The bigot card.

[Deep13]

Whenever I try to discuss the objective facts of religion, I usually make a few points, read a few points, make a few more, then get labeled a bigot or a "hater" (whatever that means) and the other person stomps away.

Please explain to me how this is not just an adult version of taking ones ball and going home (minus the ball, of course, since this tactic will not shut me up).

My criticisms of religion are based on facts (yes, you may feel free to dispute them) and not on prejudices. I am sufficiently well versed in religion and in history to know what I am talking about even if I am not ready to produce a doctoral thesis on the subject. (I have to mention this invariable someone will say I am speaking out of ignorance--not true.) They are directed at IDEAS and not PEOPLE. I do not hate or even disrespect people for being Jews, Hindus, Muslims or even Christians. Nevertheless, I have no respect for any of those sets of ideas. Now, I do hate religious people who do something horrible because of their religion. (On a side note, as a non-Christian, I am perfectly free to hate what I find hateful and to judge the difference between what is good and what is bad.) This is because of the tragedy of the unnecessary and wholly avoidable harm it causes. I do not impugn all Mormons because your church hates gays. I do not blame all Muslims for 9/11. Nevertheless, ignoring the religious causes of many of the world's evils (no, not all of them) is simply dishonest and counter-productive.

And that is another thing. At best I can only PRETEND to respect those ideas. The idea of pretending to respect and then calling that pretense respect is a purely religious practice to avoid the "sin" of doubt. I know I don't respect them and pretending or trying to do is would be an exercise in dishonesty and self-deception. So why should I SAY I respect those ideas? I know there is no god, so that would be a lie.

So why am I free to say conservatism is nothing more than institutional selfishness? What makes Creationism fair game? How come I can openly disagree with any idea about anything? Why am I free to say CONSERVATIVE religious ideas are barbaric and ignorant and have bad consequences? But as soon as I say a LIBERAL believer is wrong in his or her opinion about god or that believing those wrong things have negative consequences, suddenly I'm being a "hater?"

Bigotry and prejudice mean judging PEOPLE (not ideas) based on ignorance or demonstrably false ideas. Rejection of IDEAS themselves cannot be the basis for bigotry. By throwing down the bigot card, you are admitting that 1. your ideas are indefensible and 2. you are an intellectual coward who refuses even to consider any criticism. The only reason people are able to be religious is because of this insulating bubble of unquestioning deference. In short, you are judging ME by YOUR religious standards. And that is religious bigotry.

If you are perfectly free to spread your religion, and you are and many do, then I am perfectly free to say and to try to persuade others that you are wrong. I have no special duty to shut up. I find that liberal believers retreat behind a blind of mutual acceptance. I say "blind" because it assumes the impossible, that all religious views are valid (except mine, evidently) while refusing to see the impossibility of that. That, I suppose, is the real basis of your objection. You all cannot keep reassuring each other of your mutual acceptance once you realize that AT most only one religion can be right. Admitting that puts you back at square one with the conservative who take it for granted that everyone ELSE is going to hell. Well, I think believers are wrong as a point of fact, I think believing things that are demonstrably false causes people to act in harmful ways with the best of intentions. So, I am going to try to change the minds of as many of you as I can. Rationality is like a ratchet. A person cannot make himself or herself believe in fairy tales once s/he knows the truth. So once someone is comfortable questioning religion, it is highly unlikely she will ever believe again. I think you all know this and that is why you are so quick with the bigot card.

I'm pretty busy right now. I will check this thread on Saturday, probably in the evening.

[MNDemNY]

1. Bravo! Great Post. Thank you.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :yourock:

[Deep13]

9. thanks

Despite my empty, soulless existence, I do appreciate positive feedback.

[MADem]

2. Why do you want to argue? You know how you feel. What's the point?

You want to beat people down who have a different view than you do. It's just a nonproductive exercise.

I think religion is a bit goofy and often pointless, but I know that lots of people have a soft spot for it. They WANT to believe in the Invisible Man in the Sky. It comforts them.

When you start attacking them, it's as pointless as them coming up to you and telling you "You're fucking UGLY. It doesn't matter what you do--gain weight, lose weight, fix yourself up, get plastic surgery, exercise, have a make-over...no matter what you do, you are UGLY. Ugly, ugly, ugly, and you will always BEEEEEEEEEE ugly!!! So there!!!!"

I mean, really--how do you respond to that kind of attack? You can say "I'm not ugly, I'm not!!!" Or "I am ugly, but I don't care!!!!" What can you do against that...OPINION????

That's what these people do to you--they either protest your OPINION, or they tell you "Hey, you're wrong/I don't CARE what you think."

You aren't going to change anyone's mind who has their mind made up. All you're going to do is piss them off. And when you do that, why, they'll think you're ugly!

For all you know, the Invisible Man in the Sky invented all of the religions--after all, they're all, big picture, the same. Be nice, don't kill, here's your prophet, he looks kinda like you and you can relate to him, keep a holy day, give money to the men in dresses who spread my word, keep women down, be afraid that if you're bad I'm a gonna come and gitcha, but if you're good you'll get wonderful prizes...." It's all the same shit, in a slightly different wrapping.

You're not much of a bigot--you're more of an argumentative cuss who gets a kick out of pissing people off, I suspect.

[Deep13]

6. I think I'm right. Just like believers think they are.

I'm not arguing here that there is no god, although I'm convinced that there is not. I'm arguing that my criticism of religion is not bigotry while the insistence that I shut up about my views is.

I argue because I care about the truth. That is reason enough. Besides, after eight years of Bush, it should not be necessary to point out the negative consequences of believing irrational things.

[Sandrine for you]

3. Yep I agree on this. nt

[Warpy]

4. The problem with looking objectively at another person's

belief system is that you're threatening them at the deepest level by what they see as questioning something that should never be questioned.

The deepest doubters are always the most threatened and will become angry and defensive at anything other than either total agreement or respect to the point of groveling.

Just the existence of people who have totally rejected what they secretly doubt threatens them deeply.

Add to that the fact that nothing looks sillier than somebody else's religion, and there's a real problem with discussing anything pertaining to it objectively.

I've given up discussing other belief systems. I don't share them so there's really no point. I will correct other people who tend to define me in terms of their own belief system, but that's as far as it goes.

[Strong Atheist]

5. "I will correct other people who tend to define me in terms of their own belief system"

Unfortunately, there is still a very vocal and busy group in this country who wants to do that through laws ...

[Deep13]

8. and they're often in the majority.

[Deep13]

7. As a practical matter, I don't pick fights with people.

Still, I do not allow them to define how I ought to be thinking or to claim that falsehoods are fact or the other way around. At least I don't allow it without a challenge. And that's when they get pissed off and call me a bigot for not respecting their religious dogma.

[newtothegame]

10. You get called a bigot because that is the politically convenient thing for us to do.

Sorry to say, but we've been doing it for years. So much so that we on the left (and yes, I'm bunching us all together) have taken all meaning out of words like "racist," "sexist," and "nazi." These words mean nothing to anyone anymore and fail to shock or bring attention to an issue anymore because for years we have used them anytime it is politically convenient or expedient to do so, or used them simply because we can't win a conversation and want it to end. We've shot ourselves in the foot.

Look at last year's primaries for as an example. Instead of having a rational discussion between the merits of Hillary v Barack, we both wings of our party decided that it was more politically expedient to play the race card, the gender card, etc.