Should Christians be allowed to have Bible study in their home?

[spin]

SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold bible studies in their home, 10News reported.

Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife.

Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"

The county employee notified the couple that the small bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of county regulations, according to Broyles.

Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars.
http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html

[Ezlivin]

1. Hell yes

And I'm saying that as a born-again atheist.

As long as they're not trying to stuff a thousand people into a tiny house and block the street with cars, I see no reason why they can't meet.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. Only if the same laws apply to everyone else

Check mate.

[Liberal_in_LA]

3. Neighbors must have complained. would most of us be ok with our direct neighbor holding a weekly

party for 15 people? I guess this bible study is equally annoying to the neighbors.

[jgraz]

4. Should Christians be allowed to violate zoning laws under the guise of religious study?

Imagine a weekly meeting in your neighborhood that takes up 15 residential parking spaces for several hours. That's why they have zoning laws.

[brendan120678]

10. Should zoning laws be able to trump the First Amendment?

[ZombieHorde]

22. How do you think the 1st amendment would be violated? nt

[humblebum]

34. Uh? Maybe" free exercise thereof "?

How much company are you allowed to have visiting your home? However, it might be that the meetings were causing a continual parking problem, in which case the city needed to act somehow. Or it may even be a clear violation of C & S.

[ZombieHorde]

45. The owners of the house are still free to say what they wish. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

24. Actually, yes

Freedom of religion trumps parking spaces.

[jgraz]

35. Not in any town you or I have lived in

Don't believe me? Put up a sign in your yard declaring your house the First Church of Jerseygirl. See how long it takes for you to get a letter from the city.

[DeSwiss]

48. Actually, no it doesn't.

Since it is the civil law under the Constitution which guarantees the right of religious expression, the civil authority which grants it, can only be viewed as superior. Otherwise how could civil law possibly grant any freedoms at all?

- Of course, that hasn't stop religion from trying to make it so. But then, religion has always thought it was all that and a bag o' chips.....

"And then there's the story of a man who helped a moth out of its chrysalis, only to see it eaten by a bird a short time later because it couldn't fly properly - it hadn't developed the strength to fly, because it had been deprived of it's struggle."

[JerseygirlCT]

51. Those rights outlined in the Bill of Rights are seen to come

before the law, not given by the law.

That aside, they most certainly wouldn't have been granted by municipal civil authorities.

Nice try, though.

[DeSwiss]

52. Yeah right.

- Whatever.....

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. fifteen people is NOT a small gathering.

Not in a residential neighborhood that is not equipped to deal with excess traffic. In the comments, people compare it to superbowl parties and tupperware parties - neither of which occur on a weekly, or oftener, basis. The county ordnance, from my interpretation, is about traffic congestion and liability for public meetings. If this guy is a pastor, he has a church - there's no reason why they can't meet at the church. OTOH, he could make his residence compliant by paving over his yard - if the neighborhood is zoned for anything other than residences, that is.

Why do the religious insist on special privileges?

[damntexdem]

12. The problem isn't freedom of religion, it's cars.

How interesting that constitutional freedoms are limited because of our transportation and built-environment practices.

And rules like this can be used against political organizing, or just political discussion groups, in one's own home. For that matter, weekly football-watching parties COULD occur in football season, but be proscribed by these rules.

In short, a myriad of means whereby urban Americans might build community are made illegal because they take up too many parking places.

[brendan120678]

14. Continuing my history of not reading the linked article...

isn't parking in a city street generally on a "first-come, first-serve" basis? I have a parking spot that I usually like to park at out front of my house. However, if someone else gets thee first...oh well; I have to park a little further down the street.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Not urban - sub-urban.

I've lived in places that if the neighbors had a weekly gathering of 15+ people - for ANY reason - it would shut the neighborhood down. I don't care if they are having services, watching football, or having orgies - I WOULD call the police and complain if I could not get in and out of my drive.

It's about being good neighbors, IMO.

[JerseygirlCT]

26. But the "fault" there lies not with the hosts, but with those parking

illegally. So ticket them.

If the street allows parking, then it's just too bad. Bad neighbors, maybe, but utterly within their rights to have gatherings whenever they wish.

[JerseygirlCT]

25. Yes, it is frighteningly ironic, isn't it?

Freedom of religion, freedom of assembly... forget them, it's all about the spaces.

Nuts.

If their guests are parked illegally, ticket them. This isn't about the hosts at all.

[Ikonoklast]

6. I'm not allowed to have that many cars in front of my house, either.

The city has the right to regulate parking and traffic, as well as zoning violations.

The excuse of hiding begind a religious gathering doesn't hold water. They need to rent a room somewhere, just like many other groups do, in order to hold meetings.

It's a residence, not a public hall.

[JerseygirlCT]

41. No

They can continue to have as many people to their home as they like. The visitors need to find a way not to violate parking restrictions.

This has nothing to do with having people over, and it most definitely has nothing to do with whether while they're there they're praying.

If parking is an issue, then that needs to be dealt with, period. Making this into anything more than a problem with parking begins to lean into violated rights to religious freedom and freedom of assembly.

[Why Syzygy]

43. From the photo on the story ..

They could park about 7-8 cars within their own property. That may not be the issue.

[liberal N proud]

7. Oh for Christ's sake

These laws prohibiting a handful of people from meeting for any purpose is pure crap.

By those standards one couldn't even have a super bowl watch party or family reunion. What if a member of the family dies, are friends not allowed to visit and pay their respects to the family?

[T Wolf]

15. You are describing rare or one-time events. How about if your neighbor had gatherings of 15-20

people (and their cars) several times a week and you were prevented from getting near your house.

Would that be OK?

[liberal N proud]

19. If they are violating parking laws, ticket and tow

But if 15 - 20 people want to visit my neighbor, good for them, they have lots of friends.

You don't handle parking problems with limits on how many people you can have visit you home.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. Exactly. nt

[David__77]

8. The ordinance should be changed.

It's ridiculous. But the same rules should apply for religious and secular gatherings.

[Political Tiger]

9. Something tells me there is more to the story

The Western Center For Law & Policy is a religious Reich-wing group, so anything that comes from them should be viewed with deep suspicion.

[mn9driver]

11. This is a misapplication of the law.

San Diego county law requires that use of land for "religious assembly" be approved using a "major use permit". The purpose is obviously to regulate the construction of large churches; if you look at the application fee, thousands of dollars are allotted for engineering, environmental impact, and other studies.

This county inspector will be slapped down in a big hurry.

[DeSwiss]

49. Totally disagree.

Land use laws and policies are the only thing that stops us from becoming the Hatfields and the McCoys.

I do not want my neighbor to begin choking up the public right-of-way for their own personal use. All of us in my community have a right to the fair use of the public right-of way, and it is for these reasons in part that residential zoning does not allow for commercial uses due to the increase cost of construction and the maintenance of public rights-of way.

No individual has a right to cause the community at-large to bear a cost that inordinately nor disproportionately higher than any other citizen's use, solely to allow then to exercise their religious freedoms. Land-use policies for religious assembly in churches and commercial buildings are on the books for a reason. That's why we have to use 'em.

[elshiva]

50. True. They could try having their meetings at a church, for goodness sakes.

[dmallind]

13. Absolutely.

They can't run a business from their home if zoning does not permit it, but assuming they are not charging an entrance free what could possibly be wrong? I don't buy the parking issue. I am pretty sure others have gatherings of 15 people (do they all come in one car each?) in the same area.

[T Wolf]

16. Several times a week? There is the issue - not what happens at the event. nt

[moobu2]

17. This is a church operation and they don’t want to get a permit

and yes, if they violate zoning, they should be forced to comply with the law. I bet that you could hear them chanting and singing hymns a block away. It’s very annoying for someone who doesn’t want to hear that crap. I'd raise hell if they tried that near me.

[struggle4progress]

18. Should we believe the Western Center For Law & Policy?

Who endorsed Prop 8?
Author: YubaNet
Published on Nov 6, 2008 - 10:14:38 AM
... ORGANIZATIONS: ...
The Western Center for Law & Policy ...
http://yubanet.com/regional/Who-endorsed-Prop-8_printer.php

State’s marriage amendment drive heads into final month; Evangelicals urged to step up signature collection
Christian Examiner staff report
OINT LOMA, Calif. — A constitutional amendment petition that designates marriage as between one man and one woman has garnered thousands of California signatures statewide, aided by a new network of Southland pastors ... They were joined by attorneys Dean Broyles and James Griffiths of the Western Center for Law and Policy in Escondido ... http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Mar08/SC_Mar08_01.html

[Why Syzygy]

29. The Western Center For Law & Policy

website now has a .pdf copy of the demand letter. It names David and Mary Jones of Chula Vista.
This is his church:
http://www.thelearnerguys.com/Welcome.html

Bible Study Fellowships

Home Fellowships are small groups that gather weekly at homes in the community. They are modeled after the New Testament church in Acts 2:42-47, and they encourage individuals to build friendships, discuss life principles from the Bible and help meet each others needs. For a location and description of one near you, please contact

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2007/apr/26/south-bay-community-church-national-city/

"This is one of the best churches that I've ever been to," said congregant John. "It's kind of like God's little secret. If you come here at nine o'clock, you'll see the other room set up just like a regular restaurant." The patrons: homeless souls picked up from downtown and North Park. "We try to treat them like royalty -- 'Whatever you do for the least of these,'" explained Ricky, an assistant to the pastor. "Every week, we pick up about 50 people and bring them here for a big breakfast. We'll have anything from cereal to eggs and toast to pancakes. Then they go through God's Closet" -- a room full of donated clothes, organized by size and style -- and pick an outfit. "Then they attend the service, and they get a sack lunch when they depart."

[struggle4progress]

31. Many thanks. That is informative. It is interesting that they are Biblical literalists,

that they teach children should be punished by "the rod," and that they expel people from their church for sexual violations

I suppose the very large building at 2400 Euclid shown on the "ministeries" page is the "church." Google Earth shows it to be recent and to have a substantial parking lot. It is also apparently the "upper campus" of "Kuyper Preparatory School"; see http://www.kuyperprep.org/about-kps/
The "lower campus" of "Kuyper Preparatory School" is apparently also "Zion Christian Fellowship" and "Highland Park Church" Application to the school requires a "pastor's certificate": "Though both parents are not required to be Christians, one parent is required to be a Christian." The school stresses "American heritage"

The Chula Vista zipcode is a fairly nice neighborhood; swimming pools are common; maybe ten or fifteen minutes from the church. It is no doubt zoned residentially

So we're looking at economically comfortable fundamentalists, whose church is also a school that emphasizes "Christianity" and "America"

[jgraz]

36. So it's a regular meeting of 15 profoundly mentally ill people

I can't see why the neighbors would have a problem with that. :eyes:

[struggle4progress]

40. As pointed out upthread, parking may be the concern. It's still unclear what the actual facts are

[Why Syzygy]

42. Something that ocurred to me..

If they pick up 50 homeless people for Sunday services, it makes me wonder if this study is for the or some homeless. That would throw some neighbors into fits.

As you say, there's a lot we don't know.

[struggle4progress]

44. "... The county claims Jones’ home isn’t zoned for parking, but he doesn’t see that as an issue ...

However, according to Chandra Wallar, a San Diego County representative, someone filed a complaint last month stating the bible study was causing parking troubles in the cul-de-sac.

The county looked into the complaint. 'There was parking that prevented access for emergency vehicles, and there was parking on the resident lot which violates our code,' Wallar says ..."

San Diego Fines Pastor for Bible Study
Updated: Friday, 29 May 2009, 4:27 PM CDT
Published : Friday, 29 May 2009, 3:31 PM CDT
http://www.myfoxal.com/dpp/news/national/dpgo_San_Diego_Fines_Pastor_for_Bible_Study_mb_05292009_2523807

[struggle4progress]

32. More:

Dave Jones says he graduated from "Christian Heritage College," which seems to be in El Cajon:

Christian Heritage College - El Cajon
2100 Greenfield Dr
El Cajon, CA 92019
http://www.ed-reference.us/11100/california/el+cajon/aviation/christian+heritage+college+-+el+cajon-408/

Searching for the address yields "San Diego Christian College" -- which sports Carrie Prejean on the front page as a "SDCC student": http://www.sdcc.edu/

Curiously (see post #20 below) Carrie has recently been on Fox beating the drum for this case

It is astonishingly coincidental

[struggle4progress]

20. Oh, look, Fox News is covering it: here's the NewsHounds rundown

... And today, we have professional Christian Miss California, Carrie Prejean, and Steve Doocy affirming the story ... Steve and Carrie provided a supportive environment to a San Diego pastor who, according to the WND article, claims that the county, after “interrogating” his wife about the prayer group, sent a letter stating that if a permit were not obtained for the meetings, a fine would be levied. After Steve summarized the situation, Carrie said “unbelievable.” (There is a future for her at Fox News!) ... Doocy asked if it was correct that the county official said that more than 10 to 15 people at the house necessitated a permit. The pastor said that the county person “didn’t really say it that way…” That should have been the cue to ask for some clarification - however, Carrie then commented about how, when she heard this story, “she could not really believe it.” (Yeah, you and me both!) ... Not surprisingly, “Fair and balanced” Fox&Friends made no effort to get the county’s take on the issue unlike World Net Daily which “contacted a spokeswoman for San Diego County, who acknowledged the description of the incident seemed "bizarre," but who was unable to locate the details of the account. She simply could not provide comment yet, she said, until she could become familiar with the case.” But ,hey, who needs the facts when you’ve got propaganda to push and a meme to reinforce ... http://www.newshounds.us/2009/05/27/foxfriends_more_persecuted_christians.php

[spin]

28. Fox News is never "fair and balanced". (n/t)

[JerseygirlCT]

23. Oh for Pete's sake

This is idiotic.

[TZ]

38. I agree.

People have stuff like bridge nights/poker nights ect where they have largish groups over on a regular basis.

[and-justice-for-all]

30. How odd...

So if you have a large family and want to have a cook out, it has to be less than 15 people?

[Strong Atheist]

33. Oh, for Pete's sake! As long as they are not scaring the horses, this is just ridiculous. Small

groups should be allowed to do whatever first amendment activities they want in their homes...

[Silent3]

37. The last thing we need to do is feed their persecution complex. n/t

[centristgrandpa]

39. double edged...

At least they are not raiding the medical marijuana outlets...

[Igel]

46. The church I joined when I was 20

met regularly in a woman's home. There were 10-15 people there every Saturday, sometimes more.

No problem with the neighbors--we seldom sang any hymns, but it was a "Bible study" format, not a sermon per se. We would have been very surprised had people complained, and been rather irritated had somebody tried to tell the hostess that she needed a permit to have people over.

Usually there were 5-6 cars, sometimes fewer. It was never one person per car.

[elshiva]

47. "It was never one person per car." Good point.

Car pooling could be the answer.

[charlie]

53. It's over

The county backed down.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/