Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing

[Lennon]

Police say coffee shop owners believe lack of faith killed daughter

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080325/WDH0101/80325030

An 11-year-old town of Weston girl died Sunday from a treatable form of diabetes after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical treatment, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said this afternoon.

Vergin said the girl’s parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, believe she died because they apparently didn’t have enough faith. Members of the Neumann family operate Monkey Mo coffee shop in Weston, and a sign on the business' window today said it had been closed "due to a family emergency."

The child’s aunt from California asked police to respond to the home to check on her niece, Madeline Neumann, Vergin said. Neumann then was taken by ambulance to Saint Clare’s Hospital where she was pronounced dead.

[wtmusic]

1. Wonderful.

Lock 'em up.

[islandmkl]

2. faith as a sickness......

too unbelievable to fathom....

[yourout]

3. Unreal..............I still say religous extremism in one form or another will bring the end of ....

mankind.

[Warpy]

4. Too bad the girl's aunt didn't act a little sooner

A court order for treatment could have been obtained.

I'm sure the parents are convinced it was the ride to the hospital that killed their daughter, that another 5 minutes of prayer would have done the trick.

People like that are unreachable. That's why the courts need to step in.

[Maat]

8. Yes ...

I bet that she's regretting that now (maybe just didn't think the child had a serious condition until the parents mentioned something to her about an extreme situation, or something like that).

[againes654]

5. Grrrrr

I am a Christian, that goes to church every Sunday. My step-daughter has diabetes. It is silly to think that praying is the ONLY form of treatment.

I pray for more money, but I still go to work. I wonder if these parents bother to shop for groceries, or do they just sit in the house and pray for their needs to be met with no action on their part.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. I'm sorry, but this is just pure child abuse.

I have no doubt they loved their daughter, but they were atrocious parents.

Religion DOESN'T excuse this kind of neglect.

We wouldn't hesitate to lock someone up who starved their kid to death when they had the money to buy food because they believed if they prayed hard enough manna from heaven would be sent.

Why should we hesitate to do the same to parents who don't try to obtain medical treatment?

[Maat]

7. Oh, dear ... what a tragedy!

Her aunt tried to save her. What an unnecessary death. When I was a social worker, I did take a child into protective custody so that the child would get lifesaving treatment. Dad just wasn't going to believe there was "something wrong with the baby." I did so after the public health nurse that was with me told me that the child would die without treatment. I took the parents and the child to the hospital, but took action after Dad stated that he was going to withdraw the child as soon as I left (Dad didn't know this worker spoke Spanish, apparently - said it to his wife, who just looked horrified and helpless at the time).

Fortunately, the child got treatment, the case went 'Family Maintenance,' and the child was happily placed with Mom and Dad after their willing medical training on the chronic (but not life-threatening with ongoing treatment) condition of their sweet baby girl.

[JuniperLea]

9. I love spiritual people...

But religious people scare the hell out of me.

[DemocratInSoCal]

10. I Prayed For Her

Guess I didn't pray hard enough. Sorry 'bout dat.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. That poor girl. Those poor parents, first for losing their daughter and second for having the

guilt of not having enough faith lying across their shoulders.

Fundamentalism of this sort is so dangerous and so very sad.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. Perhaps if they wore burqas during the prayer sessions.....

yeah, that's the ticket. What a waste of a life.

[rateyes]

13. She didn't die from a lack of faith, Dale and Leilani,

she died from too much of your misguided faith. She died from a lack of insulin that no amount of praying would give her. Your prayers were answered, Dale and Leilani, in the form of an insulin injection. You were just too arrogant to realize it.

And, now, it's too late.

:cry:

[demosincebirth]

14. Prosecute them

[Realityhack]

27. I agree

willful neglect leading to manslaughter at the least. Perhaps first degree murder.
They definitely should have had the other children removed immediately.

I think Dawkin's take on there being no religious children is a good point here. If the parents want to die of curable/treatable ailments fine. But they have no right to force that on their child.

[John Gauger]

15. The problem it seems to me is that they had too much faith.

What does that even mean, "not enough faith?" They believed in Jesus, didn't they? What more is there than that? That's a pretty fucking sadistic and capricious god they believe in. Even if their god was real, it would certainly not be worthy of our worship.

[varkam]

16. Amen.

:puke:

[Liberal Veteran]

17. God heard their prayers and answered them but they were too busy praying to listen.

God probably answered them numerous times from the mouths of doctors and rational people who told them to get the child some treatment.

[John Gauger]

18. Or,

there is no god and those people that tried to help the kid did what they did for their own reasons. I have always found fascinating the concept of a god that makes no difference whether or not he exists. If god is only going to act through material agents, utilizing only natural and non-miraculous forces, what is the difference between that god and a god that does not exist? And I think that's why they were unwilling to say that all the medicine and treatment and stuff was the hand of god and just accept it. They wanted god to prove his existence through miraculous remission of the diabetes. They wanted something that could only have been the hand of god. Otherwise, what is the point of praising him and singing of his grace if it very well could have been something only natural.

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. You remind me of a modern day parable

It was the biggest storm of the century.

A man of faith had managed to escape the rising flood to his roof, where he stood precariously on his chimney. He prayed to God, "O Lord! I have faith in you!"

A small rowboat came by. "Climb in," the occupant said. "I will get you to safety."

"No need," the man replied. "I will put my trust in God."

And the water kept rising. When it reached his ankles, he prayed again. "O Lord! I know that my love for You is not misguided!"

A police speed boat came by. "Climb in," the pilot said. "The rain has started again upriver and the whole valley will be flooded in less than an hour. We need to evacuate!"

"God will keep me safe. Turn your attention to those with no faith."

And the water kept rising. When it reached his knees, he prayed again. "O Lord! You will not let me perish!"

A bit latter, an emergency helicopter flew over head, and a rescue worker came down on a rope with a harnass. "Put this on," the rescuer shouted over the roar of the chopper. "We need to lift you out. A wall of water is roaring this way, if you don't go now you will probably be killed."

"Jesus is my Lord and Savior," the man replied. "And He will see me through."

And while the rescue worker tried to convince the man to put on the harnass, the flood hit. The man was swept off his feet and down into the cold water, never to resurface.

In Heaven, the man is a bit distraught. He tracks down Jesus and asks, "I don't mean to question Your decision, Lord. But why did I have to die? I was a good person, I had faith, I trusted You. Why didn't you save me from the flood?"

Jesus looks him square in the eye and said, "Who the do you think kept sending the boats and helicopter?"

[zonmoy]

19. more parents that abuse their kids in the name of god.

kind of makes sense since god himself is the ultimate abusive parent.

[moggie]

20. Very disturbing

They think she could come back from the dead:

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.

...

The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.

http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/278693

How many kids never see a doctor from ages 3 to 11? What about checkups? Could be long-term neglect there, not a one-off bout of religious madness.

I hope their three other kids are ok. I wouldn't trust these idiots to look after a hamster, let alone children.

[Meshuga]

21. This should be considered at the very least...

...negligent endangerment of a child worthy of imprisonment of the parents and the other children should be taken away by child services. There is something really wrong if nothing is done about this. Otherwise, where do we draw the line on what people can get away with just because the harm that they caused has been done in the name of their faith?

[dmallind]

22. Where's the guy who says religion is not a motivating factor?

And that all bad things done in the name of religion are really about power and money.

I think this one punctures that idea. No power or money here.

It's a single anecdote of course but one that has been repeated and even legally challenged - but the courts have ruled that religious freedom is more important than making what 99.9% of us would call rational medical decisions. Paradoxically I agree - not because I like things like this but because if making decisions the majority think are normal can override religious freedom, anybody who isn't of the majority religion can conceivably be forced to make decisions they favor about medical options and we can all see where that could lead.

[trotsky]

24. Yup, exactly.

This girl is dead because of RELIGION. There is no other factor.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. Free-lance fundamentalism at work

:eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

26. Their right to do that, so it's their right to suffer the consequences.

I'm sorry, but a kid died over this. They were entirely within their rights to choose prayer and prayer alone, but then they got to suffer the consequences.

People who believe like this frustrate me. They believe that God calls pastors and missionaries but not doctors, social workers, or psychiatrists. That makes no sense to me. Look at all the resources they had! They had state health care in case they couldn't afford the prescriptions and monitors, they had counsellors to help them understand it, they had doctors to keep track of their daughter's numbers and overall health--and they turned their back on all of that, preferring to use a method shown to fail. How many children used to die before insulin and antibiotics? They chose to try that tack instead of using what was available to keep their daughter healthy.

It wasn't their faith that wasn't strong enough, it was their sense of history and self-preservation.

[mariema]

28. WI has law that could shield these parents from prosecution

I never knew that until I read this:

"The death early this week of a young Wisconsin girl from a treatable form of diabetes, whose parents prayed over her rather than seek medical help, could re-ignite a debate over a state law that essentially shields such activity from criminal prosecution."

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=22061

Another article from same source:
http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=22053

I don't even remember when this law was passed. I am just flabbergasted that there was no outcry about it. Essentially, WI is saying it is ok to let your child die as long as you pray over them?

[varkam]

29. Wow. That's a terrible law.

As the article notes, the law probably got there as a result of lobbying efforts by Christian Scientists. What the article did not note, though, is that Christian Scientists are a bunch of seriously deluded folks who have and will continue to kill their children.

Also, the article noted that several other states have since repealed such laws - why not WI?

[smoogatz]

32. Because we have a wingnut majority in the State Assembly.

We're working on whittling that majority away—as of '06 we now have a slim Dem majority in the State Senate—but they're pretty entrenched as you can imagine. Wisconsin's basically a purple state—lots of very conservative people in the rural parts of the state, counter-balanced (sort of) by the leftier urban populations in Milwaukee and Madison. We also have a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage AND civil unions, passed by a landslide in '06 as the wingnuts were being voted out of the Senate. That's how conflicted things are right now in WI.

[mariema]

33. I hope this restarts the debate about the law

Maybe something worthwhile could come about because of this tragedy.

[Realityhack]

35. Is that law legal under your state constitution? under the US constitution?

Seems to me this should be premeditated murder.

[mariema]

38. I haven't heard that it has been seriously challenged. eom

[Georgie_92]

30. What a preventable tragedy. So very sad.

[Realityhack]

34. not sad. Criminal.

flat out murder.

[smoogatz]

31. Criminal neglect.

Seems pretty clear-cut. It ought to be astounding that any parent could make his/her kid a test case for some dumbass magical thinking experiment, but this shit happens all the time. It's incredibly savage; basically one step away from sacrificing virgins to the thunder god, or whatever.

[moggie]

36. Here's another one

A 15-month-old infant Oregon infant died of an easily treatable illness because her parents prayed for her instead of getting antibiotics. They are not alone:

The Worthingtons are members of the Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City, that has a history of shunning medical care in favor of faith healing.

A decade ago the church received national attention after KATU reported that the state medical examiner believed approximately 20 children whose parents belonged to the church, had died from untreated illnesses that were curable.

(useless link removed)

After that story broke, the Oregon state legislature changed the law to bar defendants, in most cases, from claiming their religious beliefs prevented them from seeking medical help.

"Ten years ago I couldn't express my feelings for what was going on out there, but I can now," said Mark Hass, who as a KATU reporter worked on the story and is now a state senator. "This is child abuse. Pure and simple. There is no other way to say it."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4550151&page=1

If at least 20 kids frome one church have died unnecessarily, it makes you wonder how many nationwide die or are permanently harmed because their parents prefer fantasy to pills.

[raccoon]

37. This reminds me of a TV movie I saw once.

PROMISED A MIRACLE

19 May 1988 (USA)

Based on a true story of an American couple who try to heal their diabetic son through spiritual, rather than medical means.


http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0095917/

What a shame this child had to die.