I went to my first Methodist service (UMC)

[aikoaiko]

I was raised Catholic, but by the age of 17 I stopped going and by the age of 25 become an atheist. I haven't really considered any spiritual or religious matters for myself much since then.

But now I am a father. We live in the same city (medium city in the deep south) that my darling wife grow up in and she wants to recreate the spiritual community for our son that she remembers fondly. So we went to Sunday school (both child and adult) followed by the service. I resisted going as I have no belief in the existence of God and prefer to make omelets on Sunday morning and read DU. Mostly I worry about the whole "not being true to myself" thing and the eventual question of whether or not I believe in God from my son. Nevertheless, I went because its important to my wife and how we raise our son.

I have to admit that I found the experience rather pleasant. Nice folks all around. I saw some of the city leaders and bigwigs from where I work. John Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, landed in what would become our little city when he first came to the "New World" and I can tell the congregation is very proud to be so close to the roots of American Methodism.

There was a whole lot of singing in the service of the old timey religion variety. It was nice. The sermon was about feeding others (especially with love) and to not be greedy. I can see why my wife wanted to go back to her Methodist church.

I expect that their stances on abortion and homosexuality conflict with mine (and my wife's), but if the over all message is good, I can see attending happily in the future. My wife tells me that there is a good chance no one will ever ask me if I believe in God. Its not the Methodist way to confront.

I just thought I share. Before now, I never thought I voluntarily go to church again (other than when I go to Mass with my mother when I visit because it makes her happy).

[Taverner]

1. UMC is usually a pretty liberal church

As for abortion, they leave it up to the person, not the state

And gay marriage, they are mixed - depends on the church. Some Methodist churches will even do gay marriages.

I was Methodist in my first years - long before I became an Atheist

[aikoaiko]

7. I hope I continue to like what I see and hear.

[goclark]

17. I was Episcopal all my life and 5 yrs. ago I joined UMC

It fits, it just fits my liberal beliefs and the way that I think about my religion.

[TechBear_Seattle]

25. Individual congregations vary widely, however

Few Protestant churches are monolithic: there are conservative UCC congregations just as there are liberal Baptist congregations. Case in point: the UMC my mother attends sponsors a ministry of Exodus International.

[Taverner]

26. And there's a SOUTHERN BAPTIST church near us that were big Obama supporters

[Critters2]

30. The difference is that the UCC and Baptists are not centralized

as the UMC is. The UMC has canon law that is strongly anti-gay. The UCC has no law that governs individual congregations.

[Critters2]

29. UMC churches do not do gay marriages. Their canon law is VERY

clear on this. They don't ordain gay clergy nor allow gay marriages to be done by UMC clergy nor even on UMC property. The UMC is blatantly anti-gay.

[riqster]

2. Methodist and Presbyterian churches can be quite pleasant places of worship

...depending on the particular flavor and location. Glad you found a nice one!

I was raised a Presbo ("God's Frozen People") and still attend if it'll make someone happy that I do so. I have yet to be interrogated about my beliefs, as your wife said.

[aikoaiko]

8. I'm glad I found a good one too. I should never have doubted my wife. She's a good person.

And she wouldn't go to church that taught hateful things.

[woodsprite]

13. You would have liked our Presby service this weekend

The minister used Pres. Obama's words from his inaugural speech to drive the message home about being called to service - of all kinds - both religious and community and adding that we don't know what we are capable of accomplishing until we try. She even read the poem that was read at the ceremonies. I'm so glad I go to a pretty liberal church :)

[Blue_In_AK]

3. I grew up as a Methodist.

Chances are they won't even talk about homosexuality or abortion. At least I never heard those topics come up in all my church-going years. The Methodist churches I've been involved with have geerally been pretty laid-back, service-oriented groups, not so much into "scolding" people.

[aikoaiko]

5. Yes, I could see the service orientation evident in much of their activities and rhetoric

It was really very pleasant to be around people who wanted to be cheerful and helpful.

[hlthe2b]

12. ditto....

The emphasis is on community and doing good for the community. I can never recall politics nor hot button political issues being discussed in a Methodist Church. However, the UMC leadership has been staunchly against the Iraq war since the start, having sent Bush several consensus letters on the matter--significant because Bush* claimed to be a member of a Methodist church in Texas...though he certainly didn't get the "born again" stuff from them. ;)

[Cabcere]

4. My parents raised me United Methodist

and my experience with the church is that it's fairly socially liberal. I'm sure this isn't the case at all UM churches, but the ones I have been to have been pretty active in community care and outreach (working with food banks, organizing clothing and book drives, sending care packages to soldiers, etc.). I don't go to church much anymore, but when I was in college I did go on a UN retreat with the Wesley Foundation, and it was pretty cool - big on peace and social justice, not on condemning people to hell or anything like that. I'm glad your experience was similarly positive. :hi:

[aikoaiko]

6. I think I have lazy and just lumped all "Christians" into one category

And it wasn't really a very positive category. Its looks like my mental compartmentalization will have to get more complex.

;)

[Cabcere]

9. It's easy to do sometimes, especially since some of the more vocal/prominent

examples of Christianity aren't exactly positive themselves. ;)

Peace. :hi:

[riqster]

16. A lot has to do with the age of the dogma, in my experience

The older, mainline, less loudly-evangelical Protestant denominations tend to be a lot less hateful.

Also, Presbyterians were among the earliest Protestant denominations, and the first adherents were at risk of being hanged or worse by the Established Church. That history helps to dampen the fanatical impulses that drive, say, CICU, Nazarenes, et.al.
Although the the Methodists are somewhat younger by comparison, their doctrine is quite even-keeled.

Finally, Presbos and Methodists tend to focus more on Christ and less on Paul(the Warrens and Parsleys are the reverse). Jesus was nicer.


:hi:

[Critters2]

36. Presbyterians were the established church in Scotland.

Still are.

[riqster]

38. Not when they started out

It's why my ancestors fled - the first converts were hanged. Granted, equilibrium was reached a lot sooner than in, say, France, but it was ugly for a while.

[Critters2]

40. Equilibrium was never reached in France. The Protestant church

there was pretty much wiped out in the St. Bartholomew's Massacre. Tiny pockets of Reformed Christians continued, mostly in the Pyrenees mountains. But the Protestant faith ceased to be in any functional way in France during the War of the Three Henris. My ancestors fled to Germany at that time.

[riqster]

43. So did the other half of mine.

1/2 Scotch Prod, 1/2 French Prod. The stories the old folks told, whooboy...oral traditions make for some amazing stuff.

France did at least stop the active persecution of non-Catholics after the Revolution, and that is what I was referring to.

[Critters2]

44. It's easy to stop persecuting people who left your country en masse

150 years earlier. I don't persecute Martians either. Which is really easy to do, since there aren't any here.

[riqster]

46. Some came back

My great-great grandfather and some of his relatives returned to France from Germany in the 19th century. Then his son moved to America because there were jobs here. The rest are still there.

OTOH, my Scot forebears never returned from Ireland, to which they fled in the 16th century - they came over here in the mid-1800's. My sister and I have both been back to Scotland (in fact, my upcoming honeymoon will be there), and are the first of our clan to have done so - over 400 years later.

This is one example of why organized religion, as a rule, gives me the dry gripes. Thank goodness there are exceptions, like the church the OP attended recently.

[Critters2]

48. The church the OP attended discriminates against gays. nt

[riqster]

51. Methodists and Presbos are not Catholics, thank goodness

By which I mean that there are large variations between congregations, and the mothership lacks the sort of control of the RCC.

That being said, I renounced my membership in the Presbyterian church after the national organization jumped on the anti-gay bandwagon last year. Nor am I the only one.

[Critters2]

52. The national org of the Presybterian Church has been anti-gay

since the reunion in the 80's. How you only noticed it last year is beyond me!!

[riqster]

56. Quietly anti-gay, not grandstanding about it

Now they have placed megaphone to lips.

[Critters2]

58. Doesn't make much difference to the glbt people who've been

denied ordination or marriage equality.

[Critters2]

31. The UMC Book of Discipline says "homosexuality is incompatible

with the Christian faith". That sounds pretty condemning to me.

[Warpy]

10. Now try the Unitarians

because they welcome atheists, just as they are.

What your wife is looking for is community. There are nice ones out there that will allow you to be who you are.

Unfortunately, you really need to ask what kind of weasels that money you drop into the collection plate is going to. With the UMC, even the more liberal congregations are supporting things most of them don't particularly want to support.

Should I find a need for that sort of community, it would have to be either the Unitarians or the Quakers for me.

[Ian David]

11. If I were Christian, I would choose either United Church of Christ of Unitarian Universalists. n/t

[RJ Connors]

14. Now would be a good time for you to read

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41IlsFPErjL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg



I think all men go through this thing when they first have a child, I know I did, and A.J. writes his journey from that perspective. Informative book and hysterically funny.

[aikoaiko]

15. Thanks, that book looks like fun.

;)

[riqster]

18. Library Trip!

Thanks, I gotta read that one.

[RJ Connors]

19. Yeah it was a great read and funny

and pretty technically correct. But it does make a point and I think it is an important one that one has to ask themselves at some point in life.

[jody]

20. I'm confident you will find most UMC members liberal and very progressive.

:hi:

[Critters2]

32. Then why is the church officially anti-gay? nt

[jody]

62. You know the UMC is not “officially anti-gay” when its statement is available on the internet.

HumanSexuality

Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and considers this practice incompatible with Christian teaching. We affirm that God's grace is available to all, and we will seek to live together in Christian community. We implore families and churches not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons.

What do you hope to accomplish by spreading such statements?

[Resuscitated Ethics]

21. I like the "open table" communion

The UMC around here is pretty tolerant. For me, going to church with my spouse is not being untrue to my scientific skepticism at all. Nice folks, good reason to get up and out on a rainy Sunday morning.

It is a good habit to have. I would not have considered it in my twenties. As I get older and slower it is nice to have something to look forward to

[ZombieHorde]

22. "I expect that their stances on ... homosexuality conflict with mine"

I don't know if your new church is bigoted against homosexuality or not either, but for the sake of this post, let us pretend the church is bigoted in this way.

Would you feel just as comfortable in a church which was bigoted against Black people or Jewish people?

If so, why; if not, why?

[aikoaiko]

24. You ask a good question.

Fortunately, I may be able to dodge it if the following is true:

From: http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1753

Home > Our Faith > Church and Society > Social Principles> Equal Rights Regardless of Sexual Orientation

Equal Rights Regardless of Sexual Orientation

Certain basic human rights and civil liberties are due all persons. We are committed to supporting those rights and liberties for homosexual persons.

We see a clear issue of simple justice in protecting their rightful claims where they have shared material resources, pensions, guardian relationships, mutual powers of attorney, and other such lawful claims typically attendant to contractual relationships that involve shared contributions, responsibilities, and liabilities, and equal protection before the law.

Moreover, we support efforts to stop violence and other forms of coercion against gays and lesbians. We also commit ourselves to social witness against the coercion and marginalization of former homosexuals.

From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church - 2004. Copyright 2004 by The United Methodist Publishing House. Used by permission.

I don't know how to really answer your question. I think I would still attend even if I didn't agree with central tenets regardless of the issue if there was more good than bad in some qualitative cost-benefit analysis. I can tolerate other people having discriminatory views to a point. Actions, of course, speak louder than words.

[Critters2]

35. Here's how the UMC feels about glbt people:

4. Regarding ordination

(From the Book of Discipline section dealing with the ordained ministry, Paragraph 304.3)

"While persons set apart by the Church for ordained ministry are subject to all the frailties of the human condition and the pressures of society, they are required to maintain the highest standards of holy living in the world. Since the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching, self-avowed practicing homosexuals* are not to be accepted as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church."

341.6

Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches.

6. Regarding use of church money

(From the Book of Discipline section on "Administrative Order," dealing with the responsibilities of the churchwide "Council on Finance and Administration," Paragraph 806.9.)

" shall be responsible for ensuring that no board, agency, committee, commission, or council shall give United Methodist funds to any gay caucus or group, or otherwise use such funds to promote the acceptance of homosexuality. The council shall have the right to stop such expenditures.* This restriction shall not limit the church's ministry in response to the HIV epidemic."

[The Blue Flower]

23. Most Methodist churches are "reconciling congregations"

Which means that they believe that homosexual unions are blessed by God to the same degree as heterosexual ones are.

[Critters2]

33. That's not true at all!!

The Book of Discipline says "homosexuality is incompatible with the Christian faith". This canon law has been voted on and approved by several General Conferences, which are made up of representatives of all those congregations you say are "reconciling". The majority of UMCs are blatantly anti-gay. It is against UMC canon law to believe that homosexual unions are blessed by God to any degree. The UMC does not ordain openly gay clergy, prohibits UMC clergy doing same-sex marriages, and prohibits such ceremonies taking place on UMC property.

The UMC is an anti-gay denomination.

[knitter4democracy]

27. Talk to the pastor and see if he's more liberal or more conservative.

There are factions, just like in any group of humans. If the pastor's more liberal, there's a good chance his bishop is as well, which means any pastor sent there will be more liberal.

My stepmom did that to my dad after they got married--made him agree to go to her Methodist church. She's the organist at theirs, and he's really come around to it. He's still agnostic, sure, but he likes the music a lot and the good works the church does in the community.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Glad you had a good experience

:-)

[Critters2]

34. Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors. Unless you're gay. nt

[Mamacrat]

37. Opening hearts, minds and doors...

Wouldn't it be nice to open hearts, open minds and open doors for gay and lesbian people in the Methodist church, too? Previously, women were not allowed to be ordained either, but that has changed. I don't think you can completely judge the Methodist church based on what its conference has done. I do see that the Book of Discipline has stated that the church can not donate to groups involving homosexuality because of incompatibility, but they do not donate to anti-homosexual groups, nor do they preach about it. (Maybe some Methodist churches do, but most do not.) They preach about personal responsibility, which many members of the church believe should also be extended to homosexual people. Not every politician is perfect, either, but we still vote. And regarding the Unitarian Church, they are not a Christian church, and the United Church of Christ just might not be the right one for everyone, particularly the specific church in the original poster's city. Don't forget to take into account the specific church and the fact that they are all made up of individuals.

[Critters2]

42. Women were only ordained in the UMC 50 years ago, Maud K. Jensen in 1956,

as opposed to the UCC's first ordination of a woman in 1853, and the UU's in 1858.

The UMC is a conservative church. Why it keeps getting a pass on its repressive positions is a mystery to me, but its official positions on glbt issues are EXACTLY the same as the Southern Baptist Convention, which no one on DU would encourage another DUer to join.

[The Blue Flower]

47. I've belonged to two Methodist churches

Both of them were reconciling. In my current church, the lay leader is gay and a lesbian couple is part of the leadership.

[Critters2]

50. Then they're in the minority. If they were the majority, the Book of Discipline

wouldn't be so blatantly homophobic. It is voted on by simple majority at General Conference. The majority of United Methodists believe homosexuality is incompatible with Christianity.

[kwassa]

39. United Methodists have liberal vs. conservative factions

The rulebook is probably more conservative than many of the congregations.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_umc4.htm

Having abandoned its racist and sexist policies, the UMC is now attempting to deal with its homophobic beliefs and practices.

The UMC members' beliefs about homosexuality are split along the same liberal/conservative lines as are present in other denominations. Most members fall into one of two groups:

Liberals within the UMC generally look upon gay/lesbian ordination and same-sex marriage as civil rights issues -- fundamental human rights issues that should be available to persons of all sexual orientations. They also typically believe that a homosexuality is a normal, natural sexual orientation for a minority of people. It is not changeable nor is it chosen.

Conservatives feel that homosexual behavior is a sin, hated by God and condemned throughout the Bible. Allowing a homosexual to be ordained would be a massive attack on historical church standards. Marriage is for one man and one woman only. Homosexuality is abnormal, unnatural behavior. It is chosen lifestyle and can be healed through therapy and prayer.

Progress towards racial, gender and sexual orientation inclusiveness in the Methodist Church has historically played major role in influencing change in other denominations. One reason for this is their membership size; another is that they are often referred to as the most "mainline" of Christian denominations. Where they go, other denominations often follow.

[Critters2]

41. Conservatives are in the majority, which is why the church is officially anti-gay. nt

[kwassa]

45. By a high percentage?

They will come around, they will have to, just like the public at large.

The Episcopals will be performing same-sex marriages. The Presbyterians are also struggling with the issue.

It is a societal change that will also affect the mainline churches, but I don't expect the Methodists to be out in front on the issue, either.

[Critters2]

49. There are churches that are out front on the issue.

Why would a progressive be part of any organization that discriminates so blatantly? There are denominations that ordain gay clergy, that do same sex weddings, that do not have the repressive policies of the UMC.

And the UMC doesn't have to come around. There are still denominations--large denominations--that refuse to ordain women. The UMC may be the same way about glbts. There's no reason to think otherwise.

[Mamacrat]

53. Missing the point...

I think that you are missing the point that others and I are making about the makeup and behavior of the actual congregations, which eventually will be those who affect change in any area in the future. You are dismissing individual congregants who are on your "side." That's great that your church ordained women early, but that doesn't change the fact that the UMC now has.

[Critters2]

54. Nor does it change the fact that the UMC is NOT the progressive

organization you want to pretend it is. I have too many gay and lesbian friends who've known the very real pain of being asked to seek ordination outside the UMC to pretend it is a progressive church. One very good friend of mine really believed what you do--that the United Methodist Church was caring and open to gay people. Then he came out to his bishop, and felt the wrath of a man he had felt warmly to, a man he had respected. Happily, he found a church that would welcome him and believed in his call to ministry. But he was forced to leave the denomination in which he was raised.

He and others have been deeply wounded by the repressive behaviors of churches that believe they can be openly hateful and still pass themselves off as "progressive". It isn't going to work any more. Those who know the truth will say so. A church that says officially that "homosexuality is incompatible with the Christian faith", is a conservative church. At best.

[Mamacrat]

55. Well...

Well, how do you expect it to be progressive if everyone who thinks progressively leaves without affecting change within the UMC?!

[Critters2]

57. How can they affect change if they're silenced by their bishops?

We're talking about people called by God to ministry, in a church that doesn't recognize that call because of whom they love. Why should they take that kind of abuse when there are churches that won't abuse them?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. The Episcopal Church is coming around to GLBT clergy and

same-sex weddings largely through massive "civil disobedience" on the part of its clergy and parishes.

For example, about 15 years ago now, my parish in Portland hosted a gay man awaiting ordination (seminary graduates awaiting ordination and performing their year of "internship" are known in Episcospeak as "transitional deacons"), even though our bishop at the time was a waffler who claimed to be for gay ordination but would not actually perform such ordinations until the national church approved them.

This particular transitional deacon made a hugely positive impression on our parish, being an excellent preacher and an all-around great guy. The bishop of the diocese where he was canonically resident (a different state) agreed to ordain him at our church if he came out to the parish and the parish still approved. We did.

At the end of the internship year, the bishop from the other diocese received permission from our bishop to come and perform the ordination in Portland. We anticipated trouble, but the only sign of trouble was one older priest who got up and made a statement about "abominations." Everyone else listened politely, shrugged as if to say "whatever," and the ceremony went on.

The next day, The Oregonian carried a large photograph of the ordination on the second page of its B section, with a headline that read something like "Homosexual ordained Episcopal priest," which seemed like an odd way to describe the man we were all so fond of.

The Episcopal Church does not currently have official same-sex marriages, but there's a lot of guerrilla activity in this regard. My parish clergy conduct several such ceremonies per year, even though they have no legal standing in Minnesota.

The consecration of Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire was another bit of guerrilla activism.

People who attend General Convention tell me that the number of people objecting to equality for GLBT members is growing smaller every year and includes more retired bishops than currently active ones.

[conscious evolution]

59. I was raised in a UMC

in Savannah,Ga.
Turned out okay in spite of them.

[Mamacrat]

61. Wesley?

Was it Wesley?

[Soodonim]

63. There is a lot of dissection of religious doctrine in this thread

when people should be examining why an adult needs an imaginary friend.

[Occam Bandage]

64. I think you didn't read the OP. nt

[beam me up scottie]

65. Knock it off.

This is a forum for discussing religion, not for taking cheap shots at fellow liberals.

Perhaps you should examine your obvious need to hurl insults at religious DUers.