Kristof: Religion and Women

[marginlized]

NY Time's Nicholas Kristof this morning:

"Religions derive their power and popularity in part from the ethical compass they offer. So why do so many faiths help perpetuate something that most of us regard as profoundly unethical: the oppression of women?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/opinion/10kristof.html

[trotsky]

1. Woe to the Women: The Bible Tells Me So

http://www.amazon.com/Woe-Women-Bible-Tells-Me/dp/1877733024

Great book.

[yellerpup]

2. The NY Times

is rocking this morning. Kristof, Rich, et al, laying down some good words.

[iamjoy]

3. Convenient to Blame Religion

As the article mentioned, religion has at times been used to promote justice. The Quakers and other religious groups in this country were also behind the early woman's rights movement as well as the abolition movement.

I think religion has been used as an excuse and justification to oppress women - but it isn't really the cause. The cause is really might makes right. In general, men are physically stronger than women. Also, because women bear children, historically, much of their lives would have been focused on caring for the young of our species. Since for much of their lives a woman would have either been pregnant and/or nursing, she needed a man to help provide for her. If that wasn't the case, men never would have been able to write those laws and claim they came from God.

As for the Koran saying a woman could inherit less than a man, I think it may have actually been an improvement over other cultures that may not have allowed a woman to inherit at all.

It's just food for thought. I am glad to see world leaders tackle this subject because we can never have justice in the world if there is so much sexism - whatever the reason for it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

4. +1 !!!!

Might makes right.... indeed. Christian crusades, Invading nomads, Islamic tribalists... if they're interested in maintaining their power, they'll find ways to enforce it; religion is one convenient way.

I've often thought that the reason sexism is so resistant to change is that women don't back up their demands with "might".

[Captain Hilts]

6. All religions are male-dominated and set social standards that kids learn early. nt

[trotsky]

8. But evidently you can't blame the religion itself for that.

:shrug:

[roguevalley]

11. if you remove the religion from the early cultures that spawned

patriarchy, they would still stand on women's necks because it was a matter of maintaining property and heirs to property. economics is the root of all evil from the beginning of time when the first person decided that property and territory mattered.

[trotsky]

13. I think it went hand-in-hand.

The religion enabled the patriarchy - by ordaining it as part of the sacred order. Religion's whole shtick has been providing an answer so people stop asking questions and just accept what the priest/king is telling them.

[roguevalley]

15. Since the religions of the world were feminine before the rise of

patriarchy based on property, the religion was the excuse of the patriarchy to rule. You and I are in the same ballpark. :)

[MorningGlow]

19. Wanna bet?

;) Blessed be! :hi:

[DeSwiss]

12. I beg to differ, but what you are saying is not only untrue.....

...it makes no sense when one realizes that http://www.archive.org/details/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft">religion was the sole invention of man.

"I think religion has been used as an excuse and justification to oppress women - but it isn't really the cause. The cause is really might makes right. In general, men are physically stronger than women. Also, because women bear children, historically, much of their lives would have been focused on caring for the young of our species."

{Shakes head} As with all other aspects of religion this apologia is mixed in a smidgen of truth, but is made almost completely from a pack convenient UNTRUTHS.

What you're saying boils down to this: Men have used religion as a tool of oppression of women (among others, such as with my slave ancestors - but that's another story). Prior to the Stone Age women were venerated for their POWER to give life - not considered WEAK because of it. And their importance is reflected in their positions and very existence as http://www.authorama.com/god-idea-of-the-ancients-1.html">GODDESSES in the various pantheons of gods of so many different civilizations -- which serves to verify this fact. There was always an acknowledgment of the importance of women within these pantheons, as there were in life in-general from what the archeological record tells us. That is until the age of the bull and the ram. The discovery and use of metals to make war, and the advent of agriculture which allowed for the enrichment of civilizations who began to possess things men believed it worthy of going to war over.

It is here when (as shown through objective and historical academic sources, rather than the Abrahamic religion's own self-serving and tainted renditions of their pasts), that we first begin to see arguments for monotheism (and it was from the http://www.cedarseed.com/air/monoegypt.html">Egyptians, not the Hebrews where this phenomena is first seen). It is here when we first begin to see religion unceremoniously drop women from any importance whatsoever -- with this "new" religion of Judaism. And this feature the oppression of women was continued and expanded with the development of the alternative-religions which formed from it: Christianity and Islam.

The Abrahamic religions justified the oppression of women from their beginnings. The oppression of women was a cultural feature of the Semitic races and nomadic tribes of the desert of this time. These were the same people who later became known as the Hebrews and Arabs. So the Abrahamic religions made the oppression sanctified and holy. Because their god said it was so. So in this instance, to NOT oppress women, was to go against what their god said. These barbaric religions gave men the religious justification that they needed to address what was no doubt at least some psychological conflict created from the oppression and enslavement of one's own children.

The Abrahamic religions made women into PROPERTY. The Abrahamic religions served to keep women in their places and it taught them it was their place from the time they were children so that they grew up believing that they would die horrible deaths and endure terrible burning pain for an eternity if they didn't act like "good property." The Abrahamic religions helped men to justify their treatment of women, as they would their cattle or their sheep. And if one reads these these Abrahamic religions, one will quickly discern that only sons had any true value to them and their god. And every word from their so-called "HOLY BOOKS" confirms this. So trying to wiggle-out religion's responsibility now, seems a bit disingenuous. At least it does to me. After the Abrahamic religions have worked so hard to achieve this status for men over women, to now try to diminish their role in this oppression of women -- after it has worked so hard to put and keep women in their places -- distorts its true history -- and dishonors the truth.

And then there is one other aspect of all this about religion which confirms that they weren't just some innocent bystanders who didn't do anything to oppress women because it was the men all along (as if it weren't the men {sigh} who were the one's running religion anyway): Religion is the only one who has claimed to know the mind of god. Religion is the only one who has claimed to speak for god. And religion is the only one who claims to have written down the words directly from god's mouth. This same Abrahamic god who turns women into chattel. So whichever way you cut it, religion is right in the middle of the oppression of women. One could argue that the male of the species has simply used religion this way, but then men created this religion. So religion in this instance in particular -- is merely an extension of man. And religion and man expects for it to continue to keep women in their places, so that they might carry-on with their wars and their killing of each other with their newest weapons that they have come up with. Because god is really on THEIR side, not the other guy's.


- And killing that is no doubt still being inspired to prove their love for their desert/storm/warrior god -- Yahweh-Jesus-TheHolyGhost-Allah.







http://www.archive.org/details/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft">Bible Myths and Parallels in other Pagan Religions

http://www.authorama.com/god-idea-of-the-ancients-1.html">The God-Idea of the Ancients (or Sex in Religion)

[trotsky]

14. Great post! n/t

[iamjoy]

16. Chicken or Egg

yes, men created religion - I mentioned that. Man created religion and then used it to oppress women. Why was man able to do this? Why didn't women create religion and use it to claim equality? I think the oppression of women preceded Abrahamic religions. These religions just made it a lot easier. Now men had an excuse that sounded good.

Furthermore, as for ancient cultures, women couldn't own property in ancient Greece, either. Ancient Rome had the "Vestal Virgins." It sounds like a lofty position for women, but it extolled chastity and obedience in women - much as the "myth" of the Virgin Mary does in Christianity. For one of the ancient Roman priestesses to disobey or have sex was punishable by death. In that regard it doesn't seem ancient Pagan religions were much better than mono-theistic ones.

There are studies to indicate that women in Egypt had an equivalent legal status to men, but Ramses still had multiple wives and concubines - a freedom I doubt those women themselves had.

Because I believe men wrote the bible and men created religion, I also think the oppression of women pre-dated religion.

[Jim__]

18. I believe ritual dance may have led to (created) religion - very early in human history.

When people first migrated out of Africa, 50,000 years ago, they already had religion in the form of ritual dance. (see, for instance, The Faith Instinct: How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures - controversial, but well-documented book). And also, from a matriarchal perspective, Claudia von Werlhof - I don't know how accepted her view is, but she does cite sources for her opinion that patriarchy probably replace matriarchy in a time of emergency: climat change, war, etc.

I don't think either the development of religion or of patriarchy are as simple, nor as well-known, as people believe.

[Deep13]

17. It's really convenient when you look at the rule, not the exceptions. nt

[Captain Hilts]

5. Well said. nt

[ZombieHorde]

7. Some religions, such as some occult religions, preach equal treatment of men and women.

Most mainstream religions are definitely bigoted against women, and many monotheist religions are bigoted against the GBLT communities as well.

[pokerfan]

9. and killing homosexuals

The New York Times released a report about the link between three anti-gay American evangelicals and a bill in Uganda that would make homosexuality punishable by death.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/scavenger/detail?entry_id=54619

That's some ethical compass.

[darkstar3]

10. You wanna see an example of unethical oppression of women?

My mom's "non-denominational" church lost their pastor in early 2009. They searched high and low for someone to serve as their pastor, and eventually they turned to the one person in the church who possessed more Biblical, theological, and educational knowledge than anyone else: a retired Social Studies teacher, who just happened to be a woman.

Pretty progressive, right? Not so much. The name of her newly created position is "Interim Teacher." Is that a grotesque enough evasion, or what? She's actually serving as a pastor, but they can't call her a pastor because they believe it is against the Bible for women to actually BE pastors. Meanwhile, as she serves as "the best speaker we've ever had" (mother's quote), they continue their search for a real pastor.

As a board member, as a Sunday School teacher, and as an organizer of various church events, this woman has given nothing but excellent service to this church for at least 3 decades, but she will be summarily removed from the best post she's ever held when a male pastor is found. Disgusting...

[Laura902]

20. wow that is disgusting and blatant sexism! n/t