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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Mar-27-08 11:16 PM Original message |
If this is the best theological reasoning proponents of Jesus's historicity have to offer... |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Mar-27-08 11:29 PM Response to Original message |
1. ? |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Mar-27-08 11:32 PM Response to Reply #1 |
2. I'm opposed to people arguing he was based on a historic figure |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Mar-27-08 11:51 PM Response to Reply #2 |
4. Everything I've ever read about the Jesus Seminar says they |
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drmeow (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Mar-27-08 11:53 PM Response to Reply #2 |
5. I believe that there is some |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:05 AM Response to Reply #5 |
6. Yep. Those are some of the probable facts the Jesus Seminar identified. nt |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:12 AM Response to Reply #5 |
8. Where is that evidence you're talking about? |
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drmeow (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:18 AM Response to Reply #8 |
9. I'm not a historical scholar |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:42 AM Response to Reply #9 |
11. Here's a conservative Christian scholar, if you will, on the census |
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More Than A Feeling (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 04:11 AM Response to Reply #8 |
13. 70 AD for the earliest of Paul's writings? |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 08:46 AM Response to Reply #13 |
15. I may be confusing Paul's dates with the dates for the earliest gospel |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 08:15 AM Response to Reply #8 |
14. Re that question, and with my personal caveat against deification/blasphemy: |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 10:47 AM Response to Reply #14 |
16. I don't understand your post. |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:49 PM Response to Reply #16 |
20. I'm constructing an analogy for asking questions about things like the Bible. |
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cyborg_jim (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Mar-29-08 07:50 AM Response to Reply #20 |
31. S(S(S(S(S(Z))))) |
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Donald Ian Rankin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-03-08 05:27 PM Response to Reply #2 |
47. Christianity must have been founded, therefore "Jesus" existed, for some value of "Jesus". |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-06-08 10:20 AM Response to Reply #47 |
57. Couldn't Paul be said to have founded Christianity? |
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drmeow (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Mar-27-08 11:45 PM Response to Original message |
3. Some things I can address (former Catholic) |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:09 AM Response to Original message |
7. The method has an ancient pedigree as a legal argument in favor of certain testimony: |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 11:06 AM Response to Reply #7 |
17. How does John's Baptism of Jesus serve the text? |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 05:41 PM Response to Reply #17 |
24. There are multiple embarrassments, many of a similar nature, some of which cannot possibly |
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John Gauger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 09:13 PM Response to Reply #24 |
27. Yes, but if it serves some other purpose, |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 10:58 PM Response to Reply #27 |
29. We'll just go around in pointless circle because we're not even really discussing the same subject: |
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John Gauger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Mar-29-08 10:48 AM Response to Reply #29 |
33. Wow. |
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On the Road (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:21 AM Response to Original message |
10. The Criterion of Embarrassment is Extremely Powerful |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 02:46 PM Response to Reply #10 |
23. You state with certainty that those were Jesus's grandnephews |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Mar-31-08 06:51 AM Response to Reply #10 |
43. ... |
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On the Road (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-03-08 01:39 PM Response to Reply #43 |
44. Quite the Contrary |
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Meshuga (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-03-08 03:01 PM Response to Reply #44 |
45. Toledoth Yeshu was written somewhere between the 9th and 10th century. |
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On the Road (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-03-08 04:28 PM Response to Reply #45 |
46. The Talmud and Other Early Jewish Sources May Not be Accurate |
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Meshuga (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Apr-03-08 09:08 PM Response to Reply #46 |
48. The Talmud may not even be discussing Jesus in the first place |
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On the Road (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-05-08 12:15 AM Response to Reply #48 |
53. Well If You Don't Accept a Contemporary |
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Meshuga (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Apr-05-08 07:27 AM Response to Reply #53 |
54. The authenticity of any mention of Jesus by Josephus is likely is questionable |
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On the Road (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-06-08 12:54 AM Response to Reply #54 |
55. If You Are Going to Make a Compelling Argument Like This |
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Meshuga (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-06-08 08:31 AM Response to Reply #55 |
56. I am not making a compelling argument for anything |
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jjray7 (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Apr-06-08 03:59 PM Response to Reply #45 |
58. talmud and Jesus |
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aquart (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:59 AM Response to Original message |
12. If you want to know what happened with Jesus... |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 11:35 AM Response to Reply #12 |
18. Compare Jesus fact fuzziness with Elvis and Diana |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 01:02 PM Response to Reply #18 |
21. Could it be that given the amount of empirical evidence of Elvis and Diana, |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 12:15 PM Response to Original message |
19. I spent several years visiting villages in rural South Africa gathering oral history |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 01:09 PM Response to Reply #19 |
22. Your line of inquiry is very interesting, but I don't think that the OP is saying |
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John Gauger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 10:21 PM Response to Reply #19 |
28. That's all anecdotal. |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Mar-29-08 07:19 AM Response to Reply #28 |
30. Not it isn't. It's called historical methodology. |
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Igel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 08:09 PM Response to Original message |
25. There are a number of heuristics to help navigate the |
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John Gauger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Mar-28-08 08:48 PM Response to Original message |
26. You are quite right. |
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crawfish (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Mar-30-08 01:37 PM Response to Reply #26 |
38. Jesus' baptism... |
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Meshuga (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Mar-29-08 08:30 AM Response to Original message |
32. The criteria is there to help with the "belief" that there was a historical Jesus |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Mar-29-08 10:50 AM Response to Reply #32 |
34. Except that the overwhelming majority of historians of that era |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Mar-29-08 03:15 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. I am not arguing that Jesus is a figment of imagination. I am arguing that he is myth. |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Mar-30-08 06:44 AM Response to Reply #35 |
36. One can only argue "no evidence" if one dismisses the gospels |
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Meshuga (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Mar-30-08 08:17 AM Response to Reply #36 |
37. One can also say that |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Mar-30-08 02:35 PM Response to Reply #37 |
40. I'll agree with you on one thing |
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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Mar-30-08 05:43 PM Response to Reply #36 |
41. I do dismiss the Gospels as works of history. |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Mar-31-08 06:40 AM Response to Reply #41 |
42. I certainly agree that the Gospels are not "works of history" |
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crawfish (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Mar-30-08 01:44 PM Response to Original message |
39. That's actually a fairly good method |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-04-08 02:03 AM Response to Original message |
49. Oh my God. It's a story, it's a tradition, it's a faith. |
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and-justice-for-all (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-04-08 03:52 AM Response to Original message |
50. It can only be taken on faith... |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-04-08 10:19 AM Response to Reply #50 |
51. It can only "be taken on faith" that our lives have any meaning at all. |
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and-justice-for-all (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Apr-04-08 07:03 PM Response to Reply #51 |
52. Correct... |
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