What's not in the Bible...

[Melodybe]

http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=3950

[James T. Kirk]

1. Some of that really is in there.

Christmas - The day of Christ's birth is so in there. The commemoration of that day was instituted by His followers - you know, the folks who wrote and published the bible.

Easter - They didn't call it "Easter" when it first happened, but the first Easter is in there - multiple times.

Marriage = one man and one woman - Read the Adam and Eve part again.

Life begins at conception - "Even in the womb I knew you" (or something like that) & "Blessed is the fruit of thy womb".

Sabbath = Sunday - Same as Easter. Implemented by the church He founded.

The Holy Trinity - Too lengthy to get into here.

Prayer in Schools -


Are you one of those "sola scriptura" folks who thinks that the bible is the only source and not Christian tradition and church teaching?

[greekspeak]

2. THings I would like to point out in your post

"Christmas - The day of Christ's birth is so in there." What day does the Bible say it is? I would love to know, as this would answer a major question people in my profession have.

"The commemoration of that day was instituted by His followers - you know, the folks who wrote and published the bible." The canonical books of the Bible discuss very briefly the birth of Jesus. It was only later that it became an important holiday--when the Christians began to dominate and needed an event to replace pagan holidays with Christian ones.


"Marriage = one man and one woman - Read the Adam and Eve part again." Where does the Bible say Adam and Eve were married? Very little is said about a ceremony called marriage, for there really was not one. Women were property exchanged between two men, a father and a husband. There were celebrations far back in history. For this exchange of property. Love and all that other mushy stuff involved in weddings of today were not there. Of course marriage involved a man and a woman. Men were not transferable property, unless they were a slave in some cultures.

"Even in the womb I knew you" (or something like that)" What does this have to do with the moment of conception? Does it say, "The second you were conceived I knew you?" No. In the ancient world, even among Christians, children were aborted.

"Blessed is the fruit of thy womb". "Fruit of a womb" indicates a born child. That is what makes it "fruit."

"Sabbath = Sunday." Incorrect. The Sabbath lasts from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

"The Holy Trinity - Too lengthy to get into here." The trinity is not found in the Bible without special pleading. It is a doctrine from a later stratum of Christianity.

[PunkPop]

3. Mmm. I guess he's not coming back.

Too bad. I think you had some pretty good points. Was waiting breathlessly for his answer :eyes: .

Maybe something came up at StarFleet Command. :shrug:

[James T. Kirk]

28. You think I'm not coming back? Or Jesus isn't coming back?

;-) O8)

[SouthernDem2004]

75. So he did not respond instantly to you so you make fun of him. Nice. /nt

[FreedomAngel82]

10. I also wanted to add

On Christmas it's actually known that he was more-so born in April. Why December? Beats me. But I've read studies on this because I was curious myself. In the story of Christ's birth it only tells what happens around him. Mary and Joseph were there in Bethlem for a census. Back then you had to travel back to your birth town and sign the book or whatever instead of what we do today. That's why they couldn't find a place to stay either because so many people had returned. The account also shows that the sheep were grazing in the fields. According to people who live in that area in the winter time all the grass is frozen and cold in the winter so how could sheep be grazing in the winter time?
I have no idea where they got December 25th for Christmas. It's always been a mystery to me. If you google for the information there are plenty of Christian sites that acknowledge he was NOT born on December 25th but more-so in April.

With the marriage ordeal there is a passage that says something about abortion. Here it is: And when he hath made her drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed." (Numbers 5:27-28)

So even God sometimes does abortion. :shrug: What I've gathered from that verse is that God knows our souls our spirit selves before we come here to earth through our mothers. Our bodies are just our shells for being here on this plane and planet. So that's what I've always gathered from that verse. The trinity is believed to be the holy ghost, the Father and the Son together. They are believed to be one and the same.

[Art_from_Ark]

31. The Trinity, I believe, refers to the three religions of Jerusalem

Father-- Yahweh/God, object of worship of Judaism
Son-- Son of God (Jesus), object of worship of Christianity
Holy Ghost-- Allah, object of worship of Islam

All of these beings are considered to be essentially the same being, in their respective religions.

[James T. Kirk]

37. Interesting.

I think the Father essentially the God of the Jews and the Islamic Allah is intended to be the same guy. I'm no expert on Islam, but I'll bet most muslims would think Allah and the Father are the same Guy.

[Igel]

139. The idea of the trinity precedes Islam

by a few centuries.

[CatholicEdHead]

39. To coencide with former pagan holidays to get converts

As Christmas is during the winter solstice, easter near the spring equinox, All Saints Day/Halloween near the fall equinox. Many pagan festivals revolved around those days. To get converts, the calendar was adjusted to get them converted quicker.

[Clark2008]

56. The Catholics moved it to December to coincide with a major

and much more celebrated - Pagan holiday.

They used good, old-fashioned marketing to draw interest into the birth of the Christ and didn't feel bad about it since no one knew, exactly, when Jesus was born.

I knew it was Spring, because Mary and Joseph were heading to Bethlehem to pay their taxes - traditionally, ironically enough, when property taxes are STILL due in most areas of the world (wow, talk about some traditions dying hard!) and to participate in a census.

In any case, that's how the tree and wreaths and all the greenery became part of the Christian holiday - it's actually a blend of a very Christian and a very Pagan holiday. :)

P.S. - Wanted to mention that the marketing plan obviously worked. The Catholics, of which I am lapsed, have always been good on that ground. Wish they would be better on the sacred ground.

[LostinVA]

74. Xmas is celebrated in December because of Pagan beliefs

ie having Christmas be close to the Solstice/Yule.Many Christian traditions, etc. are rooted very deeply in Pagan beliefs, especially Easter. Even the name!

[China_cat]

79. December 25th is the feast of Saturnalia

in the Roman god pantheon. Christianity has ever used the old religious dates and places to establish itself and 'change over' the worshipers of the old religions. (And, of course, there was always the stake and a torch for those who wouldn't be persuaded) In the same way, Samhain (the end of the pagan year) became 'All Hallows' or Halloween and the date of Easter (Oestre) is still calculated by the date of the vernal equinox. (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/easter.html for how they calculate it)

Other points not hit on...Lilith; Adam's first mate. The differing kings who, with 'god's' blessing (according to the bible) had many wives and extra concubines. The blessing of adultery in some cases.

[Terran]

99. Re the origin of December 25th

The Persian god Mithra, god of light and wisdom, was said to have been born on December 25th. Mithra had a huge following, mainly among men, throughout the ancient world, in the century following Jesus. His followers found it helpful to conglomerate the two by adopting Mithra's birthdate as Jesus' own. There are numerous other similarities between the two.

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Mesopotamia/Mithraism/mithra.htm

[Igel]

138. I thought the concensus had him born in the

fall.

I.e., timing the census with sukkoth.

[James T. Kirk]

11. Christmas

The bible does not say when Christ was born. I was raised Christian and I knew from early on that it was an approximate date set by the church. I'm sure it's moved with changes in calendars and changes in the earths rotation and so on. Same with the date of Easter. Christ wasn't born in exactly 0 A.D., either.

[orpupilofnature57]

25. G.E invented what most people think of as Christmas!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

50. Christmas= Winter Solstice

[James T. Kirk]

63. Near the same time, but not the same thing.

Hark the herald angels sing,
glory to the revolution of the earth about the sun!

Hmmm. I like the other way better!
O8)

[greekspeak]

85. 12/25 is the date of TWO major pagan holidays

1) Saturnalia-a Roman holiday celebrated with the overturning of everyday life. Masters served slaves for instance.

2) The Feast of Mithras, a death/rebirth cult very similar in many ways to Christianity. Some even say that the Roman Catholic cardinals' garb copies the garb Mithraic priests wore. There is a Mithraeum beneath St. Peters. They even had a "baptism" in blood.


Both were major holidays when Christianity was in its youth. Solstice traditions come into the mix--Christmas trees, yule logs, boughs of holly. All that jazz. But Christmas does not coincide with the solstice on the calendar.

[James T. Kirk]

26. Fruit of the Womb = Fetal Jesus

That phrase came from when Mary, pregnant with Jesus, went to see Elizabeth. Liz said blessed "is" the fruit of thy womb, not blessed "will be" the fruit of thy womb. I think that pregnant women understand that the baby is alive. Did they understand the details of conception and early pregnancy back in the olden days. Nope, but they knew at least that the pre-born baby was special.

[Sparkly]

36. The "fruit" of something is a "product" of it.

Such as the word "fruition."

See M-W:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fruit&x=18&y=14

2 : OFFSPRING, PROGENY
3 a : the state of bearing fruit <a tree in fruit> b : the effect or consequence of an action or operation : PRODUCT, RESULT <the fruits of our labor>

[James T. Kirk]

38. So is it a fruit before it falls off the tree?

Remember that the child leaped in the womb and the fruit comment was after that.

[Sparkly]

42. We're not talking about fruit from trees.

Jesus was the 'product' of Mary's womb, if you will.

[leesa]

54. Your arguments are so childish! Quite amusing!

[James T. Kirk]

64. Thanks. I'm glad mainstream Christians are so respected here!

Might I remind you that John Kerry is Catholic, too. He's beliefs are a laugh riot as well!
:sarcasm:

[Maddy McCall]

73. John Kerry is progressive on many issues.

I've yet to see any sign that you are. Want to point me to one single progressive post you've made on DU?

[James T. Kirk]

106. You can check yourself.

I'm for truth, justice and the American way.

I'm Catholic and so are millions of other decent folks. My beliefs aren't all that unusual. We're all around you - at work, school, everywhere. Get used to it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

115. He can't.

[Maddy McCall]

47. And Hosea? Or Moses? What about in Numbers 5?

"Ephraim's glory shall fly away like a bird—no birth, no pregnancy, no conception! Even if they bring up children, I will bereave them till none is left. Woe to them when I depart from them! Ephraim's sons, as I have seen, are destined for a prey; Ephraim must lead forth his sons to slaughter. Give them, O Lord—what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts." (Hosea 9:11-14).
________________
Even more shocking, we find that God actually mandates abortion when the fetus is a product of adultery (Numbers 5). A jealous and suspicious husband should bring his wife to the local priest, who forces the woman to drink a poisonous "water of bitterness" to bring on God's "curse". If she experiences "bitter pain," if her "belly swells" and her "thigh rots," she fails the test and becomes an outcast. Virtually all Biblical scholars agree that this voodoo ritual and its cloaked euphemisms refer to an induced (not to mention unsafe) abortion. The word "thigh" in the Old Testament usually means genitals, but in this case, it refers to the uterus and its contents. One alternate Bible translation reads, "She will have barrenness and a miscarrying womb." (New International Version)
_________________
Moses, the great liberator of Israel and God's right hand man, so to speak, had this to say to his victorious soldiers fresh from battle with all their "booty:"

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:17-18)

[James T. Kirk]

62. Yikes! I didn't expect such fundamentalist old testament opposition!

[Maddy McCall]

72. So are you saying abortion is tolerated in the Old T. but not in the New T

??

If so, then you are saying that you pick which scripture to follow and which to ignore.

[James T. Kirk]

108. I don't pick. We have an organized church.

Modern science tells us that a baby born at five months gestation is just as human as one born at nine. If you thing the way things were 3,000 years ago was better, hey, go for it.

[trotsky]

134. Flip-flop much?

First you said we could find in the bible why abortion is wrong. Now instead you turn to science.

[Bouncy Ball]

58. The FRUIT of your womb

is the BABY, upon birth.

Blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Blessed is the baby that will emerge from thy womb.

This really isn't that hard. Why do people insist on applying their own twists on these words?

[Clark2008]

60. It's the prayer.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

[James T. Kirk]

65. The prayer is a collection of bible quotes.

The Hail Mary part I think is from the angels greeting to Mary. The fruit part is from her meeting with Elizabeth while pregnant.

[greekspeak]

76. This "song of elizabeth" is a hymn predating the Gospel

Look it up in some commentaries if you do not beleive me. Next.

[LostinVA]

93. Beat me too it n/t

[greekspeak]

103. Great minds think alike, eh?

:hi:

[LostinVA]

122. Definitely!

[James T. Kirk]

27. Marriage

Here are two bible items describing marriage. We used them at our wedding!


The Creation of Woman
Genesis 2:18-24

The Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him and helpmate.”

So from the soil the Lord God fashioned all the wild beasts and all the birds of heaven. These he brought to the man to see what he would call them; each one was to bear the name the man would give it.

The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of heaven and all the wild beasts. But no helpmate suitable for man was found for him.

So the Lord God made the man fall into a deep sleep. And while he slept, he took one of his ribs and enclosed it in flesh.

The Lord God built the rib he had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.

The man exclaimed:

”This at last is bone from my bones,
and flesh from my flesh!
This is to be called woman,
for this was taken from man.”

This is why a man leaves his father and mother and joins himself to his wife, and they become one body.

========================================================

The Mystery of Marriage
Ephesians 5:2a, 21-33

Give way to one another in obedience to Christ. Wives should regard their husbands as they regard the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church and saves the whole body, so is the husband the head of his wife;
and as the Church submits to Christ, so should wives to their husbands, in everything.

[Sparkly]

44. That's a Biblical statement I don't heed.

"...so should wives (submit) to their husbands, in everything."

NOT necessarily a good idea, in my own humble opinion.

[James T. Kirk]

66. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as well.

It is a two-way commitment.

[Lars39]

100. It's NOT a 2-way committment when one has to obey the other.

[James T. Kirk]

109. But if I really love her, I would not use that.

My church taught me that we are equals. I am commanded to respect her.

[Lars39]

118. That's a pretty sad relationship if you have to be told to respect

your wife.

[blonndee]

53. You've omitted a whole lot there, friend.

Here's what you left out:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 - 27 (stuff about Jesus and the church)
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife that she reverence husband.

5:21 is also translated SUBMITTING YOURSELVES ONE TO ANOTHER IN THE FEAR OF GOD.

Wonder why that seems to be so often omitted in fundie-speak? (Not calling you a fundie, Kirk, but you've glossed over it as well).

[James T. Kirk]

67. Thanks!

I'm not trying to gloss over. I've only got a short time each day for internet and I'm trying to do this as fast as possible. I'm not a bible expert or anything, just going by what I've read, learned and experienced. I know especially the part where we are commanded to love our wives. And that does not just mean candle-light dinners and making whoopee. My wife and I went through pre-marriage training and learned that to love is so much more - and not always easy.

[Clark2008]

61. But you left out the part where Man submits to God.

If men did everything God asked them to do, then I wouldn't have a problem.

Thing is, that men don't adhere to God anymore than women mind their men.

:P

[James T. Kirk]

68. Thanks!

I'm not trying to leave anything out. This is a internet discussion. I don't have much time, so I'm typing as fast as I can.

[trotsky]

135. Describing marriage, sure

But do they set down a definition that marriage can ONLY be between a man and woman?

[James T. Kirk]

29. Sabbath on Sunday

Yeah, we moved it. Tradition holds that Jesus died on Friday and came back on a Sunday, so the day was moved to add reverence to that day. It was a managerial decision made by the church Jesus founded.

The bible is the main book of Christianity, but it is a teaching tool and a prayer tool, not an instruction manual.

(If you want in instruction manual, we have the catechism!)

[China_cat]

82. Can you explain to me

how you get 3 days from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning?

[James T. Kirk]

112. "On the third day, he rose from the dead."

Jesus' Easter to-do list

1. Friday afternoon - Die

2. Saturday - Stay dead

3. Sunday - Come back from the dead

Simple as 1, 2, 3!

It's three days, not 72 hours.

[Solomon]

86. Jesus didn't "found" any church.

[Walt Starr]

98. WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Your "tradition" explanation is total bullshit.

Sunday becamne the Sabbath day for the Roman church because it was the day of rest for Pagans in recognition of their Sun God.

Another instance where Pagan beliefs were usurped by the Roman church

The Roman church was ever a Pagan entity. Anybody who worships on sunday is practicing Pagan beliefs!

[James T. Kirk]

110. This is wild! I've had the same type of arguments with a fundamentalist!

And now I see it on DU. Oh, the irony!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

116. I'm Catholic too. Like John Kerry. Walt is correct.

n/t

[James T. Kirk]

130. So - you're Catholic and you don't believe ...

...the Lord's day is Sunday to commemorate the resurrection?

[Walt Starr]

120. You're hearing it on DU

from a Pagan.

[James T. Kirk]

142. Hmm. An odd intersection of beliefs!

[James T. Kirk]

30. Trinity

You are correct. The trinity is not clearly spelled out in the bible. I'm not expert enough of a bible scholar to explain it well, but who ever said it was plainly in the bible, anyway? There is much in Christian belief that is not in only the bible. We also have the teachings of the church as passed on from the early days and our traditions that are passed on.

[bunkerbuster1]

97. yeah, abortion is a classic made-up sin

how conveeenient, that.

[Bouncy Ball]

4. Nowhere does it say Adam and Eve were married.

[James T. Kirk]

32. It is clearly implied in Genesis.

You can see that since this is provided as description of future human marriages, this is intended to be an explanation of the first marriage.

============================

Genesis 2:18-24

The Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him and helpmate.”

So from the soil the Lord God fashioned all the wild beasts and all the birds of heaven. These he brought to the man to see what he would call them; each one was to bear the name the man would give it.

The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of heaven and all the wild beasts. But no helpmate suitable for man was found for him.

So the Lord God made the man fall into a deep sleep. And while he slept, he took one of his ribs and enclosed it in flesh.

The Lord God built the rib he had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.

The man exclaimed:

”This at last is bone from my bones,
and flesh from my flesh!
This is to be called woman,
for this was taken from man.”

This is why a man leaves his father and mother and joins himself to his wife, and they become one body.

====================================

[Bouncy Ball]

57. Aaaaand, where is this called marriage?

I know the Bible as well as anyone. Especially the Adam and Eve story, since I've studied the creation myths of different cultures (and I'm Christian just as an FYI).

Nowhere is Adam and Eve's relationship described as a marriage. Nowhere is there mention of a wedding.

"Clearly implied." :rofl:

So being created from a rib counts as getting married?

Give it up. Adam and Eve, as characters in Genesis, certainly were partners. They certainly did raise children together. But nowhere does it ever say they were MARRIED.

[James T. Kirk]

69. The main point is the last sentence in the bible quote.

"This is why a man leaves his father and mother and joins himself to his wife, and they become one body."

[really annoyed]

8. Please tell me you're joking

:shrug:

If you're not, please back up your assertions.

I'll get the ball rolling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

"Historians are unsure exactly when Christians first began celebrating the Nativity of Christ. However, most scholars believe that Christmas originated in the 4th century as a Christian substitute for pagan celebrations of the winter solstice, although this really falls on December 21."

Easter happen to be a "Pagan" substitue holiday also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

I happen to celebrate the secular aspects of both holidays - I like presents and ham.

And don't forget the shocking history of same-sex couples!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage

"That many early western societies tolerated, and even celebrated, same-sex relationships is well-known. Evidence of same-sex marriage, however, is less clear, but there exists some evidence, often controversial, of same-sex marriages in ancient Rome and Greece, and even in medieval Europe."

[James T. Kirk]

33. Christmas as a yearly holiday is not in the bible. But so what?

The first event was, but the holiday was instituted later by the church. I think we can agree on that. Same with Easter. And if they were used to supplant pagan holidays as pro-Christ advertising, so what? Our Christmas songs are a lot catchier and more fun to sing than all the pagan winter solstice songs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. Even the 'first event' is highly disputed

because Matthew and Luke disagree by 10 years as to when it happened.

http://www.geocities.com/logic_faith/date_of_birth_jesus_christ.htm

[James T. Kirk]

90. So if you take the bible literally, y'all got a problem.

[trotsky]

136. And if you don't take it literally, y'all got a bigger problem.

What parts are real, and what parts are allegorical?

Did Jesus really rise from the dead, or is that one of them there allegorical parts?

[blonndee]

15. "The day of Christ's birth" is described. "Christmas" the holiday is not.

eom

[blonndee]

22. Marriage = one man, one woman? What about Jacob, Rachael, and Leah?

What about Solomon's "seven hundred wives of royal birth" and "three hundred concubines"? (I Kings 11:3) Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines and was lauded as a king who "dealt wisely" and "walked in the way of David and Solomon." (2 Chron 11:17-23) These are just a few examples. Also, god condones polygamy in Deut 21:15.

[James T. Kirk]

70. Well you can believe in polygamy if you want, but I don't.

My church teaches against it.

[Vickers]

84. "My church teaches against it." Against the Bible?

And where is your church described in the Bible? :shrug:

[James T. Kirk]

89. "...and upon this rock I shall found my church."

My church is described when Christ renames Peter and makes him a leader among apostles. That's where.

[Vickers]

94. Most churches I've seen have considerably more frills than a rock

:eyes:

[James T. Kirk]

105. The "rock" is Peter, the first pope.

[Vickers]

119. Jesus said the word "pope" ?

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

123. No, he didn't. This is just Catholic tradition

From someone who taught CCD for many, many years. "Upon this rock" is open to many different interpretations, according to denominations and commentary. Baptists don't see it that way!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

34. Is that from the RW fundie Bible?

because it's not in my Bible. :eyes:

[James T. Kirk]

41. Actually no. Many fundies would say if it ain't in the bible it ain't so.

Which would mean they disagree with me. Many mainstream Christians believe in both scripture and the traditional teachings, which are supported by the bible, but not explicitly in there.


Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

[RetroLounge]

35. "Read the Adam and Eve part again"

The part where they screwed and had two sons, one who was a murderer of his brother and then screwed his mother or sister? How else did we descend from just two people?

:sheesh:

RL

[Kathy in Cambridge]

40. Something sure does smell....

:eyes:

[RetroLounge]

43. Yup...

RL

[James T. Kirk]

143. It's you!

[James T. Kirk]

45. Not fully explained in the bible.

In Genesis, there are clearly many other people around well after Adam and Eve's kids grow up. More than they could have on their own. Did I say every word of it was literal and none of it was allegorical? No. That would be fundie-talk.

[RetroLounge]

46. Uh huh...

RL

[James T. Kirk]

71. And your point is what? That much of bible is allegorical and not literal?

It's full of inconsistencies, contrdictions and elements drawn from pre-biblical sources.

We already knew that. My copy has extensive footnotes pointing them out.

[RetroLounge]

78. Were the footnotes written by Ann Coulter?

RL

[James T. Kirk]

88. No. What a weird comment.

[greekspeak]

80. Who gets to decide what is allegorical and what is literal?

"My copy has extensive footnotes pointing them out." Great. Were those footnotes were inspired by God too? Or were they the work of scholars/theologians/editors with their own agendas/baggage? Even the best of scholars, myself included, have baggage and agendas--no matter how well intentioned they are. Those footnotes are going to be based on the opinions and educated guesses of their compilers. Some footnotes are very scholarly, saying only what can be known with some certainty. In others of these "annotated" versions, they are written to explain a theological tradition's take on biblical material. So, any and all such notes have to be taken with a grain of salt.

As to the allegorical and literal meaning of Bible passages, this debate has been going on almost as long as the Bible passages themselves have existed. Far back into antiquity, there have been allegorical readings. Ancient Jews completed stories that seemed to be lacking something. Christians reinterpreted Hebrew scripture and what would become holy scripture for them. Usually, in the Christian church, this was done in light of heresy or some other dividing factor.

[James T. Kirk]

87. The church established by Jesus has the authority to do it.

They've been publishing new versions and translations for centuries.

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. That "establishment by Jesus" is one of the bits

that we have to decide is allegorical or literal. It's circular reasoning.

[LostinVA]

95. The echo a poster up thread: Jesus didn't found ANY church

If you believe in an historical Jesus, he did indeed have a ministry. He did not have a church, nor did he found one.

[greekspeak]

102. And which "church" do you think that was?

And remember that Jesus established no church. Jesus was a jew. An aramaic speaking, Torah beleiving, temple going, synagogue preaching Jew. Jesus was not a Christian.

[James T. Kirk]

111. Then why would he say "found"?

[greekspeak]

128. Why does who say found, and where does he say this?

Be specific please.

[James T. Kirk]

113. His followers were Christian.

They receied the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and we're still going strong. We have more members than ever!

[LostinVA]

124. They considered themselves Jews, not Christians

They were only "Christians" in the most general way. They followed the ministry/teachings of Christ, but were JEWS. Actually, in the beginning, only Jews could be a member of the sect.

Then Luke came along and wrote "Acts" and "Luke." It was purposely written for propaganda, to attract Gentiles. That's why you get alot of nasty stuff about certain Jews in this gospel.

Jesus didn't establish a Church, he established a sect of Judaism. The Romans founded the Church. This is zero evidence of Peter being the first Pope. This certainly doesn't negate anything about Jesus' message and ministry.

And, I am NOT anti-Christan, and really don't like your saying that up thread.

[greekspeak]

127. And at what point did they become Christian and no longer Jews?

This I gotta hear. It is not clear, after a close reading of the three synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) that the writers saw themselves as outside Judaism.

[LostinVA]

81. Non-Christian tradition teachez Adam had more than one wife

One even being Lilith, who was a Jinn.

[James T. Kirk]

114. Hmmm. I sure lots of folks do believe that.

But if they came to this board, they'd probably be called fundies and be criticized for believing in something not in the bible.

[LostinVA]

125. What's that supposed to mean?

This is Jewish tradition/mythology. So, you're calling Jews Fundies now? Making fun of THEIR tradition? See how easy it is to make that leap?

btw... I learned about this by reading CS Lewis' "The Magician Nephew," which lead me to explore this more. You know, Lewis, that atheist. Oh, wait. He was Anglican.

[James T. Kirk]

129. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I'm getting a lot of flak for believing in Christmas.

Imagine the flak that this discussion group would give someone who believed in Lilith!

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[orleans]

48. Jeremiah 1:5

"4Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

6Then said I:
"Ah, Lord GOD!
Behold, I cannot speak, for I am a youth." "
new king james
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%201%20;&version=50;

here's the contemporary english version:
"4The LORD said:
5"Jeremiah, I am your Creator,

and before you were born,

I chose you to speak for me

to the nations."

6I replied, "I'm not a good speaker, LORD, and I'm too young." "

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%201%20;&version=46;

maybe this has to do with reincarnation or destiny but i don't see where it says life begins at conception. DO YOU?

[Bouncy Ball]

59. Nope.

Seems to simply be God talking to a person he chose to speak for him on earth.

:shrug:

[ComerPerro]

92. Ok. I'll bite. None of that stuff is in there. Here's why

Those events you detail, Christmas (the day of Christ's birth) and Easter (the resurrection) are in the Bible, yes.

But they are events, not holidays. The Holidays Christmas and Easter celebrate said events, and are based not on Biblical accounts and instruction but rather dogmatic principles invented by man.


And, I gotta say, as far as "Life begins at conception" is concerned:

How the fuck does "Even in the womb I knew you" translate directly to: abortion and birth control are murder? And, even if it does, why take a vague line of scripture literally while willing to set aside God's Commandments such as Thou Shall Not Kill?

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.


But here's the point:

Those things mentioned by you and the OP: They are all the inventions of man based on interpretations of the Bible. They are not laid out expressly in the Bible. Policies held by the Church were set by man over generations in a fashion that would best suit the Church, and are not necessarily God's will.

By your logic, I could find a passage that I interpret to mean "Killing your neighbors and drinking their blood for nourishment is ok" and, with your reasoning, I could justifiably say that human sacrifice is "in the Bible".

[merh]

101. Public (school) prayer is addressed & Christ said don't do it

The Lord's Prayer

5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name. <1>
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done, <2>
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread, <3>
12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. <4>

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 6

[Igel]

140. Was he saying not to pray in public so as to be seen, without

sincerity and proper intent, or that it was the actual public aspect that was wrong. Similarly, is he saying keep the prayers simple--that's the goal--or saying it's not the verbiage and repetition, but the content that matters.

I've known people to give heartfelt public prayers that I don't think falls under Jesus' ban; indeed, all corporate worship is likely to include such. I've known people to give public prayers that were given to sound good, for them to be seen as good pray-ers, and just dripped in preaching that God wouldn't require, but the guy praying obviously thought someone within earshot needed to hear.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. What IS in the bible.

"..some beautiful poetry, a bloodstained history, a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of 10,000 lies." - Mark Twain

Which, after no small amount of study, I've found to be a pretty accurate description.

[RagAss]

6. Read the Gospel of Thomas...

The Gnostic one that was suppressed.

[greekspeak]

24. Why not read all the excluded gospels?

The infancy gospels are some great reading. Jesus killing and maiming his little freinds.

[DanCa]

7. Abortion

Abortion was never once mentioned in it.
Being gay never made it in the top ten commandments.

[orpupilofnature57]

9. Revelation, has a child being ripped from his mothers womb, Infidelity

is mentioned by Jesus, as is whore mungers, of course he loved people more than he loved judging them, Shrub.

[DanCa]

12. Is it king james and page please?

not doubting but if its been a long time since i read revelations. I want to read the whole passage. Thanks.

[DanCa]

19. Orpupilofnature57 my appologies my memories getting rusty.

Were cool right no harm no foul right?

[orpupilofnature57]

20. No prob DanCa, were cool .my fault for being so slow. It's rev 12:2

[DanCa]

21. coolio

Thanks, its going to take a while for me to redigest the passage.
Glad were pals. :D

[FreedomAngel82]

13. Read

numbers 5:27-28. That talks about abortion or see my post above with the verse there. Also Jesus never talked about gay's but he did talk about divorce. I think one of his apostloes (Peter or Paul?) was the one who talked about gay people. And then the story of Sodom being destroyed. People like to use that for their argument, but homosexuality (or in the Bible being a sodomite) wasn't the only reason why God destroyed the city. There was other things going on too.

[DanCa]

17. Thanks freedom angel (nt)

[orpupilofnature57]

18. Thanks

Because I had not a clue where in Revelation i had read it.

[blonndee]

14. Here's an interesting link supporting what you said.

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

[DanCa]

16. Yeah i am still waitting though on revealations.

Thanks blondee and welcome to du

[leesa]

55. There is a judgement in Exodus I believe that definitely indictaes the

fetus is of lesser value. It says if a pregnant woman is killed it is murder, but if her fetus is killed, the fee can be decided by the husband.

[LostinVA]

96. Correct n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

131. And that's the fundamental difference between Jews and Christians.

[Igel]

141. Yes.

Fetus is worth nearly nothing, unless the husband decides and the judge so rules. Kids are worth little, but their value (certainly less than adults) is more. Slaves not so much.

Now *that* would make an interesting legal system today.

[LostinVA]

83. Historically, abortion was not a big deal with the people

in this part of the world (Middle East) and in this time. Unwanted pregnancies were not allowed to continue. It also wasn't a big deal in pre-Colonial and Colonial times in the United States.

[TexasProgresive]

23. The word Easter is only used

in English speaking countries. The more common name of the feast is Pasch or some deriviative which is Passover. The feast of the Resurrection is very close. because of differences in the way Jewish, Orthodox and western Christians determine the date of this lunar feast there are differences in the date from year to year- sometimes it works out.

[realms]

49. Humbly yours

What's not in the bible is the expectation that we'll ever see a agent of higher motivations in our lifetimes. It's probably there, Heroes in the seaweed and all. I'm all for taking away their rallying points.
God damn don't they see the coat of many colors means clothes from a second-hand store.

[orleans]

51. check out this site

http://www.deism.org/frames.htm

[realms]

52. Wonderful

Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it under Wellness>Mind. I think spiritually orientated people are finally seeing the opening.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

104. Actually, concerning the fetus...there is a passage that says if a woman i

is harmed and the fetus is lost, it's something like a fine. Considering that you could have death for a lot less, it doesn't really seem to imply that a fetus is a person.

[CaptainCrunch]

107. Interesting

Espeecially about the snake.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

117. The least you could do is choose a different user name next time

:eyes:

[RetroLounge]

121. LOL!

How obvious can they get?

:rofl:

RL

[orpupilofnature57]

133. Larry David coool!!!

[Shakespeare]

126. The Adam & Eve story was inserted into Genesis later.

If you've looked at any scholarly research on authorship of the bible, you probably already know this (if not, it makes for fascinating reading). You can even find the breaks in the story between the old/new in Genesis, because it's a pretty jarring transition.

As for the snake (and a lot of other biblical mythology), John Milton gets a lot of the credit/blame for that, as most of these are ideas that originated in Paradise Lost.

Fun, fun stuff....

[orpupilofnature57]

132. Like most things in the bible the( serpent) is a figure of a monster or

Monstrosity."Paradise lost" is a product of anglo-sycophancy,not to mention boring as Hell.

[Shakespeare]

137. weeeeellll....that's your opinion

I think Milton would probably double over laughing at the idea of "anglo-sycophancy." He was quite the shit-stirrer in his time (see: his pamphlet "Aereopagitica"). And parts of PL are variously hilarious and touching--if you can get into the rhythm of Milton's poetry, it's quite a good read.