My fellow DU Christians

[More Than A Feeling]

This is apparently how we are thought of:

"And one thing I've noticed, throughout this thread and Will's previous, has been that all these good xtians never even DISCUSS the possibility of maybe starting to speak out against the more repressive and violent aspects of THEIR organizations, I guess cuz christians never take any personal responsibility for the actions of their collective, as if they had NOTHING to do with it, NO recourse, NO voice, no choice...
In particular, a number of gay people have spoken passionately about how most sects in modern christianity are actively working to create a dangerous and emotionally toxic environment for them to live in... and all we've gotten so far from the good christians, who are always happy to point out all the supposed good works they and their christian brethren are constantly performing, is shocked and angry denials, and arguments mostly involved in pointing at some good works past reference or other...
But I don't hear any of them engaging these people, who are obviously suffering, in any truly compassionate or human way...
Aren't you christians the ones who are supposed to be so skilled at being understanding and forgiving?
And others point out how christianity in extremis is threatening to tear our democracy asunder... but the christians here aren't addressing this much either, except to insist that their involvement has no connection to whatever negative effects may flow from the overall collective they actively support with their time and money...
This is one of the problems with organized religion generally: It makes you so warm and comfy and self-satisfied, you're always sure that everything's just fine, we're all in the lord's hands and it's such a beautiful creation, this lovely world God gave us to enjoy, isn't it?
The suffering cry out, here in these posts... they speak in plain words, beseeching you to hear them and respond as if their lives matter... and all you pious people have is your knee-jerk defensive arguments and your smug indignation.
Religion... feh.
BTW, I was raised catholic (big surprise, huh?)... but I found the perfect loophole out--I gave it up for lent."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3374510

Clearly, if people think about us like that, then there is a problem. What can we do on this message board and in life, so that we can be the light shining on the hill, rather than the view espoused above?

[Catch22Dem]

1. You probably don't want my opinion, but since you asked...

Perhaps trying to be the "light shining on the hill" is part of the problem. What's wrong with being the light shining at church or in the privacy of your own home and letting me get mine from good ol' General Electric?

[tuvor]

3. I think I'm about to rest my case. n/t

[More Than A Feeling]

5. I only meant that clearly we are doing something wrong

if that is the way we are thought of, and that we might try to change and dispell that image. Setting a good example, as you might say.

Just seeing if anyone had any ideas, that's all. No proselytizing or belief infringement intended.

On edit: I suppose I ought to start it off, by stating up front that those who would destroy the Separation of Church and State are unequivocally wrong. Also, I reject the kind of judgment based God who is going to drop kick gays and so forth into hell, while blessing covetousness and the love of money. You cannot worship God and Mammon.

[tuvor]

6. Clearly, there's a conflict. It's not clear who's doing something wrong.

Since it takes two to tango, my feeling is that the blame can go around to a lot of people with a lot of different viewpoints. At any rate, I don't think you can pin all of the blame on one particular group.

I do commend you for trying to do something constructive, though.

[tuvor]

2. If you try to be a light shining on the hill

someone's bound to say you're shoving your belief down their throat and the thread will just fall apart.

In the end I can't do anything about someone who decides I'm something I'm not based on some posts.

Those who know me better know me better.

[dbeach]

4. The phony christians of GWB are not christain at all...

real Christians would not execute over 100 in TX and mock the execution of Karla Tucker who was first female executed for yrs.
Herr bush mocked her pleading for her life..
That moment shows the truly satanic nature of bush and his family..

Barbara bush complained to Diane Sawyer on 3/18/03 bout her beautiful mind not worrying bout US casualties in Iraq.

the nazis were into occult and tried to establish christian connections to the occult..all to consolidate their power...

I am a Catholic and the christain right or evangelicals or whatever they call themselves do not speak for me..{nor do Catholic hierarchy.but I do respect this Pope who forgave his would be assassin}

[Extend a Hand]

7. I looked at that thread

The OP made an assumption that I, as a christian, would be insulted because he/she as an atheist thought that my religious beliefs were fairy tales. I'm not insulted and I can't see any point in responding to posts that do not apply. From his phrasing, "How can we ever communicate...", it seemed to me like the OP wanted to argue with those that were "insulted" and a number were happy to accomodate.

I didn't see any posts in that thread that I would characterize as a "cry of the suffering."

FWIW, I am a Christian married to an aetheist. He is one of the most moral people that I know. He doesn't understand my faith and believes that all religions are "fairy tales."

His views on my religion don't insult me or hamper our communication in other areas. He indulges what he considers to be "my fantasy" in this area and there are other topics where I indulge what I believe to be "his fantasies."

Some folks just get a kick out of arguing.

[tuvor]

8. Welcome to DU, sad_one!

:hi:

[Extend a Hand]

9. Hi tuvor

Thanks for the welcome. I saw your tentmaker.org post in that other thread. I was so happy when I found that site because it so closely reflected what I believed.

[tuvor]

10. I'm glad to hear that.

I just started including the link to that site where it seems it might be appropriate. You never know who might benefit from it.

See ya 'round!

[Old and In the Way]

11. Welcome aboard!

"Some folks just get a kick out of arguing." Hard to believe that happens here. :-)

I'm a practicing ex-Catholic, myself. I have absolutely no problems with anyone's search for meaning in whatever way he/she can find it in this increasingly insane world.

But I'd like to see it remain in the houses of worship and in the home where it rightfully belongs. We've seen what happens when Religion drives politics (I'm thinking the ME here) and it wouldn't take a lot to envision the Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertson's, and the Rev. Moons from turning this country into a theocratic state....we should all be fighting this brand of religious fascism.

[Frumious B]

12. Some thoughts

Christians are a third of the planet's population. The "Religious Right" represents maybe a third of American Christians. Even a relative mathematical dimwit like myself can see the absurdity in claiming that this small minority represents the whole of Christianity. The problem is that most of us aren't media whores, aren't interested in seeking out attention and publicity, proclaiming our "righteousness" to the world or anything like that. We're just struggling to get on with it and get through it, day by day.

The problem is that these "Religious Right" dimwits have a shitload of money and, for reasons that are debatable, they also have the media's ear at the moment. I still remember when the only time you ever heard about the "Religious Right" was when they found some new Satanic message from playing a rock and roll album backwards. I think their recent actions definitely demand a response, not just from the so called "Religious Left", but from normal, everyday people who just want to go about their their business and quietly practice their faith with class and dignity. However, I think that there is a danger in focusing too much on the Religious Right because they are pawns. They are not the ones pulling the strings. If you nail Darth Vader but let the Emperor get away then you haven't won Jacques Merde.

[dryan]

13. My 2 cents...

when you get to religion and politics you are at the core of what people believe. I have some issues with some of the postings on DU because many of them are so over-the-top with bile against Christianity - if these same remarks were made against Jews, Buddhists, Moslems, or Hindus what would people say?

[dryan]

14. A case in point....

somewhere I saw on another DU thread a photo of Hitler coming out of a church. Anyone that knows anything about Hitler's life knows that he was an atheist. He was baptized a Catholic but hated Catholics as much as he hated Jews. Many many priests, nuns, and Catholic lay people were killed by the Nazis. But why did the poster have to put that particular photo on their message?

[trotsky]

16. Um, hold on a sec...

Anyone that knows anything about Hitler's life knows that he was an atheist.

That's wrong.

"For their interests (the Church's) cannot fail to coincide with ours (the National Socialists) alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life" -- speech, August 1934.

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -- speech, October 1933.

You can try to make an argument that Hitler wasn't a "real" Christian, but one thing you CANNOT say is that he was an atheist.

[dryan]

17. He was talking about...

the Bolshevik. Don't try to make him a "christian".

[trotsky]

18. I'm not.

I'm just pointing out that he wasn't an atheist. Can you accept that?

[dryan]

19. What do you consider him then?

[trotsky]

20. I'll tell you, but first...

I'd like you to admit he wasn't an atheist.

[dryan]

21. You are trying to make me say...

that Hitler was a Christian. He wasn't. And by the way, I had both Jewish and Chrisian relatives that died during the Holocaust.

[trotsky]

22. No, I'm not asking you to say that.

I'm asking you to admit that he *wasn't* an atheist. That's all.

[trotsky]

23. I promise you, this isn't a "trap" or anything like that.

It's possible for someone to not be an atheist OR a Christian, right? It's not one or the other, is it?

You seemed so confident that Hitler was an atheist, when the facts clearly indicate otherwise. I'd just like to make sure you don't keep repeating a falsehood.

[Old and In the Way]

25. He worshipped something.

Whatever christian beliefs he may have started out with (I think he was an alterboy), morphed into something else entirely by the time he reached the zenith of his insanity.

He reminds me of Bush in this regards. No one really knows what this guy believes, but he gets good PR on being a "religious man"; yet there's is very little in his personal life or his public life or his agenda that would convey this reality. I suspect Hitler was considered a good religious man, too, before the reality caught up with him.

What I do find interesting is that the authoritarian nature of organized religion, particularly the rigid hierarchies of Roman Catholicism at this time in history, probably helped to condition the mindset of Germans to accept someone like Adolph to lead them back to the glory days of pre WW1 Germany.

[trotsky]

27. Hitler was deluded, basically.

He viewed Jesus as an Aryan who was fighting against Jews. So in that twisted sense, he was a Christian. (I.e., follower of Christ) He just had a very non-traditional opinion of what Jesus was all about.

Much of what people think is Hitler's anti-Christian talk (coming from the "Table Talk" book) was edited by his Catholic-hating associate. In all that text, Hitler never does renounce HIS Christianity, or Jesus, but he does have negative comments about Christianity (i.e., "organized"). Hitler believed that Paul had corrupted Jesus' teaching, in that Paul was doing a "good" thing by fighting the Jews, but felt Paul wrongly chose to attack Jewish capitalism instead of Judaism itself.

He got very annoyed that the early church was communist, being a rabid anti-communist himself.

[onager]

32. Hitler said a lot of nice things about Islam, too.

He thought it was more of a "warrior religion" than Xianity. Once he wished aloud that Charles Martel hadn't stopped the Muslims at Tours, and that Islam had conquered Germany.

History geeks like me will remember the SS-Division "Hundschar," which was made up exclusively of Bosnian Muslims. They wore a red fez decorated with the SS skull-and-crossbones badge.

For anyone interested in Hitler's religious ideas, one of the best books is Robert Waite's The Psychopathic God. The book came out of the WWII project to gather a team of head-shrinkers and try to figure out Hitler's bizarre mental map.

Anyone who thinks Hitler was an atheist, at least as that term is generally used, certainly hasn't read much about him.

[aneerkoinos]

30. Bivalent logics

Is the most harmfull, destructive religion there is.

To engage an dialogue we must drop bivalence and accept middle way, qualified, context dependent truths, as this is the very nature of the medium we use in debates and dialogues; the nature of language.

[aneerkoinos]

24. Religion and politics

I certainly do get a kick out of arguing. One of my numerous addictions.

Religion or spirituality is in the middle between private and public, as it puts those divisions in question. True religion is not about truths that can be expressed in words, but deeds of heart.

In that sense, I don't buy into the "my religion is my private business" as long as we deel with the linguistic sphere. No, any linguistic ("dogmatic") aspects of religion very much need to stay in the public and be refuted by those with wisdom, in the public, so long that no one anymore is fooled by words.

In this sense, religion and the religious (dogmatic) beliefs of any single person are not private and individualistic, but a matter of the Polis and Dialogue. It's the truth that matters and living together in truth, not privatization of belief- and power systems, all competing in foolishness.


And as for division between state and religion, in the final analysis that is a mere illusion. USA was founded on religion of individualism and capitalistic greed, despite all the good intentions and wisdom of the founding fathers. On the other hand, Tibet, which is one of tho most openly religious states (and by no means faultless), is lead by Incarnate Compassion, HH Dalai Lama, who denounces all forms of violence against the occupiers and wellcomes the socialist ideals of the occupier (forgotten by the occupier, naturally ;)), and the tragedy of Tibet has been a blessing especially to the West, a blessing that would not have happened without the tragedy.


So in essence what I'm trying to say is that dogmatic division between state and religion (pragmatically very sound division) leads to a situation where Fallwells, Robertsons etc. can foam about their religion of hate and greed without religions of love, compassion, socialism and spiritual evolution not challenging their words publicly.

[Old and In the Way]

26. I appreciate the distinction....

I have no problems with people discussing/arguing about the pros and cons of various religious beliefs. But when the discussion is presumed to be "I'm saved, you're not"....that's when my interest in continuing the dialogue ends.

[aneerkoinos]

29. Yeah

I call beliefs paths, which are individual. In that context dialogue is meaningfull, because the path is only here and now. In our profound sameness, none of us is similar.

So if someone says that because my path is the only True Path and those not following the same path are doomed (exzclusive), you can be pretty sure his/hers path will not lead to the One Truth (inclusive). ;)

With such people the question that opens and remains is HOW to get them engaged in a dialogue (dialogue, not a debate) instead of abandoning them to their exclusive dogmas...

[YankeyMCC]

15. Thank you!

sad_one "The OP made an assumption that I, as a christian, would be insulted because he/she as an atheist thought that my religious beliefs were fairy tales. I'm not insulted..."

I found myself caught up in thread where someone wants to make the word "myth" an offensive word. And it's nice to be reminded there are clearer thinkers around theist or not.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. keep telling people

about what progressive Christians are doing, have done, and are planning to do. I responded to the original post on the thread you quoted, citing some good things progressive Christians have done, and how they have been posted on DU, often with little or no replies.

I went on to remind people that you can't expect American media to say much of anything about what progressive Christians (and Muslims, for that matter) are saying and doing.

[Name removed]

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