Those Wacky Mormons!

[SavageDem]

I’m currently reading a fascinating book called Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith by Jon Krakauer. It uses a brutal double-homicide (mother-child) committed by Mormon fanatics as the catch, but covers the entire history of the Mormon “church.” I now realize how incredibly little I knew about those wackos. I realize that doesn’t sound very accepting. I’m normally a very accepting person; you want your own religion, fine. But when the religion advocates misogyny, male chauvinism, polygamy, murder, and an incredibly antiquated patriarchal system of rule, as well as a complete disregard for any form of government outside its theology, then I have a problem with it.

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[DrDan]

1. I lived in Salt Lake City years ago

never have I felt so much like an outsider - not welcome in my neighbor's homes. In the neighborhood.

Biased? Discriminatory? Yep - I am. Not proud of it - but I know what I went through as during those 4 years.

[YOY]

4. There was an LDC family in our neighborhood. Nice kids.

The mother was a whack job who didn't want her kids hanging with people "outside of her church" so she stopped them from playing with us (and everybody else save the small Mormon contingent in NE Ohio). My mother (liberal Catholic) was totally sickened by this and her open attitude that anyone other than LDCs were vile non-believers. Mind you nobody ever tried to "convert" them or even talked about religion with them...

Yeah, if you want to have a viable opinion don't give the neighbors the message that they are "heathens". That was in a mostly Catholic neighborhood in Ohio. I can only imagine it being done on a large scale in SLC.

[demwing]

11. It's LDS, not LDC

Also, Salt Lake City is a democratic stronghold in the state, and voted for Obama.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/11/19/1681768.aspx

Ever hear of Rocky Anderson? Former Mayor of SLC? He's the type of people that get re-elected in the capitol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Anderson

I'm tired of religious bias. It bores me.

[YOY]

12. Yes it is LDS.

I wasn't talking about bias. I was talking about a specific case.

Well aware that Rocky kicks ass. Wish more Mormons did.

The woman in my story did not kick ass. She sucked ass.

[SavageDem]

13. I'm tired of religious bias, too.

Religious beliefs or affiliations should not interfere with or abridge the rights of anyone else. And that's what galls me about the Mormon cult. There are many other organizations, both ecumenical and secular, that do the same, but this just happens to be the one I'm currently reading about.

[cosmik debris]

16. All religion is bias. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

25. "I'm tired of religious bias. It bores me."

Especially when the bias is against smaller religions, such as Heaven's Gate or OM Supreme Truth. People love to pick on the little guys.

[Strong Atheist]

5. Welcome to the

atheist world ...

[Richard D]

2. Check out

South Park season 7 "All about the Mormons". excellent!

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/

[Schema Thing]

3. I've got that on my list to read

And just so you know, Jehovah's Witnesses are in many ways even worse than Mormons.

[SavageDem]

6. I need to learn more about JWs, too.

And Christian Scientists. I know several people that were raised as Christian Scientists - and have since left - that don't have fond memories. Something about almost dying because your parents won't seek medical help. Tends to not build loyalty to a faith.

[Schema Thing]

17. There is actually a great movie out right now about JW's

It's Danish, and it is based on a real life story. It's called Tu Verdener or in English "Worlds Apart".

It's funny, I saw it the same day I saw a documentary about JW's, and the movie gives any outsider a much more accurate representation of the life of a JW than does the documentary.

[MNDemNY]

7. Religion of any ilk is a travesty of mankind.

[GrannyK]

8. I've experienced that cult close up. It is a cult.

I lived in Idaho for several years and that state has a large population of Mormons. I also have relatives, by marriage, who are Mormons. One town I lived near was at least 95% Mormon and had a Mormon college.

That 'religion' was founded on lies. There is another book "The Mormon Murders: A true story of greed, forgery, deceit and death" which delves into another murder and goes into the Smith legacy of a foundation of lies. The 'profits' (what they call their priests) who profit from the power of the cult are aware of the swampy foundation yet do all in their power to keep that slimy past submerged. Even, and especially, from their own membership.

[SavageDem]

10. Krakauer's book references the book you mention.

He also talks about your last statement: the Mormon "church" has been ruthless in buying, acquiring, and then "vanishing" all documents/relics/artifacts that pertain to their sordid history. Source documents that were used for books published early in the 20th century have disappeared, as they were damning in their testimony.

It'd make for a great movie; there are many parallels between them hiding their history and the Catholic church (or subsect thereof) pursuing the Holy Grail - to hide their history - in the Dan Brown novels.

[bevoette]

28. OH...i just finished "The Mormon Murders" not too long ago...

and it was all about that, the documents

funny thing was...it was a conman, he was FORGING source documents...then basically blackmailing the Mormon church, and they fell for it - buying up all these forged documents. the guy was REALLY good - he forged several items to be actually written by Smith, Smith's (first) wife, etc.

of course, it all came crashing down and he ended up blowing some people up, so in the end it wasn't THAT good...but still

your point about the documents is dead on - that's EXACTLY what they do - they are all in The Vault and nobody has access to it except the profit...total scam

here it is: http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Murders-Steven-Naifeh/dp/0312934106/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233950959&sr=1-1

it was a really good read, btw - i would recommend it to those interested

[Strong Atheist]

14. Which brings up an interesting question:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=36727


As an atheist, I think ALL religions are cults.

There seem to be be two operating definitions of cults. The most common way that people seem to use the word is "some weird set of beliefs that I don't hold."

The practical, real world use seems to deal with time and/or numbers. If a cult has been around long enough or converted enough people, it magically becomes a religion.

Give the Mormons another one or two hundred years; they will get to "religion" status.

As for me, using either of the two definitions above results in all religions = cults, because time and/or numbers is not a difference of significance to me; therefore there is no significant difference between a cult and a religion.

Seriously. :evilgrin:

[demwing]

19. It was only relatively recently that the word CULT has taken a deviant tone

Read the following:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

""...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult."

[Strong Atheist]

22. Seems similar to my thinking. nt.

[TechBear_Seattle]

20. It's as simple as ABCDEF

http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

The distinguishing mark of a cult is the amount of control it holds over its adherents. Most religions are not cults, and there are some cults that have nothing to do at all with religion.

[customerserviceguy]

9. One of the key differences with Mormons

is that there's really no other religious denomination in America that controls wide swaths of territory almost exclusively. Yes, you might have a Lutheran town over here, but ten or fifteen miles down the road, there's a Catholic town, etc. You have about a million people in an area that it takes only two hours to drive from north to south that is 70% one religion, and that's what gives them the sense that they don't need to get along with other people.

Mormons outside of the "Jello Belt" (google it up if you don't believe me!) are more "go along, get along" because they accept their minority status in other communities.

[demwing]

15. I have lived in Utah for 9 years

Not in the democratic stronghold of the state capitol in Salt Lake City, but 60 mile south, in a smallish town. Deep LDS country, with a mormon church in every neighborhood.

The LDS people here know I'm more than a bit of an outsider to their faith. I go to a Hindu temple, put Obama signs up in my yard, and generally behave in all ways separately from the church and local politics.

But I and my family am ALWAYS accepted warmly and with great friendship here. As an example, my 9 year old son passed away less than a month ago, following a hard battle with cancer, and we had services at the only Hare Krishna Temple in the state, to open minds and hearts.

Guess what? The LDS community came out in spades. The Bishop from the local church (thats what they really call their priests - bishops. They only call the church leaders "Prophets") showed up, though we have never stepped foot in his temple. There were over two LDS dozen people there whom we have never met, but who saw my son's obituary notice, and thought it would be a life experience to go to his service in this different environment.

The local elementary school did a penny fundraiser for my son, and raised over $5,000 in donations for our family. The local LDS church had a team of neighbors organized to help us get through that month, with food, help with chores, and just friendship. No strings, no proselytizing. Just people being good neighbors.

We are treated with love and respect in Utah, because we treat others with in that way. In the end - so saith the Beatles - the love you take is equal to the love you make. Get over your own prejudices and you may find that others take a step to get over theirs as well.

[GrannyK]

18. Yes, many of the Mormon people are kind and compassionate.

Their family values can be considered as wholesome. And they are mostly just average people, after all. However, the teachings of the elders are extremely dogmatic and isolationist. And the people are mostly followers of authority and dare not question.
I hope to continue with this thought a little later but I have to leave now for an appointment.

[SavageDem]

21. I am so sorry to hear about your son.

I have a 10 year old, and cannot bear to think about what you've been through. My thoughts are with you.

To your point: I try hard not to be prejudiced. As I tried to say, perhaps unsuccessfully, what I am prejudiced against is intolerence, bigotry, racism, sexism, class-ism, and most other -isms. The Mormon "church" has stood for many of these things.

But that being said, and to your and GrannyK's point: people are people, and I'm not painting with a broad brush here that all those who are part of the Mormon "church" espouse all those - what I classify as - wrongs. But the "church" in the abstract has, and continues to do so in many ways. As have many other faiths. I don't feel in pointing out injustice that I am being prejudiced.

[demwing]

26. Thank you

He was an old soul, if one believes such a thing, and our family does. He has gone to better place, where ever that may be (see sentence #1).

To your point, in turn: groups, or institutions often freely engage in acts over which many an individual would feel a great deal of embarrassment. But don't confuse one thing for another. Don't believe that the individuals in a group are all of a set mind with the group. There are many thinking people in Utah.

[SidneyCarton]

23. Thank you for seeing the people instead of the propaganda demwing...

n/t

[noahthompson]

24. Mormons

I lived in Utah and California. My neighbors in Utah are much friendlier than California. The book that was quoted to make people feel negative against "mormons" is not real life.

[SavageDem]

27. I'm sure there are many fine Mormons.

But they also have been credited with being the driving financial force behind the passage of Proposition 8 (no same-sex marriage).

[pokerfan]

30. hey, they were just defending marriage

Marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a dozen unwilling teen-aged girls.

[rd_kent]

29. You just described nearly every religion on the planet!

"But when the religion advocates misogyny, male chauvinism, polygamy, murder, and an incredibly antiquated patriarchal system of rule, as well as a complete disregard for any form of government outside its theology, then I have a problem with it."

That describes nearly all of them! they are all whack-o's.