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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-14-10 01:28 PM
Original message
Skeptics and Humanist Aid Relief Efforts (SHARE) is accepting disaster-relief donations for Haiti


DONATE: http://ga1.org/ct/g1111111gRvM/

The Center for Inquiry is accepting disaster-relief donations through its S.H.A.R.E. program to support those providing care to the survivors of the 7.0 earthquake that struck Jan. 12 near the capital city of Port-au-Prince, Haiti.

All donations—100 percent with no operating costs retained—will be sent directly to the secular aid group Doctors Without Borders, which suffered the loss of all three of its medical facilities and is working against difficulties to provide the basics of first-aid care and stabilization.

The needs of those who’ve lost their family members, their homes, and their livelihoods will be very great. Your assistance will make a huge difference for the victims of this tragic disaster. Please join us and other humanists and skeptics as we help those in need in this time of crisis.

A contribution of any amount would be greatly appreciated by everyone at the Center for Inquiry. Thank you for your continued support of our work, and please consider a donation to S.H.A.R.E. in honor of those in Haiti who need help.

Please make your contribution to S.H.A.R.E. directly by clicking here. All funds sent to S.H.A.R.E. are tax exempt in the United States. http://ga1.org/ct/g1111111gRvM/

S.H.A.R.E. has been recently renamed the Skeptics and Humanist Aid and Relief Effort and has now become a program of the wider-reaching Center for Inquiry, responding to the need to continue providing an alternative for those who wish to contribute to charitable efforts without the intermediary of a religious organization in this time of great need.

DONATE: http://ga1.org/ct/g1111111gRvM/



More:
http://ga1.org/center_for_inquiry/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=26914794

Hat-tip to: http://twitter.com/SkeptInquiry/status/7756594608




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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-14-10 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. thanks for posting this
Payday is tomorrow, we were wondering where to make our donation.
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Chicago dyke Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-14-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. yes, thank you.
very much. we atheists don't get enough credit for our charity.
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-14-10 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kick
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. Why shouldn't people just give directly to Doctors Without Borders?
What benefit is there in having SHARE as a middleman? What's the advantage in giving to SHARE instead? I don't get it.
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uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. What difference does it make?
I would give directly to MSF (Doctors Without Borders). I am not familiar with SHARE, but the people who organized it probably did so for a good reason. But in this instance, I don't see any reason to give to them instead of donating directly to MSF.

I think some people defensive over the "where are the atheist charities?" canard, but they shouldn't be. It is a very, very stupid argument. Inevitably, it is going to be re-litigated in this thread. I will say this:

It doesn't matter to me whether or not relief workers in Haiti believe in God. What matters to me is that they have the resources to help those who are suffering. There is no reason why MSF or the Red Cross should have a stance on whether God exists, because it is totally irrelevant to the work they do.

Where are the atheist relief organizations? Well, where are the atheist pharmacies and tanning salons? Where are the atheist train stations and birdwatching clubs? Belief in God has nothing to do with what those organizations and establishments do. No doubt there are all manner of businesses, clubs and charities run by atheists. But there is no reason to inject a debate about God into the operation of those organizations. The existence of God is quite irrelevant. Pointing out that the secular relief organizations are not explicitly or vocally atheist means nothing.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I had never heard of SHARE or the organizations mentioned
in the OP. It is looking like perhaps they don't actually do any charitable work, but just put themselves in as a middleman between people who donate money and charities like MSF. That seems like a rather cynical ploy to garner favorable publicity for atheism by making it appear that this atheist group is actually doing charitable work, when in fact, they aren't.

I of course do not want to make unwarranted assumptions, and if in fact these groups are doing charitable work, then my comments above do not apply.

As for your argument that it does not make any difference whether charitable organizations believe in God or not, I agree and disagree. I agree that non-believers can do good (which I define as doing God's will) despite their lack of belief. Charitable work is one example of doing God's will. However, I disagree with your argument for the following reason: Many atheists enjoy pointing out the bad things that some believers do in the name of religion, and those same atheists contend that evil done by atheist dictators or atheist governments or atheist people is never done in the name of atheism. If such arguments are to be made, the atheists making them must accept the counterpoint that Christian believers do a lot of good things because of their religion, and examples of atheists doing good things because of their atheism are rather sparse if not entirely nonexistent. Therefore, it could be concluded that the Christian religion is good as contrasted with atheism, because it motivates people to do good things.
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uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think SHARE was founded to help facilitate giving by people associated
with the Council for Inquiry. There's no reason to characterize what they do as a sham. As far as I have seen (and I may be wrong) they don't do any charitable work themselves. But they raise funds for secular charities, which is an entirely legitimate enterprise. If someone passes around a hat in church to collect money for a charity, is that a cynical ploy to make Christianity look good? Or is that an effort to raise money for a charity?

Many atheists enjoy pointing out the bad things that some believers do in the name of religion, and those same atheists contend that evil done by atheist dictators or atheist governments or atheist people is never done in the name of atheism.


It's not merely about doing bad things in the name of religion. Both good and bad actions motivated by atheism are nonexistent.

The point is that you can build a logical pathway between "I believe in X" and "I should perform action A." You might believe in "God," or "the superiority of the German volk" or "liberty and justice." Once you arrive at a belief, whether it be in the existence of a certain entity or in a more abstract idea, then you reason from that premise, and likely some others, to determine what action you should take. If you don't believe in "the superiority of the German volk," that doesn't motivate a particular action. Opposing the actions of the Third Reich would be motivated by some other belief--that Jews have a right to life, or that the fascist tactics of the Nazis are immoral, or that the success of Germany is a threat to the goals of the Soviet Union, etc.

In the same way, not believing in God doesn't motivate any particular action. Those who oppose religion do so because they have drawn a logical path from some other belief. Stalin shut down most of the churches in the Soviet Union, but his lack of belief in God did not motivate that action, because lack of belief fundamentally cannot motivate an action. The evidence suggests that Stalin closed the churches because they represented a rival power center. The belief that "I am justified in acting to preserve my own political power" or something similar could lead via a logical pathway to Stalin's actions against the religious groups in the USSR.

When discussing the moral implications of a belief, you have to consider the actions that logically follow from that given belief. Someone who believes in Christianity can draw a logical pathway to some grossly immoral actions (an easy example is the conquest of Latin America, which was explicitly motivated by a desire to propagate the Catholic faith.) Stalin's crimes were motivated by things he did believe, not but what he happened not to believe in. Stalin didn't believe that the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve was populated by space aliens from Neptune, and neither do I. That commonality is irrelevant to what Stalin did and to my opinions about Stalin's actions. So is our common lack of belief in an omnipotent deity.

Anyone who claims to do something in the name of not believing in God is someone who doesn't understand the logical processes that motivate his own actions. I am going to work at a Habitat for Humanity site on Monday, but my lack of belief in God was not in any way a motivation for my decision to do so. It fundamentally could not have been. Instead, my actions are motivated by what I do believe. Furthermore, I believe that my work with Habitat will constitute a moral act, which will occur in the absence of any belief in God. The fact that theism is not a prerequisite for performing moral actions is one of the salient points here. Of course, you and I would both endorse that statement, but for different reasons.

Therefore, it could be concluded that the Christian religion is good as contrasted with atheism, because it motivates people to do good things.


I would argue that, since atheism is entirely morally neutral, to compare Christianity to atheism is merely to evaluate Christianity on its own merits. While it is difficult or impossible to compile all of the relevant evidence, it is my tentative position that Christianity has not been a beneficial moral influence on humanity. I come to this conclusion not merely on the basis of the immoral actions taken by Christians, which have of course been discussed at great length in this forum. Remember that there can indeed be a logical pathway from belief in Christianity to immoral action. It is my sense that many or most of the bad actions by Christians discussed here have been motivated by some aspect of the Christian beliefs held by their perpetrators.

More fundamentally, however, I disagree with many of the basic moral precepts held by Christians, including some of the red-letter ones in the New Testament. Since many of the moral ideas of Christianity are wrong, it seems unlikely to me at the outset that Christianity as a set of ideas would provoke more moral actions than immoral ones.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Perfectly stated, once again.
You have said everything that ever needs to be said on this particular debate here, my friend, in a much clearer, more concise way than most of us ever could have. I say we find a way to enshrine this post somewhere safe, so that we can refer back to it every time someone trots out this tired old argument.

:applause:
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uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Thank you.
I wish I could actually put that wretched point to rest for good, but I don't anticipate that that will happen. You have my full permission to use that post if you ever want to.
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. many of the moral ideas of Xanity are wrong.

Can you give one that's wrong?




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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. ...
Matthew 10

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mothe-in-law - 36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Luke 12

49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. And the moral idea of these bible verses are .....what?
Besides silly? I'm sure there are another hundred more than have no basis in moral judgment or any ethical consideration.

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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. SO what verses ARE a basis on moral judgment?
Since YOU see no moral in those verses, please provide some that do!
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. # 16 was reply to your query r_d kent.
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Are you your brother's keeper?
Something simple. An idea that has no religious connotation. Unless you find it necessary to attach one.

On the level of human suffering and injustice. Are you your brother's keeper?

It's found in Xainty, though if you were part of an extended tribe, would it not bear the same weight of responsibility one human would feel toward another member of his tribe? Or might feel toward another?

It is a moral idea. But, it's not unique to Xainty.

Is it wrong? Is it immoral?
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. The question asked : moral ideas that are wrong.
While the bible makes for an interesting read, I don't consider it the gospel according to god.

It does contain moral teachings. Some of which are included in Xainty.

Which of the many moral ideas are wrong?

And no I don't care how many legions of angels are coming at the end times either.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. The moral idea of these bible verses is
Christianity is more important than family unity.
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. So one would have to proclaim love of god over love of parents?
Dosen't sound very popular.

Though if as a RC, you'd be baptized by/at six months old, you really wouldn't have much say in that. That is the offering of a child to god by their parents. So the parents are in on it at the get go.

Then there's RC confirmation. During which you offer yourself to god as a pure offering. Provided you haven't been molested by the parrish priest. But at that point who's counting?

So the moral hazzard in this is the complicity of the parents and the indoctrination of a child into the RC church.

I think for Baptist's it's ten years old. Sunday school will wear any body down eventually.

At some point the child grows up and decides for themselves what to believe or not. True?

Or the child has no religious exposure. No harm, no foul?

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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. The problem comes if some of the family members are not Christian.
The Christian family members are then in the moral dilemma of either ignoring the teachings of Jesus Christ or abandoning the non-Christians in their family.

One save here is most Christians do not seem to read their Bibles. The teachings of most individual's Jesus Christ exactly match their own morals and politics irregardless of the words actually attributed to Jesus Christ.

For those Christians who do read their Bibles there is the option of declaring all stricture which does not match their personal morals and politics as strictly figurative. The non-figurative sections of the Bible are the sections which already conform to the individual's morals and politics.

Some exceptions may exist. For example, some people may go on killing sprees if they did not believe in Heaven and Hell.
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Heaven and Hell have nothing to do with killing.
Anger or Fear.

I don't discount drugs, alcohol, or insanity. They manage to take their share too.
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uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. I would have posted several of those in #11
The first one I go to, however, is Matthew 5:39. Jesus counsels his audience not to resist an evil person. This is a profoundly immoral doctrine. It is the responsibility of good people to act to prevent evil. In telling his followers to turn the other cheek when attacked, and to give away their possessions freely to those who are greedy, he advises them to indulge the basest impulses of the wicked. There is a stark distinction between forgiving the repentant and showing mercy to an enemy on the one hand and facilitating wrongdoing in progress on the other.

If "love your enemy" means "don't defend yourself or prevent him from harming others" then it is both foolish and immoral to love your enemy.

Really, most of the Sermon on the Mount consists of things I disagree with. Among them are Matthew 5:22 and the whole passage on adultery, Matthew 5:27-30. Matthew 5:22 implies that any unjust treatment of one's brother, even unfair name-calling, is morally equivalent to murder. Matthew 5:28 has it that lust is itself equivalent to adultery. Then Jesus ups the ante by saying that a person who looks at another with lust should gouge out their own eye to prevent themselves from doing it again. Taken at face value, that is a massively absurd piece of advice.

I don't know if Jesus was actually telling his followers to viciously mutilate themselves, although there was no shortage of ascetics among early Christians who read him that way. The principle here, though, seems to be self-mortification in the place of self-control. Read metaphorically, the most obvious interpretation is that Jesus is advising his followers to make sacrifices in order to avoid temptation. But surely it is more moral to go about your business resisting temptation than it is to hide from the merest hint of an opportunity to do wrong. Even read metaphorically, the "gouge out your eye" passage is a suggestion of a cowardly way to live.

These, of course, are just ideas presented in the Gospel according to Matthew. There are plenty of immoral ideas that modern Christians (I'm referring to conservatives here) believe in that are morally wrong. Opposition to stem cell research, for instance, is based on the premise that the preservation of non-sentient human tissue is more important than the alleviation of suffering felt by thinking, feeling human beings, which is a monstrous immorality.
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Sorry its taken this long to respond back to you.
First, I don't know that Jesus ever existed. The mythology of his existence has born some very strange fruit. In particular, the Xtian and Muslim Faiths.

If Jesus did exist as a messenger of god, a prophet, as the Muslim Faith believes; one can trace the moral prohibitions found in that religion to this very day. Muslim women in particular are to be covered to prevent men from lusting after them.

I would suggest Mohamed agreed with Jesus on the nature of man. Better to hide the women or keep them covered up, as lust and adultery will tear a tribe apart. Family feud writ large. Given the punishment for adultery is stoning to death, it was a robust practice among the nomadic tribes at the time. It's still practiced today in the 21st century.

Let's not forget that the one eyed man is king among the blind. Yet the one eyed man is at great disadvantage in a knife fight. Better to not have too many one eyed warriors. Now raping and pillaging the other tribe, well that's just the way things were done. Jews were under Roman occupation having been conquered and exiled twice previously.

You might make a case for turning the other cheek. Given the circumstances the Jews find them selves in. It's preserving your life that counts. Slavery any way you dissect it is just brutal. Roman's were expert at brutality. After all how do you run an empire of tribal sects without an iron fist? Sound familiar?

While I don't know of any connection of the Hindu religion to Jesus, honor killings are common in India. It may be more of a tribal societal set of mores. Good for the family, good for the clan, good for the tribe.

Rape was common in the old testament. Roman and Greek history also. New testament story "let him without sin cast the first stone" of Jesus saving an adulteress. Now that's a change you might agree with.

Adultery and rape were and are considered the fault of the woman. You do recall reading the Scarlet Letter. Xians don't stone adulteress'. Shame them, yes. Stone them, no. It only been in last part of the 20th century that adultery is no longer considered a crime in this enlightened country.

Love thine enemy. That's a hard one. The best partitioner I can think of was Gandhi. Next Martin Luther King.

Non violence. Which presents you with a dilemma. Can you take the position of the Holy Roman Church and justify war. The good war. The war to stop evil and kill your enemy without remorse or sin. Or do you hold with Jesus second greatest commandment in the law, "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

The Holy Roman Church came about from the Holy Roman Empire. That having the authority from god as his successors left on earth, nothing was out of reach given a good army.

Do we blame god? Do we blame Jesus?

Or is man his own worst enemy?



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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. It sends a message that Atheists and Humanists care, too. n/t
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. What benefit is it giving to a religious organization?
What benefit is there in having a religious group as a middleman? What's the advantage in giving to a religious group instead? I don't get it.
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