Lutheran Church and gay rights.

[Strong Atheist]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jMEVyyQh_4sDAGGEDWTjtQQ4mEYQD96ER1T01

[trotsky]

1. Sounds pretty much like "Don't ask, don't tell."

It doesn't make either side happy. I wonder why their god doesn't just appear at one of their big church meetings and tell them what it thinks. Then there would be no problem. Does their god *like* to see fighting instead?

[Cheap_Trick]

2. Their god would have to exist first.....

[trotsky]

3. Details, schmetails. n/t

[davidinalameda]

5. compromises generally don't make either side happy

but they generally work in the end

let the individual congregations decide on who they want their pastor to be

I'm willing to bet you'll see a good number of congregations have gay or lesbian ministers in the future

[trotsky]

6. Of course we do have the entire history of the Christian church to tell us what's going to happen.

A split, and lots of fighting. It's almost like their god ENJOYS seeing people fight.

[davidinalameda]

7. I know that you probably don't believe in God

due to your snide comments but it's not God that enjoys the fight

it's people who try to gain power for themselves at the expense of others

[trotsky]

16. Things like this are just part of the mountain of evidence AGAINST the Christian god.

Christians fight. They've been doing it for 2000 years. No signs of stopping, though at least in the last few decades the fights haven't been quite as bloody as they used to be. And all it would take is your god to just make an appearance - or heck, doesn't even have to be that grand. Just help the misguided Christians realize the truth. I know the canned answer here - "FREE WILL!" but the bible itself tells of god intervening to change minds (hardening the pharoah's heart, anyone?) as it sees fit. So why not help keep the precious Christian church united in love instead of bickering and splitting yet again?

[davidinalameda]

19. People fight because they don't follow Jesus' teachings

it is that pesky little free will thing that God gave us-no matter how "canned" of an answer you think it is

people are free to choose how to live and how to believe and how to love and, in some case, how to hate

people are you are free to throw your bombs at people of faith

the truth is out there, but God doesn't force us to accept it and that's our loss because we're not listening to God's words

[trotsky]

20. And the Pat Robertsons and Fred Phelpses of the world say the same thing.

If only you would follow the true teachings! And if you seriously think that exposing your religion to a little bit of critical thinking amounts to "throw(ing) bombs" that's just pathetic. Christians like you aren't happy unless your faith is given a special, privileged position in society. In that way you do share a lot on common with Robertson and Phelps, so maybe there's hope yet you can reconcile.

[davidinalameda]

24. people like you aren't happy unless they're tearing other people down

I pray for people like you to open their hearts and their minds to God and his truth

maybe one day before it's too late...

[trotsky]

25. "before it's too late"

Ah yes, the old threat of eternal punishment. Strange how a supposed religion of love always turns to threats of punishment when all else fails. Sorry, I want none of the kind of Christianity YOU believe in.

[Why Syzygy]

26. Look at mine! It doesn't.

What can be said of ministers of the gospel (good news, glad tidings) who consign men to an endless hell of misery, without warrant of Scripture, or by grossly distorting the Word of God, and then gloat over it, as the following from the pen of Dr. Torrey shows? He said:

"If after men have sinned and God still offers mercy, and makes the tremendous sacrifice of His Son to save them. If they still despise that mercy and trample God's Son underfoot. If then they are consigned to everlasting torment, I say: "Amen! Hallelujah!"—Torrey's What the Bible Teaches, Page 312.

With the foregoing quotation before us it must be clear to all that a doctrine that can lead men to rejoice at suffering and to shout "Amen" and "Hallelujah" at torture and distress, is soul-hardening, conscience searing and God dishonoring, and should be rejected by all who love the God of truth.
...
If the words translated hell in the Bible were given their true meanings the English word hell would not appear in the Scriptures at all.
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/are-we-all-going-straight-to-hell-1.html

I don't blame you. I found it impossible to believe, until that concept was corrected.

[trotsky]

27. Just another Christian disagreement.

When you've convinced all the other Christians on this planet that they're wrong and you (and this Dr. Torrey) are right, give me a call. Start with Dave from Alameda.

[Why Syzygy]

30. Please. Read. More. Carefully.

Dr. Torrey is the one in error.

Lookit. The Romans took over Christianity at a very early stage. They completely corrupted it for CENTURIES. It is no wonder that we are still working to straighten things out. Recall the Reformation? It isn't finished. We've only had access to Scripture for 500 years!

Yes, there are disagreements. If that's your basis for rejection, then that's that.
But, that wasn't your stated objection. Unity will come. Just don't know when.

Until then, just understand that I do know how you feel. Six months ago, I was very angry at Christians, too.
We would have been on the same side of this issue. It's your choice to voice objections.

I haven't seen any Atheists at DU with any kind of attitude that would appeal to most people.
edit: I've seen one.
And, you haven't seen mainstream Christians who appeal to yours.
Even.

[trotsky]

32. Regardless, my plea stands.

Please start convincing your fellow Christians (including the one on this thread who believes I will burn in hell) of their error. Make enough progress and I might actually believe there's something different about your spin on the religion.

[Why Syzygy]

22. Plus, the spirit of Anti-Christ walks among us.

That's the seed of discord. Doesn't come from God.

[davidinalameda]

23. thanks

it is evil that breeds division

[Strong Atheist]

33. It is amazing how god gets credit for everything positive, but nothing negative.

Can I get that job? :evilgrin:

Sing it, everyone!

All Things Dull and Ugly
(Monty Python)

All things dull and ugly, all creatures short and squat;
All things rude and nasty, the Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons, each little wasp that stings
He made their brutish venom, He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous, all evil great and small
All things foul and dangerous, the Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet, each beastly little squid.
Who made the spiky urchin? Who made the shark? He did.

All things scabbed and ulcerous, all pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous, The Lord God made them all.

[struggle4progress]

11. It's not very much like "Don't ask, don't tell." The ELCA position does not

require openly gay people to hide their sexual orientation in order to belong to a congregation, nor does it require openly gay people to pretend to be celibate in order to belong to a congregation; the congregation, in which I was raised, had openly gay couples as members for decades and hired openly gay persons for some of its community service operations

The current issue is that the ELCA doesn't officially allow non-celibate gays to serve as clergy and doesn't officially recognize anything like marriage between gays, although some congregations ignore this. The current question, as I understand it, is whether the decision (to hire gay clergy in committed relationship) can be made locally

[struggle4progress]

4. As a Lutheran, I suppose I should not ignore this issue; this battle will be fought

along standard fault lines: Is our religion about morality or about love? Is it about perfecting oneself in the context of what Catholics call natural law or about admitting one's own imperfections in order to meet others with grace? To be more gracious and productive in relationships with others, one must face one's own limitations and failures -- and must seek to overcome them: otherwise, the constant human tendency, to accuse others in order to justify ourselves and distract attention from our own faults, prevents us from living with honest goodwill among our neighbors. There is an unavoidable dialectical tension in this: it might never be eliminated by synthesis, but one might hope that it will, in time, evolve into better forms

[JerseygirlCT]

8. I think both our churches will have to live through a period of

pain in order to come to that synthesis.

Of course, meantime, I think we ought to start recognizing our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters as fully human and fully capable, and just try be patient with the idiots who won't do that. (Did I say that?)

[skepticscott]

9. The Lutherans have been considering this issue

for a long, long time. Unfortunately, "considering" it is pretty much all they ever do. They discuss and debate and argue, all the while telling themselves that they need to reach some kind of "consensus" before they set a firm policy (which of course they never do). So the issue gets tabled until the next convention in order to "prayerfully consider" it some more, which puts them right back to square one every time.

[struggle4progress]

10. "They discuss and debate and argue" --- kinda like DU, eh?

[Strong Atheist]

12. !

:rofl:

:applause:

[skepticscott]

13. Well, no...not like DU at all, actually

Church bodies debate things with the ostensible goal of setting policy or doctrine that will govern their members, which is not what happens here at all. Do you truly not comprehend such a simple difference, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

[struggle4progress]

17. Since there's a proposal moving forward for consideration, I guess we'll know in June whether

any progress has been made

[CatholicEdHead]

14. Good progress by the ELCA, the last part will come sooner than later

I wish the Catholic Church would catch up to the ELCA on this.

[skepticscott]

15. Not sure this qualifies as progress yet

They've been contemplating treating homosexuals like full human beings for quite a while (once they finally got around to considering them at all), but they still hold back from doing what's right, for fear of offending some members. Real progress would be to actually enact (as opposed to just debating) a policy that gave homosexual clergy the same rights and status as heterosexual clergy, because it's the right thing to do, and to take the stance that the ELCA doesn't need those members and congregations that think it would be a horrible thing to do. As long as they keep trying to make everyone happy, they'll keep spinning their wheels on this issue.

[CatholicEdHead]

18. It is progress compared to the current Catholic hierarchy

Homosexuality is extremely taboo. Those who do not take a hard line view of driving them away/kick out of seminary are getting fewer and fewer. It is really, really sad (I actually was banned from Catholic Anwwers board for being too accepting of homosexuality :crazy: ).

Eventually as generational change happens, homosexuality will be more accepted and the ELCA would not have to try to make everyone happy.

[skepticscott]

21. Oh, compared to the Catholic church it's progress

But then, any thinking beyond the medieval would be progress by that standard. But when you compare how far the Lutheran church has moved towards where they should be from where they started, it ain't far, and it's taken them a long time just to get there. And as far as waiting for "generational change" to make it easier for them, that's a pretty lame excuse. Why should a church get any respect for moral leadership if they're catching up to the rest of society on human rights issues instead of being out front?

[CatholicEdHead]

28. Sometimes things take time

This is also only ELCA, I doubt the Wisconsin and Missouri Syndets (sp) would follow suit. The ELCA is the trailblazer on this issue. It is a touchy issue to some people, some of the homosexuality problems come not from religion but a different cultural generation when it was not accepted at all.

I will continue to watch the ELCA's process to continue to try to move the Catholic Church forward when the current neo-retro movement moves on and catches up with the rest of the world.

When you get talking about religion, you often end up with emotion rather than logic. Other than that there is no reason why religion is taking a backseat to secular culture on these issues.

[54anickel]

29. I'm not sure, but I THINK the ELCA would be more out front if this issue directly effected

members instead of just rostered leaders. Personally, I wish they'd have been more forth-coming but when you read the report you get the feeling that the momentum is definitely forward. I am getting rather tired and impatient with these baby steps though.

The report directs one to Romans 14 which starts out stating - As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

The Word Alone folks certainly took issue with the reports and it looks like they've decided "them's fightin' words" (Who's the weak in faith here?)
The folks at Lutheran CORE aren't taking it lightly either - http://www.lutherancore.org/ :crazy:

For some reason, I don't think we'll have to wait for "generational change" to come around. "Splinter groups" like the 2 listed above will no doubt break away all on their own soon enough. I think they are waiting for and actually hoping for a push from the ELCA to justify their schism. If there's any push, it won't come from the ELCA leadership but rather from the church wide assembly.

Meanwhile the ELCA continues to encourage and support synods and congregations wanting to participate in the LC/NA Reconciling in Christ program.

[Why Syzygy]

31. "affected" not "effected" n/t