Christians burn 100’s of Muslims alive, hack others to death with machetes

[moobu2]

1,000 shops and homes burned In Nigeria..

Nigeria religious riot bodies found in village wells

More victims of deadly religious clashes in central Nigeria have been found, with scores of bodies stuffed in wells and sewage pits.
Up to 150 bodies have been found in Kuru Karama village, 30km (18 miles) from the city of Jos, where the violence erupted last Sunday.
Correspondents say elders hid in holes for seven hours to escape the violence.
An exact death toll is not known but overall 300 or more are thought to have died in the Muslim-Christian clashes.
Muslim officials in Jos who spoke to the campaign group Human Rights Watch said 364 Muslims had been killed.
Several thousand people fled their homes.



'Burned alive'

The BBC's Caroline Duffield in Jos says the town and the area to the south of it are under tight military control but more details of the violence there are starting to emerge.
She says many of the bodies found in Kuru Karama had massive burns, other victims were hacked to death or shot.

She says there are still more bodies scattered in the bush beyond the village but the areas are not safe for volunteer workers to enter.

LINK

[enki23]

1. they have faith

that their imaginary deity sanctions, or will at least forgive their horrible fucking deeds. three cheers for fucking faith.

[Sultana]

2. This is only going to get worse

:(

RIP

Nigeria may erupt into a civil war.

[glinda]

3. This is so very sad.

[BrklynLiberal]

4. Omigod. I truly thought you were going to post something about the Crusades

like around 1200 or 1400!!!

[peacetalksforall]

6. I did also - I thought I was about to learn something (again) as I usually do on DU - with thanks.

[ChicagoSuz219]

20. My first thought was "What century is this?!?"

WWJD? Not this... that's for damn sure!!

[lazarus]

21. WWJD?

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 22:36
He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

[ChicagoSuz219]

22. Scary... n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

53. Jesus was NOT always a nice guy, in spite of what people tell you.

[snagglepuss]

5. This goes back to the imposition of Sharia Law and opposition to Western education.

Islamists and their fundie mania is at the root of this conflict.



TIMELINE-Ethnic and religious unrest in Nigeria



http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE60J0ZT

[darkstar3]

9. So, you're blaming the victims? n/t

[snagglepuss]

15. Have you been following this story?

[darkstar3]

16. Enough to know that your statement is still annoying.

Christians are killing Muslims in brutal ways and it looks like you're blaming the Muslims.

[snagglepuss]

26. You obviously are uninformed about Nigeria and its history . nt

[darkstar3]

32. So now you attack me?

I know more about Nigeria and its history than I care to get into here. The history is irrelevant. There is no excuse, ever, for one group to commit such acts. There can be no provocation that makes it OK. If this had been the act of one state against another, the perpetrators of this act could be hauled before a war crimes tribunal, and put away for a nice long time in the Hague.

And yet, it still appears as if you are defending the actions of the Christians, and blaming the Muslims, not only here, but elsewhere in the thread. Something tells me that if you were Muslim, you'd be singing an entirely different tune with all the exact same facts laid out in front of you.

[Sal316]

36. History is relevant.

Saying it isn't is willfully ignoring root causes. No doubt this is horrific, and the retribution to come will be just as nauseating, but, again, it's only symptoms of the illness.

Ignoring the last 10 years and the events that started this in motion is to be willfully short-sighted.

[darkstar3]

37. Only if you're equivocating.

And when/if the retribution comes, it will be just as inexcusable.

[ZombieHorde]

40. +1 Burning people alive is inexcusable. nt

[rd_kent]

54. "it's only symptoms of the illness" - You are 100% correct. Religion is that illness.

The illness of religion started this and the illness of religion committed this unspeakable act.

You are right though, religion is an illness.

[Wilms]

10. But this article gives a less harsh assessment.

KANO, Nigeria -- As military rule ended in Nigeria a decade ago, an Islamic legal system was swept into place on a wave of popular support in the country's desperately poor and mostly Muslim northern states. It has turned out in a way few expected.

The draconian amputation sentences warned of by human rights activists and the religious oppression feared by Christians have mostly not come to pass. But neither has the utopia envisioned by backers of sharia law, who believed politicians' promises that it would end decades of corruption and pillaging by civilian and military rulers. The people are still poor and miserable, residents complain, and politicians are still rich.

snip

Islam has dominated in this region on the edge of the Sahara for centuries, in a tenuous coexistence with the Christianity that is prevalent in more prosperous southern Nigeria. When Kano and 11 other northern states that had long applied Islamic law to civil cases adopted sharia for criminal matters, clashes broke out between Christians and Muslims. Early on, several sentences of death by stoning for female adulterers -- never carried out -- and the amputation of two men's hands for theft drew international condemnation.

But this version of sharia turned out to be fairly temperate, reflecting local sensibilities and religious law's existence within a secular federal system. The harshest sentences imposed under the new system, which applies only to Muslims, garnered little public support. The efforts to ban women from motorbike taxis sparked protests, so veiled women still zip about Kano with their arms around male drivers. The federal government reined in the sharia police, known as the Hisbah, after they were accused of terrorizing people.

snip

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/11/AR2009081103257.html

[Alameda]

11. My...and how tolerant and knowledgeable you are...hmmmm?

Sounds like you might like to join them.

[snagglepuss]

41. "The greatest menace to our civilization today is the conflict between

giant organized systems of self-righteousness -- each system only too delighted to find that the other is wicked -- each only too glad that the sins give it the pretext for still deeper hatred and animosity."


Herbert Butterfield

[patrice]

13. So it IS okay to kill people for something they could do?

[snagglepuss]

17. The OP fails to mention that this violence has been going on for years now.

Both sides have been involved in violence. This was Christian retribution and in a few day or weeks we'll see Muslim retribution.

snip

Following the adoption of the shari’a criminal code by Zamfara State in October 1999, northern Muslim political and religious leaders established the Supreme Council for Sharia in Nigeria (SCSN), an organization designed to promote adoption of shari’a in other Nigerian states. Christian groups in the southern half of the country and in the Middle Belt reacted sharply to what they perceived as a Muslim, northern effort to lay the foundations for an Islamic, theocratic state.

snip

This poses a constitutional problem because the Nigerian constitution guarantees a secular state, guarantees freedom of religion, and vests in states concurrent power to establish their own court systems. At both constitutional and practical levels, these guarantees are incompatible in light of the fact that Islam rejects separation of political from religious authority and proposes a unified theocratic system of governance.


snip

In May 1999 violence erupted in Kaduna State over the succession of an Emir resulting in more than 100 deaths. In Kaduna in February-May 2000 over 1,000 people died in rioting over the introduction of criminal Shar'ia in the State. Hundreds of ethnic Hausa were killed in reprisal attacks in southeastern Nigeria. In September 2001, over 2,000 were people were killed in inter-religious rioting in Jos. In October 2001, hundred were killed and thousands displaced in communal violence that spread across the Middle-Belt states of Benue, Taraba, and Nasarawa.




http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/nigeria-1.htm

[patrice]

24. Yeah, I guess I sort of knew that. Religion doesn't help much and might even make it worse, but if

it weren't religion on the face of it, it WOULD be something else.

One of the questions I have in my mind is whether "the Prosperity Gospel" which we see so commonly on U.S. TV doesn't account for a significant minority of the actors AND re-actors in this kind of situation. "Come believe as we believe and we will take care of your" turns into heightened competition for very limited re$ource$ . . . ?

[patrice]

25. P.S. Nevermind my question; I just read #23 below.

[Sal316]

35. The OP has an axe to grind...

....so failing to mention relevant facts is nothing new.

[moobu2]

43. I posted a link to the news story about some Christians slaughtering Muslims

I didn't intend to write a essay on Nigerian history. If you or anyone else wants to go looking for some way to excuse those Christians behavior, that’s up to you. I'm sure there are a multitude of underlying issues that led up to the violence, but still, in the end, a bunch of Christians went on a rampage and killed hundreds of Muslims and you cant get around that fact.

[kwassa]

46. so you post a completely slanted and distorted topic OP in this forum

and then claim no responsibility for it?

Pretty convenient. What it really sounds like is that you didn't have a clue about the rest of the story.

[rd_kent]

55. Slanted and distorted? This DID happen, JUST LIKE THE OP STATES!

You can try to gloss it over, but in THIS case, christians killed people they disagreed with.

[kwassa]

65. It is slanted and distorted because you only tell a small part of the story

take it out of context to create a FALSE picture of the total situation.

[darkstar3]

68. The OP may not contain the context of the overall religious conflict,

but it does nail the actual occurrences here. Christians are killing Muslims in horrific and barbaric ways. I don't need to know why to know that this behavior is immoral and unacceptable. This is not a false picture of the situation.

[kwassa]

73. It is a false picture of the situation

Taking this out of context creates the false picture, as has been repeatedly pointed out in this thread. It is a political, inter-ethnic and inter-religious conflict with barbarism on both sides, yet only one side is reported.

and I have yet to see Moobu's condemnation of anyone elses behavior except for the Christians in the snippet taken out of context.

The agenda is to slam Christians, which is not new, it has been moobu's agenda for a long time, as seen in the pattern of what he posts in this forum, over and over.

[darkstar3]

75. .

Just because you don't like the picture, doesn't make it false. Just because Moobu's posting history appears one sided doesn't change the facts.

Are Christians killing Muslims in barbaric ways? Yes.
Does it matter why? No.
Why doesn't it matter? Because nothing will ever excuse or mitigate this behavior. If Muslims had hunted down and slaughtered all of the first-born Christian children in the state, it will still be immoral and inexcusable for the Christians to do this, just as it was immoral and inexcusable for the Muslims to kill the children in that hypothetical situation.

Your claim here is nothing more or less than "violence begets violence," referred to biblically as "an eye for an eye," and it doesn't work.

[kwassa]

91. It is false if it creates a false picture of events

The facts within themselves are not false, the lie created is the impression by taking some facts out of context, which is what moobu has done.

It happens all the time in politics, and freepers are particularly good at this. A small truth that creates a big lie.

[darkstar3]

93. Again you say there is a lie here.

Now I want you to specifically state what it is, because I don't see it, and neither do some others.

[rd_kent]

82. When the muslims barbarically kill christians there, I will condemn it just as much.

But today, christians barbarically killed muslims. It happened.

[kwassa]

90. I was addressing moobu, not you.

The three of you are like a tag team. I talk to one, someone else answers.

I would point also out, that Muslims have barbarically killed Christians in Nigeria in this ongoing conflict, and you have had nothing to say on the subject.

[rd_kent]

92. Well, I was talking to you and your murderous christian apologist posts.

You seem to really want to gloss over the FACT that christians brutally murdered muslims. This just happened, its a fact.


And I condemn muslims killing christians, just like I said, but MOST RECENTLY, christians committed a horrific act. One cannot get away from this FACT.

[kwassa]

100. Murderous Christian apologist posts? Point them out, please.

otherwise, put that crack pipe down!

[rd_kent]

113. FFS, ALL of your posts. They ALL attempt to gloss over the FACT that christians MURDERED

muslims.

[kwassa]

118. uh, no, that is your personal projection, not anything I have said.

[rd_kent]

132. No, its your denial.

[darkstar3]

98. One small problem:

The grade-school concept of "this is an A-B conversation so you can C your way out of it" doesn't remotely apply on a public message board where your posts semi-permanent and visible to everyone. You should keep in mind that while you may be speaking to one individual in particular, you always have an audience that is ready, willing, and able to chime in when you say something with which they take issue.

To put it simply, these aren't your parents' debate rules. And I, for one, will continue to respond to any of your posts when I find them lacking, as here, where your attack against rd and Moobu is pointless because it doesn't change the facts of the situation in Nigeria one iota.

[kwassa]

101. write when you find a clue.

[darkstar3]

102. How mature...

:sarcasm:

[rd_kent]

114. EPIC FAIL!

[SidDithers]

99. In what context is it OK for people to kill each other in horrific ways?...nt

Sid

[Jim__]

105. Extenuating circumstances - they don't make it "OK" ...

... but they do make it somewhat understandable. It's been going on throughout human history. Of course, not all of us have been in circumstances where we have committed atrocities. That does not say that under certain circumstances we wouldn't.

We try to stop these things. So far, unsucessfully. Maybe, with an equitable distribution of sufficient goods, we can. But, it may just take a change to human nature.

[rd_kent]

115. I tend to agree, and the first change in human nature needs to be putting religion on the shelf

along with the other fairy tales and stories.

[Jim__]

116. Do you really believe that humans can change their own nature? And, if they can ...

... you think the elimination of religion is more important than the elimination of the propensity to commit mass murder and other atrocities?

[rd_kent]

117. I think that the propensity to commit mass murder and other atrocities can be partly blamed

on religion in some way, usually either directly from the teachings or indirectly from the mental trauma received from childhood and early adult brainwashing or indoctrination.




Bottom line, if religion were removed from the equation, I think we would see a lot LESS strife and turmoil in this world.

[humblebum]

121. Been tried, failed. Blame it on good old human nature. nt

[rd_kent]

131. Been tried? Only reason it would fail is because of ones like you that refuse to recognize reality

The only failure here is you and those like you.

[humblebum]

138. The reality is that it did fail and that it would fail again.

The secret to stopping mass murders and human atrocities is to get rid of the murderers and those who commit the atrocities and the root causes. Religion has no more effect than race. It is just used as another pretext to commit these acts. Poverty, lack of education, food shortages, over-population, etc., are the culprits. Introduce atheism and you would have atheists killing religious and vice versa. That is reality and that has already been tried and it failed on scale never seen before or since.

[rd_kent]

139. I agree, get rid of the root causes. Religion is one of those root causes.

But again, your infantile attempt to inject atheism and some kind of code or dogma is just as asinine now as when you did it 300 posts ago.


Fail on your part, as usual.

[humblebum]

142. Your thinking is absolutely no different than those who

attempted it before. You supremely lack the skill to debate an issue. Ad hominems don't require knowledge nor skill nor reason. I agree with you that there is no excuse for these murders, but stopping this spiral of violence requires addressing the root causes. As far as injecting atheism into the discussion, it was already injected when atheists entered the discussion.

[rd_kent]

144. Whats that? Were you saying something or just repeating your crap again?

Oh, I see, just more of your crap.

[humblebum]

146. I think you just proved my point. Open a discussion and then

allow only points of view you agree with. That's a great example of the reality that you are talking about.

[rd_kent]

148. Just truthful points of view. Yours are anything but and are to be ignored.

[humblebum]

151. And how has my POV not been truthful? nt

[rd_kent]

153. *sigh*......

[humblebum]

154. It looks like I was truthful about more things than just religion and

atheism.(The best way to avoid debate is to either make no reply or put the party on block)

[rd_kent]

155. This is how I feel about all of your idiotic, asinine and untruthful posts...

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[humblebum]

158. If you are an example of a common atheist/non-religious person,

then your skills of persuasion are zilch.

[rd_kent]

163. Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment. Thanks.

[darkstar3]

161. And where are

these truthful things about atheism? You misrepresent or flat-out attack atheism at every opportunity. In this subthread you've been continually referring to the Russian Communists, as you so often do, to make your point.

Here's the problem: While atheists can and do kill people, it is impossible for you to logically show that a tenet of their atheism led to that killing.

The Communists of Russia desired power. They adopted atheism as a part of their platform in the hopes of increasing that power by removing the people's obedience to the church. Then they went on a killing spree to cement that power.

The Roman Empire desired power. They adopted Christianity as part of their platform in the hopes of increasing that power through the concepts of "divine right" and "render unto Caesar", among others. Then they went killing, raping, and pillaging across Europe to cement that power.

Atheism had nothing to do with the murders in the first example, just as Christianity had nothing to do with the murders in the second. It was all about power.

Yet you continually use references to the Russian Communists in an attempt to misrepresent atheism, and blame it specifically for some of the most horrific violence in history. This is why you have spoken no truth in regard to atheism, because you fail to understand what it is and yet continue to attack it through misrepresentations and false ad hom.

[humblebum]

164. My quote from #50

"The most atrocious massacres in all of human history were carried out under atheistic dictators by declared atheists. No religion involved. Was atheism the culprit in these cases? Of course not. But human extremism and fanaticism were quite plainly." There is absolutely nothing untrue in that statement.

[darkstar3]

166. For once in our discussions

I stand corrected.

I do, however, still take issue with your injection of atheism into this debate, and specifically with your argumentation method. It is clear to anyone with eyes to see that this violence, while exacerbated by socio-economic problems in the area, is traceable back to religion and long-standing inter-group religious discrimination. Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Now, if you wish to claim (and it seems you do) that slaughter in general would STILL occur were religion somehow missing from the globe, then I have no problem with that. It's probably true. But of course, that doesn't change the fact that THIS slaughter, THIS religious violence and others like it would never have occurred if religion had somehow never come about to draw the first and most important dividing lines.

So while I agree with your more general point, I take strong issue with your use of language. The most atrocious massacres in all of human history were carried out under atheistic dictators by declared atheists. is a sentence specifically chosen out of old anti-atheist rhetoric to needle, and to raise the ire of atheists on this board so that you can continue to discuss what you really like to talk about: atheism. That's why I said before that you were thread-hijacking. I stand by that statement, and name you "shit-starter extraordinaire.'

[humblebum]

167. It is very difficult to hijack a thread in an open forum, especially

when it is a group of atheists/skeptics critiquing the role of religion. If that bothers you then consider yourself bothered. Perhaps you should carry your discussion to the atheist forum.

[rd_kent]

170. "shit-starter extraordinaire" - HAHAHAHA!!!!! Perfect!

[rd_kent]

81. Did christians kill muslims? Yes. What else is there?

I understand what you are saying is that there is a lot of history behind this, but none of that history is an excuse for what happened.

[Chulanowa]

19. By that logic, as an American I'm entitled to massacre some Christians, right?

I mean you've got this "Family" bunch, for starters. All sorts of little dingleberries dangling off that big butt. Youve got local churches all over trying to impose their will on municipal governments, you have bible-bangers forcibly removing rights from my fellows, most of the Prison population is christian, Christians are making the weapons being used to kill people over i nthe Middle East...

I shouldb e picking up a machete and a few jugs of gasolene to stop this menace, shouldn't I? I shiould kill the children too, so they don't grow up to become Christians, and the women, so as to stop there beign children.. .you know, be thorough.

[snagglepuss]

27. Rather than spout off nonsense grab some reading material about

Nigeria. Animosities stem back centuries for a number of reasons one which is the fact Nigerian Muslims raided the South (non-Muslims) for slaves. Slavery in Africa predates the European slave trade and continued after the British outlawed slavery. Shocking isn't it that people might bear grudges for historical injustice. The both sides are filled with hateful assholes spurred on by historical grievences, economic hardhips, and religious idiocy.


snip

As the trans-Atlantic trade declined, however, the internal African slave trade increased dramatically. It is during this period that the populations of Nigerian Middle Belt and other areas were decimated. The Sokoto Caliphate was one of the most important destinations for slaves. In the late nineteenth century, large slave villages were formed in northern Nigeria. Caliphate aristocrats profited from these plantations. The vast majority of these slaves were non-Muslims, since Islamic law forbade the enslavement of fellow Muslims.

As the internal slave trade increased during the nineteenth century, many parts of Africa, including Nigeria, became extremely violent and insecure places. Thus, even before European colonialists arrived in the late nineteenth century, Nigeria had been seriously impacted by the rise and the fall of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. During this period, it was extremely dangerous for people to take long trips for fear of slave raids. This was particularly true for members of small ethnic groups, which were often the targets of raids from larger states.


http://www.uni.edu/gai/Nigeria/Background/Standard17.html

[moobu2]

29. Doesn’t change the fact that Christians are burning Muslims alive now

[snagglepuss]

30. More Christians were killed in Nigeria than anywhere else in the world due

to the Danish cartoons. Muslims and Christians are both guilty of vicious violence. However since you are ignoring that blatant fact, here is a comprehensive list of Muslim atrocities against Christians from Africa TOday.


· December 30 2009, Bauchi, (Northern Nigeria) Radical Islamic sect Kala-Kato a branch of Maitasine attacked Christians and burned Churches; 70 people were killed.

· July 26 2009 Maidugiri, Yobe, Bauchi, Kano, (Northern Nigeria) Radical Islamic fundamentalist sect, Boko Haram goes on rampage burning churches, and looting homes belonging to Christians and murdering them. Three Christian pastors including George Orji (Igbo) were killed by beheading. Officially 800 people were reported killed.

· 2007, Adamawa (Northern Nigeria) Moslem jihadists invade Christian community of Yugor killing hundreds of Christians, looting and burning churches and Christian's homes and property.

· 2006 Maidugiri, (Northern Nigeria) Islamic fundamentalists protesting cartoon of Prophet Mohammed by Danish cartoonist killed hundreds of Christians, burned down scores of Churches, and looted shops and homes belonging to Christians.

· 2006 All over Northern Nigeria. Similar riots by Islamic jihadists were held in numerous towns in Northern Nigeria – Katsina, Bauchi, Minna, Potiskum, Kano, Kotangora. Thousands of Christians were killed, scores of churches were looted and burned and personal homes and businesses of Christians were looted and burned. One week before that Nigerian MP's burned Danish and Norwegian flags in the parliament premises.

· June 28 2006, Abuja (Northern Nigeria) The Federal government of Nigeria accused Kano State of Northern Nigeria of collaborating with foreign powers to train 100 Muslim militants in “intelligence gathering” and the "practice of jihad". In a news release, Information Minister Frank Nweke said the "Hisbah", a group employed by the mainly Muslim state of Kano to enforce sharia law, was "a parallel security outfit that poses a potential threat to national security".

· April 2003, Kano (Northern Nigeria) Islamic jihadists go on a rampage A pastor, Sunday Madumere (Igbo) and six of his family members were killed

· April, 2003, Jos (Northern Nigeria) Armed Muslim insurgents attacked Wereng village near Vom a suburb of Jos killing people, burning homes and looting people's property.

· April, 2003, Langtang (Northern Nigeria) A group of armed Muslims attacked a village in Langtang killing people and burning down homes.

· 2003 Gusau (Northern Nigeria) Governor Ahmed Sani, who came to the United States and used the VOA to advertise the introduction of fundamentalist Islamic Sharia Law in Nigeria promising that it will never be applied to Christians gave an order that more than 20 of the Christian churches in the State be demolished. They were demolished promptly. No reasons were given.

· March, 2003 Jos (Northern Nigeria) Thousands of jihad warriors attacked the town of Kardako in Wase Local Government Area (LGA) shouting “Allahu Akbar” killing Christians and burning down homes.

· February, 2003 Ibadan (Western Nigeria) Muslims jihadists from the National Council of Muslim Youth Organizations attacked Christian schools in Ibadan in an effort to force the schools to require women to wear Islamic head coverings. Hundreds of students and teachers were injured in the attack.

· December 26, 2002, Bauchi, (Northern Nigeria) Islamic jihadists attacked Christians concluding a Christmas celebration in Bauchi killing Christians, looting and burning churches and Christian's homes.

· December 2002, Jos, (Northern Nigeria). Muslim Jihadists attack Christians. During the attack Rev. Bitrus Manjang, his son, daughter-in- law and their six-month old child were shot to death outside their home. The jihadists went on killing people looting and burning churches and Christian's homes.

· November, 2002 Kano, Kaduna (Northern Nigeria) Muslim jihadists went on a rampage after an article in the This Day newspaper suggested that the prophet Muhammad would probably have married a contestant from the Miss World pageant scheduled to be held in Abuja. Muslim mobs ransacked the newspaper's office, issued a fatwa on the author of the article, Miss Isioma, killed Christians and burned down numerous churches.

· October 2002, Jos, (Northern Nigeria) Hundreds of Christians were killed when a mob of several Muslims jihadists attacked the town of Fajul in Plateau State. Mercenaries from Chad and Niger were believed to be among the group, which burned down homes, churches, and raped several women.

· September 11, 2002, Jos, (Northern Nigeria) A bomb exploded at the Church of Christ in the Laranto suburb of Jos. No one was injured, but there was some structural damage to the church building.

· August 2002 Kano, (Northern Nigeria) The government of Kano State ordered half of the churches in Kano State closed because of Muslim complaints about “too many churches.”

· June 2002, Jos, (Northern Nigeria) Several Christian communities in Plateau state including Yelwa, Shendam, Wase, Barakin Ladi, Vom and Miango were invaded by Islamic jihadists who killed people and burned down homes and churches

· June, 2002, Minna, (Northern Nigeria) At least 75 Christians were arrested in Niger state for opposing the state's Islamic sharia law.

· April 8-22, 2002, Kano (Northern Nigeria) At least seven churches in Kano State were destroyed by authorities. There is a growing trend in states that have enacted Sharia law to destroy Christian churches on the pretense that the churches have violated building codes. Christians believe it is a step toward wiping out the Christian faith in northern Nigeria.

· April 2002, Sokoto (Northern Nigeria) Two Christians in Zamfara State were tried on the charge of apostasy, converting from Islam to Christianity. According to Islamic law, the penalty for apostasy is death. However the two Christians, Lawali Yakubu and Ali Jafaru, claim they were never Muslims to start with. The two belong to an ethnic group that has practiced Christianity for many years.

· February, 2002 Ilorin (Northern Nigeria) Muslims in Ilorin turned violent while celebrating Eid-el-Kabir and began attacking and killing Christians and burning their houses and businesses.

· February 2002, Kano (Northern Nigeria) The Kano state government revealed that it had closed down 122 Christian schools for failing to meet state requirements. The requirement in question is the compulsory study of Islam. Christian schools have refused to allow Muslim clerics into their schools, thus risking closure.

· February, 2002, Gombe, (Northern Nigeria) A Christian lady, Esther Bulus was kidnapped from her school by four Muslims who slit her throat and left her to die. Esther had refused to marry a Muslim politician in Gombe on grounds of religious differences. She was murdered because of this.

· December 30, 2001, Jos, (Northern Nigeria) Armed Muslim jihadists attacked the Christian community in southern Jos, killing people, looting and destroying property worth several million dollars.

· December 2001, Yola (Northern Nigeria) Muslim army soldiers from the 23rd Armored 7th Brigade in Yola, burned a Christian church building, which was constructed in the army barracks. They justified the act by saying it was an illegal structure. However, the army officially allows both Islam and Christianity to be practiced in the barracks.

· December 10, 2001, Kano, (Northern Nigeria) Truck driver Uche Nwama was killed by Islamic jihadists for allowing the exhaust from his truck to drift into an open-air Islamic meeting. Islamic jihadists claimed the exhaust had desecrated the Quran.

· November 6 2001; Ibadan (Western Nigeria) Islamic jihadists hold a massive rally in Ibadan in support of Osama Bin Laden and his attack and slaughter of thousands of Americans during the 9/11/2001 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York. They condemn the United States for attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan and vow to fight alongside Bin Laden and his fellow terrorists.

· November 2001 (Northern and Western Nigeria) Islamic jihadists hold massive rallies in Osogbo, Sokoto, Kano, Zaria, Kaduna, and other towns in Western and Northern Nigeria in support of Osama Bin Laden and his attack and slaughter of thousands of Americans during 9/11/2001 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York. They condemn the United States for attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan. They also vow to fight alongside Bin Laden and his fellow terrorists in a jihad against America.

· November 28, 2001Enugu (Eastern Nigeria) Christian Biafrans organize a peaceful rally in Enugu in solidarity with and support of the government and people of the United States over the terrorist attack in New York on 9/11/2001 and in support of the United States action against the terrorists. The Nigerian paramilitary police brutalized the participants, disbanded the rally and arrested the leaders.

· October 14-18, 2001 Kano (Northern Nigeria) Massive anti-American protests in Kano by Islamic jihadists. Thousands of Christians are slaughtered and scores of churches are burned. Property of Christians worth billions of dollars are looted and destroyed.

· October 2001, Kaduna (Northern Nigeria) Islamic jihadists attack Christians in churches, on the street and in their homes. Thousands of Christians are slaughtered, scores of churches are burned and looted, and thousands of Christian homes are looted, and burned.

· September 2001, Kano (Northern Nigeria) Islamic jihadists attack Christians burning down churches slaughtering thousands of people, looting churches and private homes. Kano State government demolishes the few remaining churches.

· September 2001, Jos (Northern Nigeria) In a well planned and highly coordinated program Islamic jihadists attack Christians in the city of Jos, burning down churches, and private homes of Christians, looting the churches and private property of Christians. Hundreds of churches were burned and thousands of Christians were slaughtered some burned while worshipping in their churches.

· August 2001, Bauchi, (Northern Nigeria). The Bauchi state government is alleged to be using Muslim mercenaries to attack Christians in the Tafawa Balewa and Bogora districts. On several occasions vehicles loaded with Islamic jihadists were intercepted by vigilant Christians. Several hundred Christians were killed and houses, shops and churches looted, burned and destroyed.

· June 2001, Gawaram (Northern Nigeria) Islamic jihadists attack Christians, burn down dozens of churches and kill Christians.

· February 24-25, 2001, (Gombe) A visit to Gombe state by an Israeli ambassador sparked a riot by Islamic jihadists. During the riot the jihadists kill Christians, loot and burn down churches, loot and burn down Christian homes and render thousands of people homeless. The Calvary Baptist Church and the Bishara Baptist church are among those looted and burned.

· September 2000 Gombe (Northern Nigeria) In Bambam, Gombe state Islamic jihadists attack and kill Christians, burn down and loot churches and private homes and businesses of Christians

· May 2000, Kaduna (Northern Nigeria) For several days Islamic jihadists attack and slaughter hundreds of people in Kaduna.. They loot thousands of Christian people's homes, churches, businesses and then burn them down. Thousands of Christians are mindlessly slaughtered and more than 200 churches are burned

· February 2000, Kaduna (Northern Nigeria) Islamic jihadists attack and slaughter Christians opposing the implementation of Sharia law in Kaduna, northern Nigeria. Christian homes, businesses and churches are looted, and burned. Thousands of Christians are mercilessly slaughtered and property worth billions of dollars are looted and destroyed by the jihadists.

· 2000 Damboa, Maidugiri, (Northern Nigeria) Islamic jihadists attack and slaughter Christians, loot and burn Christian homes, businesses and churches

· We will stop at the year 2000. This is not even comprehensive. There is documentation of numerous other attacks by Islamic jihadists including: Kano, 1994; Ibadan, 1993; Lagos, 1993; Funtua, 1993; Zango Kataf 1992; Kano 1991; Katsina, 1991; Bauchi, 1991; Kafanchan, 1986; Kaduna, 1986; Gombe, 1985; Yola, 1984; Maidugiri, 1982; Kano, 1980. If you are interested you can go as far back as May/June; July/August; and September/October 1966 when Moslem jihadists slaughtered 100,000 Christian Igbo and other Easterners in Northern Nigeria. We suspect that Dora and her parents may have been escapees from Northern Nigeria during the jihad of 1966 in Northern Nigeria

[darkstar3]

33. And?

That list, in part or in full, doesn't justify these actions. Nothing can.

"Where does it end?! They kill you and take the land. You kill them and take the land back. On, and on, and on, a cycle of hatred..."

[snagglepuss]

34. Of course nothing justifies these actions. However it is disingenuous to point out

an atrocity on one side without mentioning what lead up to it.

[rd_kent]

84. Why? So the horric act commited by christians can somehow be diminished?

[snagglepuss]

119. So your brilliant position is that world should simply condemn Palestinan

suicide bombers for acts of barbarity without any reference to Isreali provocation? Without any attempt to understand context. Ironic how much you and your tag team sound like the Israeli govt.

[rd_kent]

83. And thats horrible. But none of that excuse what happened in this story. None of it.

[Chulanowa]

38. And all that excuses these attacks how, exactly?

I'm well aware of history, Snagglepuss. I also know that murder is murder, regardless of if the victims are people who you think it's okay to kill because of their religion.

[snagglepuss]

39. If how you distort my statement is any indication of how you read anything else

than reading isn't much use. Nothing I have written even vaguely suggests that it is okay to kill for any reason.

[Chulanowa]

44. You're carrying water for the people who did this

What you're basically saying is, "don't condemn this, because Muslims have been bastards in the region, too"

Which is kind of like giving a thumbs-up for prison rape because "they're just criminals" - with the glaring exception that most people in prison actually are criminals, while these people are almost certainly innocent of any sort of wrongdoing.

If you don't realize that you're doing this, then fine. Now you know. You've got several people besides me informing you of exactly what you're doing though, so I doubt you were clueless. You might want to stop though, either way.

[snagglepuss]

45. Again you are reading into to what I have stated to suit yourself.

My position is that the OP ought to have put the massacre into context, as in 'ongoing violence between Muslims and Christians escalated ... '

Demanding that events be placed in context is not the equivelent to condoning the actions. Obviously you and others in this thread who share your view never bothered to understand what prompted the 9-11 attacks. You'd rather get on your moral highhorses and feel victimized.

[rd_kent]

56. Why? This DID just happen. There is no getting around that. Are you saying that underlying causes

excuse this criminal act?

[snagglepuss]

120. Ironic how much you and your tag team sound like the Israeli govt

denouncing those who mention context when Palestinians commit barbarous acts against Israeli civilians. How very very ironic.

[darkstar3]

123. Actually,

while I can't really speak for the rest of the "tag team" to which you are referring, you might be interested to know that I personally denounce both sides.

When Israel fires rockets from helicopters into civilian areas of the Gaza Strip to kill a kingpin without regard for innocents, I condemn them and denounce those who mention context, because context doesn't matter there.
When the Palestinians launch ordinance from various places into Israeli civilian centers, I condemn them for doing so and care not a whit for context or provocation.

All is not fair in love and war. The UN understands this, and so did the US before we started waterboarding people. Some lines, regardless of provocation or context, should never be crossed. Defending those who cross those lines, or attempting to mitigate the gravity of their actions by comparing them to things done by others in the past, is disgusting.

The Israelis deserve to be roundly condemned by the international community when they barbarically slaughter innocent Palestinians.
The Palestinians deserve to be roundly condemned by the international community when they barbarically slaughter innocent Israelis.
The Christians deserve to be roundly condemned by the international community when they barbarically slaughter innocent Muslims.
The Muslims deserve to be roundly condemned by the international community when they barbarically slaughter innocent Christians.

Are you getting how this works yet? The list could go on forever, but the bottom line is that all of your precious context, all of your equivocation, and all of your comparing other posters to people you find disgusting amounts to precisely dick.

[snagglepuss]

125. So you have denounce both sides what happens now?

[darkstar3]

126. Well,

you could stop defending one of them.

[snagglepuss]

127. You're avoiding a straight forward question. What do you do after you

make wholesale denunciations? Is that it?

[darkstar3]

128. You're awfully demanding.

You go around shouting that context is important after it is shown that you are defending murderers and blaming victims. Then you demand that those who denounce the murderers must also denounce earlier murders. Now you're demanding that denouncers must do something more? What exactly would you like us to do? Fly to Gaza and stand in the middle of the firefight screaming "You're both monsters!" while rockets fly past us?

Here's a question for you, your highness, what do YOU do after you defend these people?

BTW: Contrary to your belief, your question wasn't straightforward. I thought you meant "where do we go from here" as in this thread.

[snagglepuss]

129. I've never defended anyone in this thread. If you want to use the word

demand, my demand is that the OP state the fact on the ground, namely, that the ever worsening cycle of violence reached new level of depravity when Christians went on a bloodthirsty, merciless rampage against Muslims. This attack will worsen a tense and dangerous situation.

Only propagandists would find fault with that summation. Putting the event into context does not preclude describing the violence perpetrated on Muslims.

[darkstar3]

130. Which is only a veiled attempt to spread blame,

while attacking those who would question your motives. Propagandist indeed...:eyes:

[snagglepuss]

133. It is spreading the blame because both sides are guilty. However

spreading the blame doesn't mean that I the condone violence or excuse it. In fact the reason I am so adamant about this is that I am disgusted by religious fanaticism. I am disgusted with each side vying to present themselves as victims. I am disgusted by the egotism and tribalism that is on display on both sides.

What has to be condemned is the unquestioning adherence to any particular belief. This violence isn't going to end unless people step back from religious obession and put our shared humanity before some notion of God.

[darkstar3]

134. Both sides are NOT guilty in this atrocity.

Both sides are guilty for separate, past atrocities, but they do not share guilt for this one. This is not a situation where "there is enough blame to go around." When one side crosses the line from sectarian violence to barbaric slaughter, they do not somehow get to put some of the blame for that slaughter on the victims.

Let's step away from religion for a moment and attempt to abstract this a bit with a reference to another conflict that was not religious in nature.

In WWII, the US dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians, poisoning countless others, maiming a generation of children, and demoralizing the Japanese people in a way previously unseen. I've heard all the arguments about how this action was necessary, how it saved countless American lives, and how the US didn't know just how horrible the fallout would be. The fact, however, remains that we DID know the bombs would kill hundreds of thousands of non-combatants, including innocent children, and we did it anyway. Can there ever be an excuse for this? Can we ever lay ANY of the blame for those bombs on the Japanese? No, and no. WE made the conscious choice to slaughter civilians precisely because we knew the demoralizing effect it would have on the Japanese and their war efforts.

This situation is smaller in scope, but otherwise no different. One side made a conscious decision to slaughter innocents precisely because they knew what effect it would have on the other side. The Christians don't get to lay ANY of the blame for that on the Muslims. Attempting to lay any of the blame for this action on the Muslims is exactly like attempting to lay some of the blame for the deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the Japanese: It is disgusting, uncalled for, and it doesn't work because there can NEVER be any provocation strong enough to justify or mitigate the slaughter of innocents.

Spreading the blame here IS blaming the victim.
Spreading the blame here IS excusing the violence.

[snagglepuss]

135. Dropping the bombs were valid given that the Japanese had no intention of stopping

their brutal aggression. The Japanese killed more people in WW II than the Germans and were as brutal. Your stance is a stunning example of how well it pays to spin one side as a victims and not look at the entire picture. Rather than feel sorry for the countless millions who died and suffered as the result of Japanese aggression, you feel for the aggressors.


snip

According to historian Chalmers Johnson "It may be pointless to try to establish which WWII aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimized. The Germans killed 6 million Jews and 20 million Soviet citizens; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos,Malays,Vietnamese ,Cambodians Indonesians, and Burmese at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese."

http://www.answers.com/topic/japanese-war-crimes


GERM WARFARE EXPERIMENTS ON WOMEN,CHILDREN AND MEN

" it was the human experiments that distinguished Pingfan. Once, in an operation aimed at extracting plague-infected organs, which Kamada still finds it difficult to talk about, Kamada took a scalpel with no anesthetic, to a Chinese prisoner, or "log," as the Japanese euphemistically called their victims. "I inserted the scalpel directly from the log's neck and opened the chest," he told an Japanese interviewer, at the time anonymously. "At first there was a terrible scream, but the voice soon fell silent..

snip

"Today, a bizarre stone memorial that Kitano erected in honor of his experimental rats still stand in a disused rat cellar in China. It was more courtesy than he showed the victims of his experiments, who were
euphemistically referred to as "monkeys" in published scientific papers. The Shenyang medical school still has hundreds of slides of human brain cross sections, some of which were used in papers published by Sendai University with open references to the use of "fresh human brains."
Prof. Keiichi Tsuneishi, a Japanese historian of science, pieced together much of the Unit 731 story from scientific papers published by doctors, many of whom later agreed to speak to him. "They have no sense of remorse at all," he says. Instead, the doctors complained of wasting the best years of their lives on medical research that could not be continued after the war."

http://www.geocities.com/wallstreet/floor/9597/confessi...


RAPE OF NANKING

"Numerous atrocities were committed en route to Nanjing, but they could not compare with the epic carnage and destruction the Japanese unleashed on the defenseless city after Chinese forces abandoned it to the enemy."

snip


"Women were killed in indiscriminate acts of terror and execution, but the large majority died after extended and excruciating gang-rape...One eyewitness, Li Ke-hen, reported: "There are so many bodies on the street, victims of group rape and murder. They were all stripped naked, their breasts cut off, leaving a terrible dark brown hole; some of them were bayoneted in the abdomen, with their intestines spilling out alongside them; some had a roll of paper or a piece of wood stuffed in their vaginas" (quoted in Yin and Young, The Rape of Nanking, p. 195).

... Many young women were simply tied to beds as permanent fixtures accessible to any and all comers. When they became too weepy or too diseased to arouse desire, they were disposed of. In alleys and parks lay the corpses of women who had been dishonored even after death by mutilation and stuffing." (Yin and Young, The Rape of Nanking, p. 195.)

SNIP

... The Japanese drew sadistic pleasure in forcing Chinese men to commit incest -- fathers to rape their own daughters, brothers their sisters, sons their mothers ... those who refused were killed on the spot." (Chang, The Rape of Nanking, p. 95.)

SNIP

"Atrocious tortures were also inflicted on the captive men. "The Japanese not only disemboweled, decapitated, and dismembered victims but performed more excruciating varieties of torture. Throughout the city they nailed prisoners to wooden boards and ran over them with tanks, crucified them to trees and electrical posts, carved long strips of flesh from them, and used them for bayonet practice. At least one hundred men reportedly had their eyes gouged out and their noses and ears hacked off before being set on fire. Another group of two hundred Chinese soldiers and civilians were stripped naked, tied to columns and doors of a school, and then stabbed by zhuizi -- special needles with handles on them -- in hundreds of points along their bodies, including their mouths, throats, and eyes. ... The Japanese subjected large crowds of victims to mass incineration. In Hsiakwan a Japanese soldier bound Chinese captives together, ten at a time, and pushed them into a pit, where they were sprayed with gasoline and ignited." (Chang, The Rape of Nanking, pp. 87-88.)

http://www.gendercide.org/case_nanking.html

[rd_kent]

136. That quite a large post just to get to the point, which seems to be "if muslims had done what they

did first, then the christians would not have had so murder them like that."


I see now. Thanks for clearing it up.

[snagglepuss]

141. Yawn. Another strawman. That statement no where comes close to my

position that the OP ought to have mentioned that this massacre is part of an ever worsening cycle of violence. In a few days or weeks we'll read about attacks on Christians as retribution. That is a given. Both sides are guilty of the ongoing violence and it won't end soon because religion is involved.

[rd_kent]

143. Great. Thanks for validating what I thought you meant.

Both sides are guilty of the ongoing violence


That is true, but in THIS case, christians brutally murdered muslims. They could have chosen NOT to do it, but they did it anyway. They own this atrocity and no amount of blame spreading will change that fact.

I am glad we agree.

[snagglepuss]

152. But the OP does not mention ongoing violence. The crime is presented

as a one off event. You're not doing anyone in Nigeria any favours trying to paint one side as victims. Anyone watching events in Nigeria knew that something like this was bound to happen and its going to get worse because each side believes they are victims not perpetrators and that just creates more animosity on both sides.

[rd_kent]

157. So what? In THIS case, there ARE innocent victims.....

Innocent victims of a horrific act committed by christians.


The past history in no way removes any responsibility from the christians that did this.

[snagglepuss]

159. So after aq wholesale denunciation what in your opinion what is the next step?

[darkstar3]

162. Don't try that again.

You never answered the counterpart question or anything else regarding this "next step" in #128.

[rd_kent]

165. For me? Nothing. For you? To own the facts that people are horrifically murdering others

that do not share the same faith as they do, more specifically, your faith. (if you are not a christian, my apologies)

[snagglepuss]

168. If you read my posts you'd see I am disgusted by religion which is simply a tribal

mindset so your insinuations are way off the mark.

[rd_kent]

169. Thats why I apologized in advance in case I was wrong.

I do not see that sentiment in your posts, however.

[snagglepuss]

171. see post 133

"spreading the blame doesn't mean that I the condone violence or excuse it. In fact the reason I am so adamant about this is that I am disgusted by religious fanaticism. I am disgusted with each side vying to present themselves as victims. I am disgusted by the egotism and tribalism that is on display on both sides.

What has to be condemned is the unquestioning adherence to any particular belief. This violence isn't going to end unless people step back from religious obession and put our shared humanity before some notion of God."



I don't make my view explicit in every post because its interesting to see who jumps to conclusions.

[rd_kent]

172. Well, I guess we are in agreement then.

This was fun, we should do it again sometime.

[darkstar3]

140. Nothing, ever, period, end of story,

no substitutions, exchanges, or refunds, can excuse or mitigate the voluntary and premeditated slaughter of innocents. If the Japanese had Roman-style raped and decimated their way across the western half of the US it STILL wouldn't excuse or validate the premeditated and voluntary slaughter of innocents committed by the dropping of the bombs.

There's no spin involved here, except the spin you wish to create as you attempt to excuse the inexcusable. You claimed before that you've "never defended anyone in this thread", but you most certainly ARE defending and attempting to excuse the slaughter of innocents, both in Japan in 1945 and in Nigeria in 2010. :puke:

Let me break this down for you with a little questionnaire:

1. Did the children of group A harm or pose threat in any way to group B?
Yes: 0 points.
No: 1 point.

2. Did the members of group B kill the children of group A?
Yes: 1 point.
No: 0 points.

If you scored two points on this questionnaire, then group B has committed a monstrous and unforgivable crime against humanity. They deserve to be ridiculed, denounced, and where possible punished immediately by every decent person on the planet, and anyone who will defend them deserves the same fate.

[snagglepuss]

149. The bombs stopped the killing of innocents victim of Japanese aggression.

As well as slaughtering millions of men, women and child, the Japanese conducted countless experiments on men, women and children however unlike the Germans, the Japanese were aware they were committing war crimes and were quite thorough at destroying evidence. You are utterly irrational if you think the Japanese spared children.


The Japanese were killing 500,000 people per month during the war and there is no evidence to suggest that they were planning to stop anytime soon. So there was a choice, drop bombs on the aggressors who refuse to surrender or allow the aggressors to continue killing 500,000 people per month?

[darkstar3]

150. Japanese women and children were NOT the aggressors.

Your choice is a false dichotomy, because the bombs were dropped on innocents, not combatants, and they were dropped there because it would bring about the most expedient victory for our side, not because it would save the most lives.

You need to stop typing, because with every post you place yourself more firmly into the "I support crimes against humanity when I feel they are somehow righteous" camp. That is not a camp any of us want to be in.

[snagglepuss]

156. You gotta stop buying into propaganda campaigns. Were the millions of

Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Burmese, Vietnamese and Malay children aggressors against the Japanese? They along with their parents were slaughtered and experimented on. Are millions of deaths during Japan's protracted war of aggression less tragic, than the deaths that occurred as a result of the bomb?


As stated above, the Japanese were guilty of countless war crimes, but unlike other countries they destroyed evidence as they went along.

[darkstar3]

160. Did I say those deaths were less tragic?

No I did not. But they will never excuse the dropping of the bombs. Nothing ever will.

And the only one buying and participating in propaganda campaigns here is you. Propaganda designed to defend the perpetrators of sickening crimes against humanity. Your equivocation in no way refutes what I have said in #140, and only makes you sound more and more as if you would be among those who had committed these crimes given the proper provocation. I have no desire to continue repeating myself, so if you think of something that you believe makes a better point about your view on this matter, refer to #140.

[Jim__]

147. I think our "shared humanity" is a large part of the problem.

There is a lot of evidence that hunter-gatherers were very warlike, for example this article. If we are war-like by nature, we may not be able to completely prevent wars (although we can try to work toward that); but we can take a serious look at the paradoxical predicament we are in. We can try to minimize the risks of atrocities and the risk of the ultimate destruction of all humanity through technological "advances." But, denying who we are or putting the blame on extraneous attributes, only puts us at greater risk.

[DeSwiss]

7. This is the line that caught my eye in the article....

But the Catholic Archbishop of Jos, Ignatius Kaigama, told the BBC that religion was not the real cause of the violence. "It is the struggle for ethnic and political superiority in Jos," he said. "If this issue is not resolved then we will witness a cycle of violence. There has to be some political solution."

- Yeah, right reverend. Religion's hands are totally clean here. Except for the fact that the only point of difference between attackers and victims seems to be religion. As usual.

K&R

[BrklynLiberal]

duh! Guess he forgot about that...

[humblebum]

50. I happen to think he's right on with that statement. It is human fanaticism

and extremism that is the underlying cause of such things. The most atrocious massacres in all of human history were carried out under atheistic dictators by declared atheists. No religion involved. Was atheism the culprit in these cases? Of course not. But human extremism and fanaticism were quite plainly.

[rd_kent]

57. Oh my fucking god! You are doing it AGAIN!

Regardless of your continued idiotic claim of The most atrocious massacres in all of human history were carried out under atheistic dictators by declared atheists does nothing to excuse the fact that THIS act WAS done in the name of religion, YOUR religion. YOU get to live with that.

[humblebum]

60. I'm doing what again? Using common sense?

If you had been following any of the news from Nigeria for the past few months you would know that both sides have been committing serious atrocities. Do you think if atheism was the norm these things would not be happening? Chances are it would make no difference. Oh yes. Get used to it.

[darkstar3]

62. The point,

if you have eyes to see it, is that you are once again dragging atheism as a red herring into a conversation where it is unrelated. You are thread-hijacking. Again.

In point of fact it seems very difficult to find a post of yours in R/T that doesn't somehow mention atheism in an unfavorable light, so the phrase "you're doing it again" seems quite apt.

Are you playing some sort of drinking game? Does someone have to take a shot everytime you say "atheism" or "atheist"? Enlighten me, please, because I'm having trouble understanding why you harp on this subject so very, very often.

[humblebum]

63. Do you think it is a coincidence that my posts are often showing up

whenever the subject of the thread is anti-religious in nature and it just happens to be a few atheists trying to fan the anti-religious flames? In that light it seems quite logical that you are going to run into a little interference. This is an open forum and you have every right to express yourself and so do I. My comments are very related to the subject at hand because it is very narrow - minded to think that religion is the sole cause of these problems. Add over-population, poverty, oil, and greed to the mix. If you were really concerned about any of these problem you would be attempting to put forth a solution, but all I see is your normal anti-religious rhetoric.

[darkstar3]

64. Excuse me?

"MY normal anti-religious rhetoric"?? And just exactly where or what would that be?

[humblebum]

69. There is no excuse for you. (sarcasm) But please don't be trite.

But I am sorry for insulting your intelligence. You and I disagree on most things and that will continue, but your intelligence I will attack no more. Your opinions, probably, but not your intelligence.

[darkstar3]

71. Once again,

where is this anti-religious rhetoric of which you speak. You have made a libelous claim about me, and I have challenged it. Answer with proof, or retract.

[humblebum]

77. I don't have time to write a book, but you know as well as I do

that you're leaving yourself open. "The missionaries told us of how many souls they had saved, how many bibles..." and - missionaries are in Haiti for the wrong reasons."- just two of many, all I need to do is look up a thread and there you are. Libelous? You accused me of saying things never said - over and over. Like I said don't be trite.

[darkstar3]

79. Oh, I get it.

I tell the truth, in fact a story from my own experience, attacking no individual person or faith but instead making a point about ulterior motives being applied to charity, and you call it anti-religious rhetoric. It seems any statement about religion that is not positive is, to you, anti-religious rhetoric.

At least you provided what you thought was proof. You're still very wrong, but I doubt you'll understand that. Here's a shot at explaining it to you:

Anti-religious rhetoric:
"Fuck religion, and everyone who participates."
"Everyone who believes in God is delusional."
"Religion is the source of everything that is awful in this world."

My claims that you cite above hardly fall into that category.

[humblebum]

94. I love the way you constantly rationalize nearly everything

you try to defend. You are going to believe what you believe and that is your right, though I don't agree with you.

[darkstar3]

97. Rationalization has nothing to do with it.

Facts are what they are. "Rhetoric", in the derogatory sense in which you have used the term here, means either of the following things from Dictionary.com:
1. (in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.
2. Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous.

As clarified above, the statements I provided as examples DO qualify as rhetoric under either of those definitions, while the quotes you wish to attack me with do not.

Just like you abuse and misuse the terms "fundamental" and "fallacy", you are now misusing the term "rhetoric."

Of course, that's not the real issue here. The real issue is that you incessantly feel the need to goad people into arguing with you over atheism in threads where atheism is irrelevant. I feel like I'm back in 2008 and watching people argue with Rudy Guiliani, except instead of beating 9/11 like a dead horse, you're beating atheism. There are many other topics in R/T, and this thread is just one of them.

Christians are killing Muslims in the streets of Nigeria, and that's what THIS thread is about. If you'd like to say something about that topic, then I encourage you to do so. If you think that religion in general is in fact under attack here, then maybe you should attempt to defend religion on its merits rather than resulting to simple, repetitive, ad hominem blasts at atheism which do nothing to support your case.

[humblebum]

104. You are doing it again. And how is discussing atheism

with atheists in an RT thread irrelevant when the purpose of the thread is to single out one particular group for condemnation, while ignoring all other contributing factors of a much larger problem. I am merely framing the problem within the context of the much larger human history to show that this behavir is not limited to any specific group.

[darkstar3]

106. Which doesn't. support. your. case.

"Well they did it too!" is not an argument, but rather a logical fallacy known as ad hom tu quoque. It doesn't matter who else has committed atrocities in the past. Any atrocity is inexcusable, and in this case, it is the Christians of Nigeria who have committed one. They get to own that, and if you wish to defend them, then so do you. Atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Rastafarianism, Pastafarianism, Carlinism, or any other -ism you can think of really have no place here.

Show me a news story where Muslims kill Christians in horrific ways, and I'll condemn that as inexcusable as well.

Christians vs. Muslims, Jews vs. Muslims, Catholics vs. Protestants, and even Jews vs. Christians...These conflicts have been going on for millennia, and every time one side takes it upon themselves to slaughter innocents from the other side, it is and always has been inexcusable. There can be no defense for this, no matter the provocation. Anyone who defends or equivocates these actions out of blind allegiance to the faith of the slaughterers washes their hands in the blood of innocents.

[humblebum]

108. But what it does show clearly is that this type of behavior is

not limited to religion, by any means. And in that sense it is quite logical.

[darkstar3]

109. And that doesn't matter,

which is why this is still nothing but a thread hijack to discuss your favorite topic.

[humblebum]

112. But it very much matters when prejudice against a single group

is being formulated. These are the kinds of things that need to be discussed if such things are to be avoided. You are again rationalizing.

[darkstar3]

145. See #140.

This isn't about prejudice against a single group, you just want to make it about that.

[humblebum]

107. BTW, I am standing by my usage of the terms you point out here.

rhetoric : "intellectually vacuous" or as Oxford puts it: (2) language with a persuasive or impressive effect, but often lacking sincerity or meaningful content.

fundamentalism: Oxford: "(2) the strict maintenance of the ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion or IDEOLOGY" (new atheism).

And about your use of logical fallacies, they leave a lot to be desired. The words ad hoc and vacuous pretty much describe your reasoning. But then I'm used to that.

[darkstar3]

110. Color me unsurprised.

I'll let the audience judge my reasoning, as I have no qualms about its sound nature.

Did you have something on topic to contribute to this thread?

[thereismore]

8. because their god is bigger than other people's god... nt

[Jester Messiah]

12. Religious sects butchering each other? I am shocked... SHOCKED I tell you! [nt]

[madrchsod]

14. far more complex than an a simple religious war...

http://en.afrik.com/article16779.html

http://en.afrik.com/article16815.html

http://en.afrik.com/article16806.html

this is from dec 1 2008

http://en.afrik.com/article14959.html

[janet118]

18. Jesus must be real proud of his so-called followers . . .

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" - Jesus

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Jesus

"Love your neighbor as yourself." - Jesus

Jan. 2010 – At least 460 people are reported killed after clashes between Muslim and Christian gangs in Jos, most by gunfire. Police impose a 24-hour curfew, enforced by hundreds of soldiers and police. The violence started after an argument between Muslim and Christian neighbours over rebuilding homes destroyed in the 2008 clashes.

"Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too." - John Lennon

"We have the ability to take (Chavez) out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," -Pat Robertson on the Christian Broadcast Network's The 700 Club.

[struggle4progress]

23. Same old same old from our R/T forum: a complete lack of interest in the actual

economical, historical, and political issues that underlie such tragedies. For a certain group of posters in R/T, the human dimensions of tragedy are irrelevant: a tragedy is only of interest because it offers an opportunity for ideological snark about religion

ACCESS RIGHTS AND CONFLICT OVER COMMON POOL RESOURCES ON THE JOS PLATEAU, NIGERIA
Report to WORLD BANK/UNDP/DFID-JEWEL
(Jigawa Enhancement of Wetlands Livelihoods Project)
... Plateau State has been the scene of very serious inter-communal conflict since 2000 ... A violent conflict in Jos in September 2001 has had serious repercussions in the countryside, while ongoing guerrilla warfare in the Wase-Langtang area continues to cause many deaths and displacement of pastoral communities ... Plateau State is distinctive for its high level of ethnolinguistic diversity, and it is populated by a great variety of small groups living in hamlets, with a complex clan organisation and ritual kingship systems. This has ensured that no one language or people is dominant ... The capital of Plateau State, Jos, is a colonial creation ... Jos has attracted migrants from all over Nigeria to work in the tin mines and related service industries .. and its human population may be as much as one million ... However, the last thirty years has seen a significant change in the farming systems, with important implications for the economy of the Plateau, as well as for the interaction between pastoralists and farmers ... The Jos Plateau attracted pastoralists in the nineteenth century when its human population was relatively sparse. The discovery of tin and the subsequent growth of Jos, inevitably brought a major expansion of the farming population, and all but very marginal land was brought into cultivation. Colonial officials were already noting instances of farmer-grazier conflict on the Plateau as early as the 1940s ... These agronomic changes did not take place without problems; pastoralists came to river-banks previously covered in grass to find tomatoes. Young men herded their cattle between upland cereal fields and the cattle strayed into the crops. However, these types of conflicts were usually settled informally and the types of violent clashes characteristic of some other northern states were not characteristic of Plateau. However, from 2001 onwards the situation has changed dramatically in character, with urban conflicts being replayed in rural areas with unattractive consequences for all sides ... A major consequence of the crisis has been that a number of key stock routes across the Jos Plateau, especially those passing near Miango, Riyom and Vom are now permanently blocked and are unlikely to re-open in the near future. There has been a response to this, albeit hard to interpret. In October 2002, a series of attacks by well-armed
groups on villages in the Jos area began and continued through into 2003 with the Berom people of Rim and Bachit the principal victims. The attackers are widely to believed to be mercenaries, coming either from Niger or further north in Nigeria, and their goal seems to be creation of mayhem rather than theft. It is widely believed that this is revenge exacted by the Ful∫e for the earlier killings, but this seems unlikely. More probable is that elite northern interests are taking advantage of the situation to foment disorder. The consequence has been to further sow distrust in rural areas but also to give the resident farming populations a powerful rationale for permanently taking over valuable Ful∫e farmland along rivers ...
<html by google:> http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:JikdN_pyzBYJ:www.rogerblench.info/Conflict/Jos%2520section%2520only.pdf+%2Bjos+conflict+history&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
<original pdf:> http://www.rogerblench.info/Conflict/Jos%20section%20only.pdf

[skepticscott]

42. It's certainly true that

conflicts that are ostensibly between religious groups often have roots that reach beyond religion, and in some cases have gone on so long and engendered such deep resentment that the religious issues, whatever they originally were, have become secondary (the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the violence in Northern Ireland, for example).

But the fact remains that we never see headlines like "Big Bang adherents hack Steady-Staters to death" or "Atheist Alliance meeting bombed...American Atheists claim responsibility".

[struggle4progress]

48. Facts first; abstractions and analysis after. How can one obtain a useful

and scientific understanding of the actual situation, without first making a careful study of the underlying facts? One can spin out all manner of verbal hypotheses without much effort: one could say, for example, This is motivated by religious teachings or Deep anxieties and conflicts here are expressed in religious language, because that is the culturally available vocabulary or This is an ethnic conflict, but the ethnic divisions parallel traditional religious divisions or Some people find it useful to portray this as a religious conflict, because that helps obscure the real issues or I don't really have a very good understanding of what's happening, but I see different religious groups involved, so I'm going to call it a religious conflict or any of a thousand other statements, none of which can mean diddly-squat if they aren't the result of a thorough examination of the facts

One should ask about the history, since events fifty or seventy-five years ago are likely to have produced particular attitudes in various subgroups. One should ask about existing material conflicts, over issues such as land ownership and use, since these provide aggrieved populations and flash points. One should ask about current politics and the strategies of current politicians and opportunities for demagoguery. The actual story may be complex: for example, there may simultaneously be religious conflict, criminal activity portrayed as religious conflict, government human rights abuses portrayed as religious conflict, and so on

[skepticscott]

51. You went a long and wordy way

to avoid any analysis of the one fact I gave you. Try again.

[struggle4progress]

59. Translation: You didn't like the questions I asked

[skepticscott]

61. You apparently did not like

the point I raised in response to your previous windy diatribe, and in support of the OP's point, since you saw fit to take a great many words to ignore it completely.

So why is it that we never see headlines like "Big Bang adherents hack Steady-Staters to death" or "Atheist Alliance meeting bombed...American Atheists claim responsibility", if factionalism in science and atheism are just as likely to impel people to murderous rage as factionalism in religion?

[struggle4progress]

70. If you ever actually decide to read something, try the links here:

Nigeria is a British colonial invention, formally unified as a "Protectorate" in 1914
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x234229

[mike_c]

28. the religiously insane on a rampage....

Religion = mental illness. Period.

[rug]

31. You should write headlines for the New York Post.

[rd_kent]

58. Whats wrong with it? Is both factual AND accurate.

Something that you seem to be lacking when it comes to the subject of religion.

[kwassa]

67. You distort information by giving only a small part of it.,

The small part that fulfills your hate-Christian agenda.

[rd_kent]

85. You seem to think that by talking about what led up to this, it somehow diminishes the acts christia...

committed. I understand that there is prior conflict, but that in no way minimizes the horrific acts Christians just committed.

[rug]

72. So is "HEADLESS BODY IN TOPLESS BAR".

Nuance rarely informs your opinions.

[rd_kent]

86. Yup, factual and accurate, just like the OP's title. Is there a problem with it?

[rug]

95. No, it's a perfectly sober and clearheaded title.

[rd_kent]

96. Well, I am glad we can agree on something.

[niyad]

47. k and r--I want to thank all the posters for the information and valuable links.

[BolivarianHero]

49. Not surprising...That country's a fucking powder keg.

Grinding poverty, Muslim extremists, and exponential growth of Pentecostalism and other far-right "Christian" sects. I'm pretty damn sure it's not the Catholics, the Anglicans, or ordinary Muslims doing shit.

I would be willing to bet my bank account that one of the country's many kooky fundamentalist hate cults is to blame. American fundie missionaries are worse for Africa than the British ever were.

[moobu2]

52. African Catholics have done some pretty barbaric stuff over the years.

In Rwanda several Nuns and priests were convicted of genocide and crimes against humanity and I remember about 10 years ago these ex-Catholic Priests and Nuns started this cult called "The Movement for the restoration of the ten commandmenets of God" and predicted that the world would end on a specific day, when that day came and went with no end of the world, they started killing the followers and some of the family members that came looking for their loved ones. The death toll was between 500 - 1000. They boarded up the church full of followers at one point and burned it with some of them trapped inside.

[kwassa]

66. What does this have to do with Nigeria?

Getting pretty far afield from your OP, aren't you?

[struggle4progress]

74. The point of the OP was entirely ideological: it was not motivated by any interest

in Nigeria; it was simply intended to push a simple-minded ahistorical view of Nigeria's problems, that disregards material land and resource conflicts, driven by grim poverty

Hope you're recovering OK :hi:

[moobu2]

78. I posted a God Damned news article about a bunch of Christians killing

Muslims...WTF is wrong with you people? As if any other long ago issues could excuse this barbarism. A bunch of Christians burned a lot of Muslims alive INCLUDING CHILDREN!! deal with it. Who gives a crap about some shit that happened 5-10-40 or 100 years ago. Christians are killing Muslims in Nigeria TODAY!

[struggle4progress]

80. ... Witnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch said that groups of armed men attacked the largely

Muslim population of Kuru Karama around 10 a.m. on January 19, 2010. After surrounding the town, they hunted down and attacked Muslim residents, some of whom had sought refuge in homes and a local mosque, killing many as they tried to flee and burning many others alive. The witnesses said they believed members of the armed groups to be Christians ... One of the town's Muslim imams wounded in the attack told Human Rights Watch that a Christian pastor tried to stop the attack but was beaten by the armed mob. There are conflicting reports of the police response. One witness reported that at least one police officer participated in the attack, while another said the police abandoned their post shortly before the violence began. Witnesses said the killings took place throughout the day, without police intervention to stop the violence, despite repeated calls to the police ... There are conflicting reports of what triggered the Jos violence. Civil society leaders reported that it began with an argument over the rebuilding of a Muslim home destroyed in the November 2008 violence in a predominately Christian neighborhood. Police Commissioner Greg Anyating said the trigger was an attack by Muslim youth on Christian worshippers in the Nassarawa Gwom district of Jos, which Muslim leaders deny. There are also several credible reports that the military and police used excessive force against both Christians and Muslims in responding to the violence ...

Nigeria: Protect Survivors, Fully Investigate Massacre Reports
At Least 150 Killed by Mobs in Kuru Karama
JANUARY 23, 2010
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/01/22/nigeria-protect-survivors-fully-investigate-massacre-reports

[moobu2]

87. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

From the holy scriptures themselves...

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

[struggle4progress]

88. You show your own ignorance clearly, by speaking as if you knew things you really do not know.

For here you have a headline, that portrays the griefs of Nigeria as if this were just a matter of one religion in conflict with another, and because this serves your prejudices, you follow your prejudices, even when I point you to eyewitnesses whose testimony contradicts your preconceptions. Your interest here is not really in these events or how one ought to respond: rather it is in the use that you can make of these events to sneer, as if the misery of humanity were there just for your entertainment and superiority. Nor is it enough for you that you should merely mock and sneer at human misery and provide empty claims to further lay blame for it; no, you hunt in old books, seeking words that you want to use to fan the flames; in fact, fanning the flames in the only use you want to find for such passages. Now, these passages are not read as you want them read, even among most Jews for whom these primary texts: for did not a chief Rabbi in Israel recently go to apologize to the Muslims there, when a few fanatics burned down their mosque? But if the Rabbi, who is an expert in reading these texts, does not read it as you do, how well that shows that you do not know how to read, since it is merely your intention to mock and sneer at human misery and to sow strife and discord in order to have further opportunity to mock and sneer again. But the proper response to the griefs and sorrows of the world is not to mock and sneer, as you do, but to extend a hand in sorrow and friendship, as the Rabbi did. So with your talk of holy scriptures -- of them you would make no good use: no, you insist on making of them some ugly use, though it would actually be better for all of us, and better for you too, if you set them aside and did not use them at all. Our days on earth are few; they are happy in whom the promise is fulfilled I will take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

[moobu2]

89. If only I were more knowledgeable about the complexities of Nigerian culture and history,

then like you, I could find some excuse for Christians burning Muslims alive and hacking some others to death with machetes, including children, leaving nearly 20,000 people homeless and afraid to return home. Gotcha.

[snagglepuss]

122. Ironic how much you and your tag team sound like the Israeli govt

denouncing anyone who dares mention context when a Palestinian commits act of barbarity against civilians.

[darkstar3]

124. See #123

and why are you posting the exact same message in the exact same thread in a different place. You DO know people can read the whole thread, right?

[rd_kent]

137. So now the Jews have some kind of culpability here now too!!! WTF????

[moobu2]

76. I was just posting a few examples of Catholics murdering people

in Africa. The poster I was responding to said that they didn’t think Catholics could be responsible for this for some reason and that this Christian murder rampage was most likely caused by some “American fundie missionaries” which very well could be given Christianities history in general...All we really know is a bunch of Christians burned a lot of Muslims alive and hacked some others to death with machetes…including some children. Understand now?

[SidDithers]

103. Can't you just feel that religious love?...nt

Sid

[redqueen]

111. deleted