Please do not ask me to be tolerant or accept Fundamentalists

[Hugabear]

I've seen a few posts here and there on DU taking exception to people saying bad things about evangelical fundies, saying that we should be tolerant of all religions. Sorry, but I cannot do that. I grew up in a fundamentalist household, and I am very familiar with the damage it can cause people. I have seen people harassed and brought to tears for the sin of 'backsliding'. Fundamentalism is quite different from most religions. It is based on tight control and fear. It demands strict adherence to the Bible, with the threat of Hell constantly held over you like the Sword of Damocles.

Fundamentalism is what demands that creationism be taught in science classes, that mankind coexisted with dinosaurs. There are many fundamentalists who still believe that the Earth is the literal center of the universe. Fundamentalism is what makes it okay for people to discriminate against homosexuals, and look the other way when violence is perpetrated against them. Fundamentalism is what helps keep racism alive in some areas. I still remember being taught that interracial dating was a sin, because the Bible says "be not unequally yoked" - the inference that blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc are somehow inferior.

Most Christian denominations seem content to live their own lives without interference with society. Not so with fundamentalism. Fundamentalism seeks to enforce its own brand of morality upon everyone else. How often do you hear fundies proclaim that the US was established as a "Judeo-Christian" nation, and that we should base our laws on Judeo-Christian values?

Furthermore, to be a fundamentalist, you have to completely abandon all reason and logic. If you believe that the Earth is only 6000 years old, sorry, but you're an idiot. If you believe that man and dinosaurs lived together, you're an idiot. I've actually heard some pastors teach that dinosaurs never even existed, that God simply planted the fossils into the ground to confuse people. WTF? One the one hand, they want us to believe that God loves everyone and wants us all to be saved, but then God goes and deliberately tries to fuck with people like this?

[RedShoes]

1. We all have our limits.

But try to realize that McCain practically IS a fundamentalist.

[DailyGrind51]

2. Hey, I'm a Catholic and have had problems with both Evangelicals and Athiests

[Dogtown]

5. Hey, I'm an atheist

And I have a problem with evangelicals and Catholics.

Oh, wait: aren't they the same thing?

[DailyGrind51]

15. No, the Evangelicals believe that neither of us are "saved"!

I just believe I don't need to be "born again", one birth being traumatic enough for anyone!

[Dogtown]

18. The enemy of my enemy...

:hi:

[YOY]

22. No.

Not in the least. Unless you only see the creepy Da Vinci Code complaining 10% of Catholics as the main voice.

Catholics accept science...even the Fundy Catholics. I've only heard of one who pushed the Creationist BS and my VERY Catholic LIBERAL mother told her "You know, there's this Baptist Church was down the road..."

So says this burnt out Catholic/Agnostic.

[Dogtown]

40. *Mostly* just messing about

There is a percentage of Catholics, perhaps insignificant, that qualifies unabashedly as evangelical, however.

"Catholics" actually span so much of the spiritual spectrum as to be unquantifiable. I suspect many that even attend ceremonies other than Midnight Mass do so for social and tradition reasons rather than any real belief.


I've known many that only become "fervent" when they are very uncomfortable.



All that said, Catholic girls use to be *lots* of fun!

[eridani]

43. Catholics run the full spectrum from reactionary to progressive

I never got any crap when I wrote papers on evolution in a Catholic high school. Some of my fundie protestant neighbors had REALLY strange ideas about nuns, as well as being cracked on the subject of evolution.

[YOY]

44. Tell that to some folks around here...

I get the idea some DUers think all Catholics are second to fundies in the RW arena. Granted the single issue Abortion voters try to justify their vote by attempting to follow suite on the rest of the "Conservative Philosophy" but just end up being the most hypocritical Catholics in the church.

Meh...I've lost my faith. I just get disgusted by folks who think losing their faith and hating their former faith are not mutually inclusive.

[DailyGrind51]

49. Bill Press, Thom Hartmann, and Stephanie MIller are all baptized Catholics,

even though they may no longer practice.

[DailyGrind51]

50. John Paul II said that there was no conflict between evolution and faith.

One of the most controversial books promoting the concept of evolution, since "Origin of Species" was written by Jesuit Pierre Tielhard de Chardin titled, "The Phenomenon of Man".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

3. Do you want them to be tolerant and accept you?

If not, fair enough.

[Cassandra]

11. Funamentalists are not psychologically predisposed...

to tolerate other's points of view. It's not really a matter of what we want but what they are able to provide.

[DailyGrind51]

19. Jimmy's Swaggert and Baker tried to put the "fun" back in Christian fundamentalism,

and look what happened to them!

[Growler]

28. agreed.

[jazzjunkysue]

55. That's the point: Fundies are hateful. No other religion can be described that simply.

Of course, there are individuals of all persuasions who are hateful, but only fundies, of all stripes, are deliberately, intentionally, systematically, hateful. Fundies put ideology above compassion. The details are irrelevant. So, if you personally hold a few values in common with fundies, that's not an indictment of you.

Fundamentalism is the part that urges violence against people for irrational reasons. The particular dogma is simply an excuse for aggression and hostility.

It is the systematic, organized smokescreen for self-hatred and therefore, projection and attack.

The fact that they wave global symbols like the cross and the bible and the Koran around during their rampages only serves to confuse you into questioning your own beliefs. But these people would organize in some way to solidify their illusion of power over others, regardless of which continent bore them or which religion comprised their surroundings.

[Hugabear]

14. Doesn't matter what I want

With fundamentalists, their way is the ONLY way. Everyone else is doomed to hell. They would no more accept a moderate Christian than they would a Mormon, Wiccan, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist.

[eShirl]

20. that doesn't work with fundamentalists

[backscatter712]

25. They're not going to be tolerant. Why should I?

They've abandoned all reason and logic and concluded the big guy in the sky wants them to shove their religion down our throats.

They won't respect our views, so why should I respect them?

[lolly]

38. Do I want the hungry alligator not to eat me?

Of course I do. But he will, if I don't watch out for him.

It would be totally peachy kean if fundies respected me and refrained from trying to infringe on my rights and ruin my country.

But they don't, they won't. They will use any power they can get to force me to live by their rules. They have shown that repeatedly.


So the fact that I may want them to accept me is as irrelevant as me wanting the sun to set in the east. It's not gonna happen, so I should plan my day around the sun setting in the west.

[Raksha]

41. WTF is that supposed to mean?

Re Do you want them to be tolerant and accept you?

Fundamentalists are the original "my way or the highway" people. Even their definition of religious freedom isn't the same as ours. To them, religious freedom means their "God-given right" (literally!) to impose their beliefs on everyone else.

WHEN they are tolerant of me and and accept me (by MY standards, not theirs!) then maybe I'll think about returning the compliment. But since that's never going to happen, I'm not even going to pretend to accept them.

[RainDog]

42. the point is that THEY DO NOT accept others' povs

and not only do they not accept others' have a right to another pov, they try to make YOUR LIFE suffer because of their pov -

for instance - birth control and humanitarian aid for Africa. Our govt. doesn't do the right thing b/c of fundies here who want to press their beliefs on foreign policy.

for instance - trying to teach myth as science.. and basically creating a large subsection of the U.S. population that is totally brainwashed and ignorant about biological science.

for instance- trying to make it legal to deny women access to birth control, not just abortion, because they don't like it if females don't want to get preggers.

And my problem is not limited to American protestant fundies - I have this same issue with Islamic fundies, or Hindu fundies...

And since they want to treat females as second class citizens in this nation, then, no, I DO NOT have to accept them. I do not have to accept that they want to take away my rights in this nation. They do this repeatedly on a variety of issues. Frankly, fundies are my political enemies when they are involved in politics. It is when they try to insert their religious idiocy into public life that we all have a problem - a constitutional problem, in fact.

[izquierdista]

4. They like "Judeo-Christian"

Makes them sound broad minded. After they get you to agree with their "Judeo-Christian" values, they go out and paint a swastika on a Judeo temple so you know which part of "Judeo-Christian" is important.

[Hugabear]

7. Exactly

Or they go and put out something like the "Passion" movie.

[closeupready]

10. lol

:rofl:

[Dogtown]

6. Evangelicals are the enemy

of free-thinking.

[davidinalameda]

51. do you even know what an evangelical is?

doubtful that you do

[closeupready]

8. You're absolutely right. Individuals have NO responsbility to 'tolerate' hatemongers, period.

The state may be restricted from interfering, but individuals are certainly not, and I don't want to hear that crap, anywhere, anytime, anyhow.

Do you realize they actually DEFEND hate? That if you hate what we think God hates, then your hate is 'good'. If you go so far as to say that 'hate is good', you are disgusting and promoting evil.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

9. Whatever shape it takes,

if your belief is that some man up in the sky sees everything you do, knows what you're thinking, and will ultimately decide, after you die, whether you spend eternity in some paradise or some hell, well, then, I honestly have no reason to respect your beliefs, simply because I think your beliefs are insane. You believe in fairy tales and it's dressed up as "faith," when I think it's simply delusional.

You, as well, are free to loathe me because I think you're goofy. Fair is fair.

But you're still nuts.

[cobalt1999]

12. "Fundamentalism seeks to enforce its own brand of morality upon everyone else"

That to me is the key point and which is why I put PETA in that same group.

If someone has a belief and a moral code and lives it fine. As soon as they start thinking they know better than everyone else and they need to educate (which is code for convert) other, they cross the line.

I have no tolerance for anyone trying to push their personal moral code on me.

[Democrats_win]

13. It's not Fundamentalists, it's Fundamentalists who hypocritically get involved in politics.

And, it's worse than them just hypocritically getting involved in politics. It's the way they do it. They're thumbing their noses at America while they do it. There is little question that their actions violate the spirit of America's laws but also the spirit of God's laws.

Further, they support liars like McCain. They are not, and never have been real Christians. In fact Jesus warned of people like these in his Sermon on the Mount. He describes what they'll say to him: did we not prophesize in your name? They'll say. Then he'll tell them: get away from my you workers of lawlessness! (Doesn't this describe these people perfectly?)

[Hugabear]

16. Fundamentalists are modern day Pharisees and Sadducees

They set themselves up on a pedestal, dictate morality to everyone else, all the while forgetting what the real message should be - loving thy neighbor as thyself, and letting God do the judging, not themselves.

[Silent3]

17. Depends what you mean by "tolerate".

To the extent that I believe everyone has the right to believe and worship as they choose, I have tolerance for fundamentalists.

To the extent that fundamentalists should be granted the same Constitutional rights as everyone else, not be discriminated against in housing or employment, I have tolerance for fundamentalists.

This is what I'd call "civil tolerance", the kind of tolerance required for freedom in a civil society. My tolerance ends there.

I feel no obligation to "tolerate" fundamentalism if that means never saying an ill word about it, if that means stifling my own freedom of speech because someone might be offended by my criticism of their beliefs, if that means letting my own freedoms be trampled on by religious believers who seek to use the power of the state to further their religious causes where no valid secular interest for government involvement exists.

Tolerance for me does not extend to allowing religious believers to treat their children as private property, ignoring rights and protections children should have beyond what parents may willingly grant them.

My tolerance does not extend to making accommodations for religious belief which go beyond mere accommodation to become facilitation and the granting of special privileges.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

34. I totally agree with your post -

Fundys' definition of tolerance means if you disagree with them, you are being intolerant and not allowing THEM to have freedom of religion. I;ve never met a nice fundamentalist.

[SpookyCat]

52. Very well said! Thank you.

[azureblue]

21. kiss

keep it simple:
your religious beliefs end at your nose.
no one has the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else.
And religion is not the source of morality; you do not have to belong to a religion or a church, to find enlightement, "god", nirvana, etc.,
oh yeah, and until proven other wise, nobody's religion is superior to another's and that includes the "My God is Better than your God" meme..

[Sal Minella]

23. Nicely done. nt

[Philosoraptor]

24. Thank you.

[Growler]

26. Excellent post!!

I totally agree with you.

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. Very difficult to respect a religion that requires their way, or the highway.

That kind of intolerance leads to war, especially when they plan on using that influence to reward those who think like them, and punish those who don't. When people like that control your livelihood, then they are a threat to the public welfare and Constitutional rights should not be higher for them, than anybody that they're targeting.

[Growler]

29. toddler starved to death....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1043972/Toddler-starved-death-religious-cult-wouldnt-say-amen.html

[theboss]

30. A religion based on control and fear? I never heard of such a thing.

I just spent a weekend dealing with my fiancee's wedding shower. You ever get 50 women who all went to Catholic School in a room together?

If we could have channeled the guilt, fear, and anger...we could have powered Philadelphia for a weekend.

[MrCoffee]

31. Please be tolerant and accept Fundamentalists

Plesae.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

35. I, for one, will do that after they accept others' views - i.e., when Hell freezes over.

(if there is a Hell)

[MrCoffee]

45. I'll pray for you.

[frebrd]

46. "When Hell freezes over...If there is a hell"

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[SpookyCat]

53. I searched in vain for the sarcasm tag...

Really? Why? Will I be afforded the same courtesy? Because I really don't think so.

[CampDem]

32. Hi Paint it~great rant.

There is an online book called The Authoritarian written by Canadian researcher Dr Altemeyer. He has studied American right wing fundamentalism for many years.

He has conducted psychological/social experiments with instruments he has finely tuned over the years and in this book he presents his findings. He defines them as Authoritarian followers and leaders. He looks at ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, and the rigid compartmentalization that result from this worldview.

First he looks at how the authoritarian followers are highly compliant and submit to authority figures. Unless they get out of the fundie environment (attend a secular institution or meet new non-fundie friends) they develop measurable psychological traits to cope with the dissonance they feel from internalizing their fundie parents values. He contrast this with a moderate or liberal upbringing and presents data to show the differences. For me, reading this section left me feeling very sorry for them.

For the section about authoritarian leaders he splits them into 2 power hungry groups, one sharing many of the followers psychological traits while the other doesn't. It is a chilling read.

This book is available online and though it is long, I really enjoyed it.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

:hi:

[KG]

33. Please do not ask me to be tolerant or accept religion. period.

[MJW]

36. fundamentalists of any stripe

are close minded bigots who deserve not one iota of respect

I have a family full of them --I know what I am talking about

[LonelyLRLiberal]

37. Excellent explanation of why fundamentalists should never be given power.

Thanks for posting this thoughtful comment.

[carlyhippy]

39. the god I would worship would not like the fundamentalist way of religion

he would want people to just chill out and be tolerant and accepting. I hope that god is truly like this, and he just shakes his head and rolls his eyes when he follows the fundies.

[PurgedVoter]

47. I always considered myself a fundamentalist

And I pretty much agree with you. But then, Jimmy Carter is a fundamentalist, and he is my hero. I always thought of a Fundamentalist as someone who actually reads the Bible and tries to figure out what it is saying. That is what Fundamentalists think makes the difference in their faith. But then anyone who reads what Jesus said, and comes up with a conservative view, is a loony. Anyone who believes in Biblical inerrancy has not read the Bible with comprehension.

I guess I need to grow up and realize that Fundamentalists are not people who examine the fundamentals of their faith. Fundamentalists are what they are, across the world, across history and across cultures and faiths. An occasional fundamentalist really does look at the history and wisdom of their ancestors. The rest just use it for window dressing as they enjoy abusing others and claiming authority.

The 'Fundamentalism' stance has been used by snake oil salesmen since the beginning of time to manipulate and loot others. Generally it is used like 'patriotism' is. A lie to justify the exact opposite of what the meaning of the concept is. In small tribes, fundamentalism is part of the rot on real traditional values. In Islam, fundamentalism is a rot on their faith. Fundamentalism is pretty much the opposite of Christianity.

'Fundamentalism' is what Jesus spoke out against in his day. And fundamentalism is what killed him. Very interesting when you compare it to knowledge of the faith, Jesus came out as pretty well researched. The outcome was preordained, Fundamentalists hate people who are compassionate or liberal.

Real fundamentalism, I always believed, would put compassion and others first, first. Not second, third or off the table. So do 'Fundamentalists' or Conservatives have a clue about their faith? No, they killed Jesus.

[jazzjunkysue]

56. "Anyone who believes in Biblical inerrancy has not read the Bible with comprehension. "

Absolutely incredible statement.

This is why I love DU. :hug:

[14thColony]

48. Amen Brother Black

I too grew up in a hardcore fundamentalist Southern Baptist household. Fundamentalism of the ilk you speak of here, and the type I too grew up with, is a completely exclusionary abberation of Christianity that rejects tolerance of any type and considers reason and logic to be mental defects at best and signs of Satanic influence at worst. They have truely created God in their own image.

[stillcool]

54. People are people

It is not fundamentalists that disturb me as much as ordinary self-righteous, arrogant, American assholes that think they are better than anyone else. At least true Jesus freaks have an excuse. They are insane.

[ZombieHorde]

57. Please be tolerant or accept Fundamentalists.

[zonmoy]

58. Grew up in a similar background.

got out then forced back in by my families bullying. gave me a real negative view of god. (now a malthiest) I know way too much of the evil of the fundamentalist mindset due to the fact that I have to deal with my fundamentalist family quite a lot.

[hyphenate]

59. I've seen first hand

what being a fundie can do to someone--selfless becomes selfishness, thoughtful becomes thoughtless, intelligent becomes blind stupidity.

The Fundamentalist mindset here in the United States is evil incarnate, made up with a painted on smile and filled with raging hatred, hypocrisy and intolerance. There is little on earth to compare it to in terms of extremity and the darkest of all that is unholy. Just a creepy feeling that somehow the devil has slapped you in the face and laughed about it with your enemies.

Anyone who preaches fundamentalism is either very stupid or very devious, and I would trust the devil himself before I trusted anyone who proclaimed they were fundies.

[Az]

60. It doesn't have to be what a person believes that causes the problem

Its what they presume about others based on what they believe that causes dissension. If a person believes that Jesus is their savior and is one with God .... fine... more power to them. I might wish that they believed more like me but I can accept someone believing such things. But if a person believes I am immoral or evil because I do not believe the things that they do then we have a problem. Worse, such thinking is destructive to society. It sets people into camps of opposition.