody had a video camera. We all told a whole bunch of people, and they all believed us and now they're, in turn, telling more people the good news about my abducted friend.

The question still remains: Do you believe my story, and if not, why not?

Why is it so easy for you to question my story? Is it the fact that you didn't see it happen with your own eyes, that we don't have video proof, that you question our credibility? If I could convince, say, 900 people of my story, people willing to die for my friend, would that be enough? Is there a certain quota, a certain lower limit of followers required before you decide to open your mind and heart to the possibility that my story is factual?

All that said, I feel I must add this disclaimer: Please don't take my posts here to be a personal attack on you or the religious in general. I'm not trying to goad or anger the religious people in this forum, but I feel that my posts are logically consistent and as respectful as possible; as respectful as one can be when one questions another's deeply personal beliefs. In my opinion, it would intellectually dishonest to hold back my thoughts because of fear that I may offend.

[MistressOverdone]

59. Modification is fine

Now, your example. Hmmm. 12 trusted ("best") friend and you, and the parents. I might well believe them, or at least really investigate.

But here's another weakness in the analogy. Walking through a door is not the same as saying "I died for your sins so you can have eternal life." It was the meaning of the words that resonated with the masses, in my opinion. It was also the totality of the numerous miracles, the execution, the ressurection and the ascension.

You do not offend me when you frame your questions respectfully, as I hope I don't offend you when I point of aspects that need to be strengthened.

[Goblinmonger]

56. Addressing your weak area

"I don't know of any parents who tell their children if they question the story they will be taken away in the middle of the night."

I think this was the OPs attempt to replicate the "You'll go to hell" or "You won't get into heaven" if you don't believe in God/Jesus/Allah/etc.

[MistressOverdone]

60. Ah, I see

I do remember hearing about hell at age 4 from a Catholic friend. It didn't go over well.

[Goblinmonger]

61. Just for the record

I am not saying that ALL religious nor ALL christians believe in and teach the concepts of hell the same way. But it is my take that that was the point of the OP. And most Christian religions (not all of course) have some concept of punishment or "not being with god" worked into the dogma.

[kiahzero]

57. I don't believe you, but I'm not going to try and dissuade you either

To each his own. :shrug: