What if you're wrong?

[cynatnite]

For all those here who believe in a god, higher power or whatever, this is my question to you. If you're wrong, is all the church going, praying, or whatever you do to express your belief a waste of time?

[Midlodemocrat]

1. No. Not at all.

The thought that I will see my parents again at some point gives me great comfort as I trudge through life. It's hardly a burden.

[cynatnite]

4. What if you're wrong? What if you won't ever see your parents?

Don't get me wrong...I do understand where you're coming from. I want to see my Dad. So much so that it hurts at times, but I won't see him again. That's death for you.

Do you refuse to consider you might be wrong?

[pnwmom]

And what if you're wrong, cynatnite?

What if there is a God, and even an after-life? Your rejection of God could have consequences, too.

[cynatnite]

11. So, I should believe because I might be wrong?

Believe just in case?

That's hypocritical and it'd be a lie. I can't live like that.

[Why Syzygy]

16. So, your OP

is not just about asking an honest question. You're looking for validation?
Or felt a need to beat up on some Believers today? :eyes:

[cynatnite]

22. I'm very curious...that's why I asked. n/t

[Why Syzygy]

31. So, you view people of faith as a "curiosity". Isn't there a zoo in your town? nt

[cynatnite]

36. Oh, you're funny...

:rofl:

[Name removed]

42. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KGodel]

44. What if there's a devil and you get punished for not worshiping him?

What if there's an after death Disneyland and you don't get to go if you weren't a Presbyterian? What if you've been tricked into living a life of misery so that others could prosper? What if...

Lots of things could be.

[pnwmom]

50. This OP began with a "what if" question that obviously has a flip side. n/t

[Idir]

70. If there was a deity, it'd be wiser than us.

Come on! If there were a god/dess, s/he wouldn't discriminate against those who don't believe in him/her, as long as they live an altruistic, loving, and caring life and respect all members of their community.

[Goblinmonger]

55. Given all the specific dogmas out there

with their specific rules for worshiping god correctly, Pascal's wager is a sucker bet.

[Midlodemocrat]

12. Yes, I do. I refuse to consider that I might be wrong.

That's why they call it Faith. If I am wrong, I can't do anything about it, right? Seems to me that it's a bit like worry. Worry is a needless emotion, you can't benefit from it, it only sucks the life out of you.

I truly couldn't deal with the thought that seeing my parents in their coffins was *it*. I prefer to have Faith and believe that I will see them.

I mean, do you refuse to consider that I might be right? And I do understand what you are saying; I just don't agree.

[cynatnite]

20. I have seriously considered that there is a god....

I spent a good portion of my time contemplating, reading and talking with others before coming to a conclusion. There is nothing certain in this world, but I do believe in living life as honestly as possible. That honesty means acknowledging god does not exist and all the faith in the world won't change it.

[plcdude]

27. are you certain?

you know you don't have to close all the doors. Leave some open watch for clues for signs one way or the other.

[cynatnite]

37. As certain as I can be...

If evidence is presented to change my mind, then I will.

[Midlodemocrat]

38. And, as certain as you are, I am equally as certain that there is a God.

Here's why.

When I was pregnant with my baby doll, who is now 12, I started bleeding profusely at 12 weeks gestation. I was devastated because I really, really wanted this baby and I had told the other two that they should be expecting a new baby.

I didn't lose the baby, Thank God, but I suffered for months afterwards worrying. About the same time, it looked as though my husband, who was our sole support, would be losing his job.

I was in Mass one Sunday and distraught about the pregnancy, the job loss and all at once a tremendous calm came over me. I heard in my ear "Everything will be okay".

And, it was.

Now make what you will of that. I will go to my grave believing it was the Lord speaking to me.

[cynatnite]

40. To me that is your conscience speaking to you...

and that can be a powerful voice.

[pnwmom]

52. Does your conscience speak in a voice you can hear?

That's interesting.

I'm willing to bet for most of us that's never happened.

[cynatnite]

76. For those that it does happen to, there is medication for that. n/t

[pnwmom]

51. There is another alternative. You don't have to come to a conclusion.

Many people remain agnostic for their entire lives, sometimes being more on one side, sometimes more on the other side of the divide. If there IS a God, the door is open.

Actually, I think in some senses agnostics are more open to real faith than hard-and-fast fundamentalists, or anyone who is always certain about their religious beliefs.

[cynatnite]

63. I used to be agnostic...

If evidence is presented proving otherwise I will adjust my thinking.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MercutioATC]

2. Waste of opportunity...waste of options...waste of unfettered thought.

Those would be what I was concerned about, not the waste of time.

[Political_Junkie]

3. Whether you believe in God or not,

how could anything that gives a person a greater appreciation for life ever be a waste of time?

[laconicsax]

73. How does prayer and religion give someone a greater appreciation for life?

Serious question.

[plcdude]

5. really

we could be wrong and totally misled but then again isn't it smarter to believe. If you are right then I will have spent considerable time meeting some good people and friends and helped others with various needs, and even exchange ideas that challenged my perceptions. Hardly a waste of my time as I see it. The other question, of course, is what if we were right? When my eyes go dark for the last time I have no idea what will happen next if anything. We'll just have to wait and see when the time comes for each of us. In the meantime, helping others, sharing life's challenges and joys, and pondering more than just my own needs and wants is the way I want to waste my time. Hang in there kid.

[cynatnite]

8. Why is it smarter to believe? n/t

[plcdude]

10. well

you have hedged your bet. No god, no anything after death, you have not gained or lost anything. If there is a God and you have been trying to trust and correlate your life to her specifications well, you win.

[cynatnite]

13. I guess I don't understand that...

believing just in case god's for real. It seems rather hypocritical to say 'I'm gonna believe just in case god is real'. That just doesn't work for me.

[plcdude]

17. see my response # 15

about pretending.

[cosmik debris]

23. Haven't you ever heard of Pascal's wager

And how it is debunked?

Try google.

[plcdude]

24. of course

there have been several objections to the wager: that a person cannot simply will himself to believe something that is evidently false to him; that the wager would apply as much to belief in the wrong God as it would to disbelief in all gods, leaving the the believer in any particular god in the same situation as the atheist or agnostic; that God would not reward belief in him based solely on hedging one's bets; and so on.
It is just a beginning point to the discussion of "what if you are wrong"

[cosmik debris]

28. The beginning for you is the end for some.

Pascal's wager is usually debunked in first semester philosophy. I was amazed to see it repeated in this forum.

I suggest you examine the truth tables. Wikipedia is a good source.

[Tesha]

Third possibility: Wrong god. And considering that there are thousands gods, you probably...

...*DO* believe in the wrong one. And the real god may resent that.

(That's why Pascal's wager is a cruel joke and worthless as a life guide.)

Tesha

[Why Syzygy]

45. Most gods don't care how many of them you worship.

There's only one who claims exclusivity. And, that's the One whom every denier hates.

[Tesha]

47. But to worship all of those thousands of gods will take more time than any human has. (NT)

[Tesha]

39. (Duplicate post removed by author)

[laconicsax]

74. Pascal's wager goes both ways.

If you hedge your bet--no gods, no afterlife, you have neither gained or lost anything. If there is no God and you dedicate your life to living in accordance with its specifications, then you've spent your life dedicated to a lie. I'd say that's a waste--to spend your life living not for yourself, but for a fiction.

[heidler1]

29. I do all of what you do as a human and without any eternal reward for doing it.

You wrote "In the meantime, helping others, sharing life's challenges and joys, and pondering more than just my own needs and wants is the way I want to waste my time. Hang in there kid."

The reason this Atheist does the same stuff is he knows life is better when you do. Dogs even behave that way.

Being a believer does not mean that you are more honorable than an Atheist or more loyal or less self centered. Being an Atheist only means that you do not believe in gods and usually supernatural myths either. This in-turn means IMO that all writing and speeches attributed to gods are a hoax.

[beam me up scottie]

34. "then I will have spent considerable time meeting some good people and friends and helped others...

And atheists don't do the same?

If believers need a stick and a carrot to do good, it's probably better not to challenge their faith.

[Kellen RN]

71. Smarter to believe?

Are you kidding me?

I'm an atheist, was agnostic, and have often tried really, really hard to believe in something, in anything. And all that has caused me more grief than being an atheist. In fact, being an atheist has brought me more comfort than any religion ever has.

I am 99.9999999% sure that when I die then that's it for me. Maybe my energy or life force or whatever will be recycled into the universe. But me, what I think of as Kellen, will be gone. The thing I think of as me is my mind which is pretty much electrical and chemical signals in my brain. When the electrical activity in my brain stops, I stop being.

And I'm totally okay with that. I'm comfortable because I'm not worried about what happens to me when I die. Do what you want with me, I don't care. My wife would probably have a "green" funeral and that makes me happy.

What I do know is that the atoms in my body, all 7 octillion (7 with 27 zeroes after it) of them will continue to exist as long as the universe exists, unless of course they fall into a black hole or are somehow annihilated by some cosmic force in the next several billion years.

And I think this is smartest for me. Maybe it's smarter for you to believe. Hell, I live in Oklahoma, it certainly would be EASIER to believer, but smarter? Not at all. Any just god wouldn't punish me for questioning an absurd story, and if that being would punish me for questioning and not believing then I don't want to spend eternity with that asshole.

So once again, what makes me most comfortable and happiest is atheism. And in my opinion it is smarter to believe in that which makes you happiest, provided it doesn't cause people to wage wars and judge people, of course not all religion does that.

[JuniperLea]

6. If people actually walk the talk

And live the life, help others, etc., then no, not a waste at all.

If it is all shallow and for show, then yes, huge waste. The interesting part of that is, God, or whomever, is supposed to know what is in the minds and hearts of us all, so the phony wouldn't reap the rewards anyway.

[pnwmom]

7. I've asked myself that before.

If I am wrong, no matter. The ideals that come from my spiritual beliefs are something I would want to try to live up to anyway. Suppose God doesn't exist? How can spending time trying to think about how to live a more loving, generous life be a waste of time?

On the other hand, what if you're wrong?

[cynatnite]

9. I should have been more specific in my questions...

I don't mean to imply that helping others, being loving and all that is a waste of time. Obviously, it's not. I'm looking at the other aspect of religion such as church, praying, bible and all that...would that be a wast of time if god isn't real.

To answer you're question...

My conscience won't allow me to pretend to believe based on the chance that I might be wrong. It's hypocritical and I can't live like that.

[pnwmom]

14. I am not suggesting that you should pretend to believe anything.

I'm just pointing out that we're taking a risk either way.

The "other aspects" that you refer to are all ways to support a person in living the kind of life they're trying to lead. So they're no more of a waste of time than anything we do to help us be better, healthier people.

[Political_Junkie]

19. Well said.

:)

[plcdude]

15. not all

believers go to church or even spend inordinate amounts of time and energy praying or reading the bible. You can't pretend to believe. You can only take the leap or not take the leap.

[pnwmom]

21. "Inordinate amounts of time and energy"? Are you kidding? There are even

more kinds of believers than there are kinds of religions. Some make specific religious practices a large part of their lives, some don't.

[Marrah_G]

69. I don't believe because I think I have to.

No one should believe in something because they feel they have to. That negates any true belief.

[Wildewolfe]

18. There is a corollery there

that's equally interesting from a strict cost/benefit analysis.

What if those that don't believe are wrong?

I'm not going to judge either side. I find the points interesting. But if you look at it from that point of view tossing out fundamentalism in all forms as being valid, you get an interesting alternative thing to think about.

The what if.

If Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, Islam, Wicca, Buddism, , or just belief and adherance to a moral code gives access to an eternity of some form of eternal bliss, then what a trivial cost is several decades of believing, particularly if that belief gives some comfort in troubling times.

The line gets crossed of course when you try to impose your belief system on others or to inflict Religion into Politics. That's the main thing that really should be debated in the context of these forums... not what a person believes or chooses not to believe, but the true separation of church and state. When you mix Religion and politics you get politics... Everytime.

[ElboRuum]

25. Why would it be a waste of time?

Devoting oneself to what makes one feel more at one with life, the universe, and everything could hardly be considered a waste of time even if the premise behind that belief is found to be fallacious. Spirituality and enlightenment is a journey, not a destination. Whatever path you take, the journey is of much greater value than where you end up at the end.

[Political_Junkie]

30. Very well said.

:applause:

[cosmik debris]

26. And what if you pick the wrong god? n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. No, it is not a waste of time

It has led me to join with some wonderful people to accomplish things that we could not have accomplished alone. It has brought me fantastic artistic and cultural experiences infused with an indefinable spiritual element. It has helped me grow as a person. It has informed my worldview. It has given me a feeling of oneness with my ancestors and others who have gone before. It has given me an appreciation for the wisdom that is found in all ages. It has given me a sense of perspective.

Could I have received these things without being part of a religion? Most likely, but my experiences in church have been so multi-faceted that it's hard to imagine doing all these things in one place.

[beam me up scottie]

33. But cyn, think of all of the GUILT you're missing out on!

Halt.

Before you all pig pile on me, most of the people I know who thrive on the guilt are fundies. They are also the ones who want to make everyone else feel the same way.

Most.

I had to watch my girl friends struggle with being female and catholic when we were growing up.

Surprise, surprise, none of them raised their kids in the church.

While I despise organized religion because it is used to control people, I also think that personal faith can be a great comfort and source of inspiration - just not for me.

[Political_Junkie]

35. I won't pile on.

I've seen the damage myself. I too have come to despise organized religion.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Thanks.

"An it harm none, do as ye will".

:)

[Political_Junkie]

43. Absolutely.

:)

[JerseygirlCT]

48. Goodness, no!

I'm perfectly content that if I've been wrong, my religious practice has still enriched my life, and taught me a great deal. Attending services, praying - all of that - are not things I see as onerous obligations.

Truthfully, if they were just obligations, I wouldn't be doing them.

No time wasted - my time has been enhanced.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

56. As a (weak) atheist I may well be wrong, but I'm equally likely to be wrong in opposite directions.

There may, theoretically, be a God or gods or an afterlife. However, there's equally likely to be a God who punishes wearing blue and rewards eating sardines as vice versa, and the non-existence of any form of god is entirely consistent with all the observable evidence, so I don't worry about it too much.

[JerseygirlCT]

58. Which is fine

I happen to think that God cares very little about all those extraneous things - including religious beliefs or atheism. I think God cares a great deal about how we treat one another.

If you live a caring life, I don't really see why it should or would matter to anyone else beyond that, you know?

And likewise, if there is no God, then having lived that caring life - would it have been somehow a loss? I don't think so.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

60. It may well be, we just can't be sure.

It's entirely possible that there's a God who punishes all the good people and rewards all the bad ones, but because the reverse is equally likely there's nothing we can do about it.

[kwassa]

49. Church is rewarding every time I go.

Praying is simply the act of turning towards God. It enriches my life right now. The church also encompasses a wonderful group of people.

[ZombieHorde]

53. I personally don't believe people choose to believe or not believe in any religion.

I don't think I could honestly choose to believe in God tomorrow.

[I Have A Dream]

75. To me, this is the answer that best fits.

I'm the opposite of you, but I completely agree with what you say. To me, it's not a choice. It's just what is.

It's just being true to who you are. That's what life is about in my opinion. That is true for whether one is a believer or a non-believer. Both are equally good.

Thank you for stating it so clearly.

[Meshuga]

54. Being wrong doesn't really matter

It is what you get from it that matters. Some people believe but dislike religion so they don't waste their time with it. Others take a skeptical approach to beliefs but find usefulness in religion and this type of person would still cling to his/her community even if his/her level of belief is at its lowest.

[SidneyCarton]

57. Then I'm screwed anyway.

Let's be frank, life in general is a waste of time. We work like mad thinking that eventually we'll get ahead, only to realize that unless we were born sociopathic, or with a silver spoon in our mouth, we will live perpetually behind the eight ball. After years of struggle, heartbreak and labor, what do we get? If we're lucky, old and dead, otherwise just dead.

Maybe I'm wrong cynatnite, maybe there is no reason for anything. If so, keep it to yourself. I need to believe that life has a purpose beyond eat sleep screw and shit. If that is enough for you, good on you.

[cynatnite]

64. Life does have purpose and I don't think any of it is a waste...

As an atheist, I see this life as the only one we've got. We have an obligation to leave the world a better place than when we entered it. We also should live life to the fullest.

Life is what we make it.

[SidneyCarton]

66. And then we die.

And there is nothing.

What's the point of a life lived to the fullest? An introvert who never leaves his apartment, and the most Cosmopolitan world-traveler both die and end up as fertilizer.

As to obligations, If you're right, the only obligation I truly have is to provide good mulch for future generations.

If this is really all we have, then I should be able to spend my years as I see fit and you yours. If indeed you are right, then I choose to waste my years in prayer and worship, is this wrong? Some will choose wine, women and song. Some the pursuit of money, some will choose to fulfill lusts for violence and domination, and some will seek justice. If in the end we will all feed the worms and grow the grass anyway, what does it matter how we spend our time?

Life is indeed what we make of it. And if there is no afterlife, then why do you care that I've wasted my life? See to your own, it will profit you infinitely more than worrying about mine, I'm living it just fine on my own.

[Occam Bandage]

59. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

[struggle4progress]

61. "And the Light shines on in the Darkness -- and the Darkness has never understood it"

I am not sure that I understand what you really intend to ask with your question, What if you're wrong?

When I make my best effort to see the world and myself accurately, what I see is not always very inspiring. The recent history of the world includes (say) global war, military interventions, and "low-intensity conflicts."

http://www.dmko.info.nyud.net:8090/auschwitz1.jpeg
http://www.gallerym.com.nyud.net:8090/images/work/big/pulitzer_nick_ut_vietnam_napalm_kim_phuc_6872_L.jpg
http://math.dartmouth.edu.nyud.net:8090/~lamperti/photos/Mozote

These are examples (though not the only examples) of a darkness in my brothers and sisters, and in myself, that has been known as long as we have records. In some sense, we know what this darkness is: it is our self-centeredness -- our lust, our pride, our greed, our gluttony, our sloth, our anger, our envy -- our love of ourselves without our love of our neighbors. It is a constant source of suffering

http://www.themoonlitroad.com.nyud.net:8090/archives/teacher/images/whippedslave.jpg

One hopes

The people walking in darkness will see a great Light
The Light will shine on them living in a dark land

You want to believe that I could be wrong in this matter, but I think you are mistaken: it may be a struggle that one could win or lose -- but win or lose, there is still no question about what is right

[MaineCoast]

62. Good Question

I don't believe "church going, praying, or whatever" one does to express one's spiritual beliefs is a means to an end. Rather, the practices themselves provide something tangible right now, in this life. By doing these things I'm not guaranteed anything and I'm not looking for any guarantees. But by being present and actively pursuing something higher than mySelf through whatever spiritual/religous practices I choose, I end up making the HERE AND NOW better. Spiritual practices are disciplines to provide order and direction in one's life. I have beliefs and faith regardless of whether or not I go to church (though I happen to) - but the practice of going to church, for example, builds relationships in community and is really a social safety net, thus making my here-and-now (as well as my future)better.

[rd_kent]

65. How can it be a waste of time?

Disclaimer- I am an atheist

If a believer spends his or her entire life praying, and it turns out that there is no god, they will find out after they are dead. Kind of a pointless question dont you think? I mean, their faith is what drives their belief so if they enjoyed how they spent their time alive, then its not a waste of time. Sure, it may seem like a waste of time to you and I, but not to them. Time is relative to our point of view.
Questions like this are not good for anybody because it is based soley on opinion. Unless you can prove there is no god and then folks continue to pray, how can it be a waste of time to them?

[SarahJohn]

67. My first post

and one that is important to me. It is impossible for me to separate my faith and faith activities from my culture, my ethnic heritage, my daily life. I would have to say my entire life was a waste of time and I won't do that, so my answer is no.

[Marrah_G]

68. Then I am wrong.

I've never excluded that possibility.

Since my faith has enhanced my life in positive ways I do not consider time spent on it a waste of time.

If you are right and I was wrong it won't really make a difference, nor would I even know it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

72. I used to waste my time being a Christian.

I had faith. I prayed. I donated money when I didn't have it to spare. I fervently prayed to God to improve my life, to improve my health, to help me find a job, to lift my depression.

Nothing got better, none of the people at the two huge churches I went to would help me find a job. Prayer did absolutely NOTHING that I could tell. In fact, I got suicidal from listening to the preachers telling everyone what worthless people we were and how we were so terribly sinful, because Eve listened to a talking snake in a fairytale -- and besides, every good deed I did would be for naught -- because "our righteousness is as filthy rags".

What a bummer. :grr:

So now I believe in THE SUN.

Why? Because I KNOW it will come up every morning. Furthermore, that we can predict its exact point in the sky at any given latitude and longitude, for thousands of years in the past, and for thousands of years into the future. Same thing with the moon. We can predict eclipses and phases down to the second. And the knowledge of Newtonian physics and math enables NASA to send unmanned probes all the way out past Pluto, and to land probes on moons like Titan. That's pretty amazing.

And the only thing I worship is the coffeepot, the giver of life -- with the other Unitarians. :D