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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:00 AM
Original message
Suicide. It is certainly a moral issue. Is it a religious issue? Is it a right? Should it be a
crime?

What about assisted suicide?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/6284376.html

FWIIW, I think everyone should have that option (I would consider it under certain types of health circumstances), but I get skittish when other people are involved. Unless one is incapacitated in some way, I think that other people getting involved starts to cross a line that maybe should not be crossed...

Just my 2 cents...
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't think it is a moral issue.
It is a personal quality of life decision.

Whether or not it is a "religious" issue I suppose depends on whether or not you are religious, and what your religion says about it. Which is of course why religion doesn't have much utility in the public sphere.
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Well said, I agree
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Ah. Since I believe morality is subjective
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. "It is a personal quality of life decision."
What if the person is 11 years old?
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Are you asking what age we grant humans full autonomy?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I wasn't, I was asking if 11 year olds should have the right to kill themselves.
Should we legally allow it if the parents agree?
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I believe that yes, it should be legal...
I also believe that to be legal, any assisted suicide (for a minor or adult), would have to be required to meet certain criteria. Those criteria would, in essence, be some kind of proof of incurable physical suffering. Or, perhaps, proof of incurable mental suffering.

The word "incurable" implies a prediction about the future, and so any "proof" could not be required to be absolute in nature. Therefore, it would require the judgment of all parties involved. I assume that a physician might be required to back up any claims regarding incurability.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm not really an Athiest, but more in the don't think anyone really knows
category, and raised Catholic.

Suicide should be a private decision if and when things become intollerable, and should be no ones business, certainly not the law's or any "religious" overseers.

I also fall into the minding one's own business category.

mark
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. A right
It most definitely should be a right. What on this earth is "mine" more than my life?

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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Ditto. Keep all laws and churches out of my personal decisions, please.
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I agree.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. I have already warned my offspring
That there are circumstances where I would want to terminate my life.

I have assigned Medical Power Of Attorney and made my wishes clear in writing.

It is typical that the last few weeks of a person's life are the saddest, most expensive, least productive or enjoyable, and the most futile exercise of the medical arts possible. I'd be willing to skip that if it is okay with the rest of the world.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. Suicide is a tragedy, it argues a failing, not so much of the victim, but of their support system.
From the religious perspective, Suicide is complex. On the one hand, if life is to be considered a gift from God, to be given and taken in its own season, then Suicide is an invasion of divine prerogative. It is, as the Germans call it, Selbstmord (self-murder). However, when one takes into account the extreme circumstances of anguish, depression, and often horriffic pain, it becomes clear that in many cases, the Suicidal no longer have a clear vision of right and wrong, and as such, at least following the dictates of my faith, they cannot be considered wholly responsible for their actions.

Arguing from a Christian point of view, if one believes that Christ truly suffered not only the sins, but pains, afflictions and sorrows of all men so that he could be a truly empathetic advocate and judge, and if it is considered that Christ will judge all mankind individually, each according to their own understanding and experiences, then there is no excuse for the condemnation of the Suicidal on the basis of Suicide alone. One cannot know exactly what went through the mind of that poor tortured soul in the last moments of life, and as such one cannot in any sense feel justified in "throwing the first stone." Under such circumstances, one who believes is forced to admit that the condemnation or redemption of that individual is a matter between the victim and deity.

Should we have the right to take our own life? Yes. If one believes that freedom to act is God given, then that includes freedom to sin. While Suicide is hardly a victimless act (ask the loved ones left behind) it does not disrupt society in the manner which murder, theft, rape, assault or the various other crimes we prosecute do. In the end, regardless of who gave it to us, it is our life to use, or misuse according to our choices. The consequences will depend on the nature of eternity, but over such things the law of the land has no authority, and should not attempt to establish any.

I agree with you on Assisted Suicide, it is a far more complex and prickly issue. On the one hand, there are situations in which it is perfectly justifiable (Examples come to mind of "mercy killings" of mortally wounded comrades on the battlefield, who cannot be saved, but face a horrific and utterly painful death. However, in some cases, where the victim is lucid and stable, is not the act of assisted suicide a way of the victim attempting to pass off responsibility for their death to another? And in some cases, regardless of the motives of the assistant, are they not willfully taking the life of another person? That comes somewhat uncomfortably close to murder under certain circumstances. That said, where death is truly inevitable and the pain and wasting is unbearable by the patient, I can understand the practitioner who prescribes the massive dose of Morphine in order to allow the victim a peaceful passing. Our love of life should not extend to the maintenance of life to its most wretched and awful extremity. Yet such actions should be monitored and carefully considered, lest they become the province of the unscrupulous and cruel who will take pleasure from literally "getting away with murder." It should be done by professionals, and only ever with the consent of either the soon-to-be-deceased, or (as in the case of Terri Schaivo) their next of kin.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. As a general rule, one has a moral duty to oppose suicide, as it is a choice that cannot be undone.
But of course the exact moral imperatives associated with suicide do depend on the facts

The younger brother of a friend of mine committed suicide, at age 18, being despondent about a fight with his girlfriend. A neighbor of mine committed suicide in midlife, having lost her savings in bad investments. In either of those cases, had I known the situation and state of mind of the person, I think I would have had a moral obligation to attempt to prevent the suicide. That they killed themselves represents only sorrow and waste and loss

I know of some other cases where I think I had a moral obligation simply to keep my mouth shut: one case involved an elderly person, dying of an untreatable cancer, who remained lucid to the end, surrounded by family, and who made a deliberate decision not to eat. I would have enjoyed having more conversations with her -- but she had lived a long full active life, the cancer was taking a predictable toll, and her quality of life was deteriorating quickly. This didn't involve a health condition that would stabilize with a temporary depression she might eventually overcome. The best estimates were that she might have lived a month or two longer. Nobody tried to talk her into it: she herself decided against eating more
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