Gethsemane and Jesus's last words on the cross

[BurtWorm]

Who was around to record what Jesus did, thought and said?

[Hepburn]

1. Faux Snooze?

...:shrug:

[BurtWorm]

2. Maybe his press office put out a release?

[Glorfindel]

6. The Gospel according to Tim Rice & Andrew Lloyd Webber

Caiaphas: You say you're the son of God in all your handouts. Well, is it true?

Jesus: That's what you say.

[blueworld]

3. His mother was at the foot of the cross

As were at least one of His apostles. And I didn't think specific words were recorded about that; only His fear and the fact that He prayed. Perhaps He told the apostles that later before He was arrested?

[BurtWorm]

8. The seven last words of Jesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayings_of_Jesus_on_the_cross

The seven sayings form part of a Christian meditation that is often used during Lent, Holy Week and Good Friday. The traditional order of the sayings is:

1. Father forgive them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).
2. Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
3. Woman, behold your son: behold your mother (John 19:26-27).
4. Eli Eli lama sabachthani? ("My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?", Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34).
5. I thirst (John 19:28).
6. It is finished (John 19:30).
7. Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (Luke 23:46).
As can be seen from the above list, not all seven sayings can be found in any one account of Jesus' crucifixion. The ordering is a harmonisation of the texts from each of the four canonical gospels. In the gospels of Matthew and Mark, Jesus is quoted in Aramaic, shouting the fourth phrase only, and cries out wordlessly before dying. In Luke's Gospel, the first, second, and seventh sayings occur. The third, fifth and sixth sayings can only be found in John's Gospel. In other words:

* According to Matthew:
o Eli Eli lama sabachthani
* According to Mark:
o Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani
* According to Luke:
o Father forgive them, for they know not what they do (in response to a mocking crowd)
o Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise (in response to one of the two thieves crucified next to him)
o Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (last words)
* According to John:
o Woman, behold your son: behold your mother (directed at Mary, the mother of Jesus, either as a self reference, or as a reference to the beloved disciple and an instruction to the disciple himself)
o I thirst (just before a wetted sponge, mentioned by all the Canonical Gospels, is offered)
o It is finished (last words)

[dmallind]

10. The trouble with melding conflicting accounts

By assuming that not everybody got the handle on all the last words Jesus said (but that he said them all) is that we then have to apply the same reasoning to the rest of the crucifixion story.

It's perfectly OK to imagine that decades later, the writers of the gospels only remembered, or heard from those who remembered, various snippets of a pretty innocuous and fairly reasonable (if we accept the scenario as given) final set of utterances. But this "add them all together" approach then assumes that only Matthew happened to remember the dead rising from their graves and the sky turning black and the temple curtain falling apart. That's not something that the others, or the eyewitnesses they relied on, would be likely to forget now is it? Or likely to leave out as an editorial snip that didn't make for a good story either! Kind of like the slaughter of an entire generation at the other end of the story.

It's much more reasonable to assume we're talking about various versions of various stories for which there were no existing eyewitnesses when we have divergences of such magnitude.

[Nihil]

12. Not forgetting ...

"I can see your house from here!"

:-)

[Orrex]

16. Gosh! He was pretty chatty for a guy about to asphyxiate!

[Glorfindel]

4. Several people heard and saw him - John the Beloved Disciple for one

And he recorded what he saw and heard

"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son!" Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home." (John 19:25-27, NKJV)

I don't recall anyone reporting on what Jesus actually thought, though. :shrug:

[Hepburn]

7. Where does it say in your quote that at this alleged scene...

...anyone recorded anything? :shrug:

[Deep13]

13. How do you know it's John? nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. Some of his followers were present at the crucifixion

There's an incident in which Jesus tells one of the disciples to take care of his mother. As far as the garden of Gethsemane is concerned, he had three disciples with him, but according to the story, they fell asleep.

[elocs]

9. How do we know for sure what ANYONE said 2000 years ago?

Although we do have the attitude today that unless there is an actual video, then it never really happened because after all, a video cannot be faked so it would be absolute proof.

[Deep13]

15. Clearly, we don't know.

The problem is that the Bible is supposed to be holy in origin and, therefore, inerrant. Pat Robertson once said that if one doubts the literal truth of any part of the Bible then there is nothing to prevent us from discounting the whole thing. For once I actually agree with him, but not in a way he intended.

[Occam Bandage]

11. Perhaps he told them during his Resurrection. nt

[Deep13]

14. The gospels were written decades after the fact by nonwitnesses.

They are based on earlier oral traditions based on events everyone assumes occurred in around 33 CE. They are derivative stories based on earlier myths from the OT and other belief systems and were written to make a kind of liturgical calendar. The earliest foundational writings of Christianity are Paul's letters and do not mention the details of JC's life. The gospels cite historical events that never happened and two contradictory lineages of JC, both traced through Joseph who was not his dad anyway.

Consequently, one should not rely on the gospels for any kind of accuracy.

[deutsey]

17. The gospels are faith documents, not journalistic accounts

They are written records from early Christian communities that were trying to work out their understanding of Jesus (his life, death, and resurrection). From what I've learned, early followers of Jesus expected his imminent return, which is why there was only initially an oral tradition and Paul's letters. These mostly focused on the resurrection and sayings of Jesus. Then, as a new generation of followers came along, they wanted to know more about Jesus...where did he come from, what did he do, why was he here, how did he die, etc.

There are many other gospels other than the four in the biblical canon. Mark is the earliest (written for a community under persecution and still anticipating the imminent return of Jesus), followed by Matthew (written after sects of Jesus' followers that were expelled from synagogues) and Luke (written for a more general, non-Jewish community). From what I understand, John almost didn't make it into the canon because of it gnostic influences (I think that was the reason).

I was always confused about the contradictory lineages until I came to understand the faith purpose of the gospels. In Matthew, the author is trying to establish that Jesus is the fulfillment of Jewish hopes for a messiah (which makes sense after the expulsion of Jesus' early followers--who considered themselves Jews--from synagouges). The lineage in Luke is trying to establish that Jesus is the new Adam and, therefore, the universal hope of redemption for everyone, not just the Jewish messiah.

I also am intrigued by the women that Matthew cites as part of Jesus' lineage. I don't have the gospel here with me, nor do I have the specific names, but each one had some kind of scandal or outsider mark against them. I've wondered if that was addressing the "scandal" of Mary's pregnancy before her marriage. Just speculation.

[Taitertots]

18. No one was around

The only text we have is written by people who never met Jesus and has been modified by ruling bodies for centuries.

[stopbush]

19. There was no one around to record his words in Gethsemane.

The disciples were all asleep.

This incident as reported in the Bible is evidence that the first gospel written - Mark - was written as a religious allegory, and that it is not at all a history or biography. Characters in novels and other stories often talk to themselves. Sometimes, the authors tell us what a character is thinking, even if they don't say it aloud.

Why don't people ever ruminate on this obvious Holy Mackerel moment? This is clear evidence that Mark's Gospel is a fictional story that avails itself of standard literary devices that have existed from time immemorial.

Either that, or Jesus came back to his sleeping disciples and upon arousing them, gave a full account of everything he said while off praying. But as the Bible doesn't record that happening, nor does it report anybody around to write it down, I'll go with a made-up story from start to finish.