Christians raid voodoo service in Haiti

[muriel_volestrangler]

HAITI'S supreme voodoo leader vowed "war" on evangelicals yesterday after the Christians attacked a ceremony organised by his religion honouring those killed in last month's massive earthquake.
...
Police said a pastor urged followers to attack the vodoo ceremony, resulting in a crowd of people throwing rocks at the voodoo followers.

Rosemond Aristide, police inspector in Cite Soleil, said he had since spoken to the pastor, who agreed to allow voodoo ceremonies to take place there.

However, Mr Aristide could not explain why no arrests were made nor provide further details.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/christians-raid-voodoo-service-in-haiti/story-e6frg6so-1225834510538

A religious war - just what Haiti needs now. :banghead:

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Oh great...just what they need....some more religious colonialism.

[aquart]

2. What flaming brass balls that pastor had.

After what these people have been thru? I'd like to stick pins in the pastor. Forget the doll.

[damntexdem]

9. Religious nutcases who want religious wars don't care who they hurt ...

or when.

[monmouth]

3. Get those GD people out of there...NOW! They're disruptors, kidnappers

and proselthisers...(Spelling?)

[Hekate]

7. proselytizers

you're welcome

[monmouth]

11. Thank you....As a court stenographer when in doubt I go phonetic..LOL..n/t

[bahrbearian]

14. The article didn't say if they local or foreign.

[wallwriter]

4. Shouldn't even call it 'voodoo'

Vodoun is an ancient African folk religion, persecuted by the west because it was a threat to Christianity and its handmaiden, slavery.

[damntexdem]

10. It does little good to say not to call it something, without noting what to call it.

What do it's practitioners call it?

[Still Blue in PDX]

15. Usually vodou.

Even though you weren't asking me.

[niyad]

18. ummm, wallwriter DID say what to call it

[polichick]

5. There are so many whackadoodle Christians these days...

We've got pedophile priests, American Taliban political activists, assorted Evangelical hypocrites, and on and on and on.

Hallelujah!

[Hekate]

6. If any of those are Americans they need to get the hell out of Haiti. NOW.

Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch, they are an embarrassment to all.

If they are locals, I hope the locals can deal with them without violence.

My sympathies to all those who mourn in this terrible scene of devastation, regardless of religion, but in this instance I am siding with the followers of Voudoun.

Hekate

[beam me up scottie]

8. Spiritual predators.

I guess freedom of religion is only a civil right if you're christian.

[FedUpWithIt All]

12. Oh for crying out loud.

:puke:
They threw rocks eh? Way to represent. :eyes:

[sakabatou]

17. My thoughts exactly.

[1776Forever]

13. All in the name of Christianity - Makes me sick - Why do they think this is the way to act?

Sounds like Palin and her protection from Witch Doctor ceremonies! Damn them - let the people choose and make them want to follow you not beat them into doing like you!

Home Videos Channels Shows

Watch this video in a new windowSarah Palin Gets Protection From Witches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl4HIc-yfgM

[struggle4progress]

16. A bit vague on details: who? when? where?

Here's a link to the AP version at WaPo:

Voodooists attacked at ceremony for Haiti victims
By PAISLEY DODDS
The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 23, 2010; 5:23 PM
... ... Cite Soleil where thousands of quake survivors live in tents and depend on food aid ... ... "We were here preparing for prayer when these others came and took over," said Sante Joseph, an Evangelical ... ... More than 150 machete-wielding men attacked a World Food Program convoy Monday on the road between Haiti's second-largest city of Cap-Haitien and Port-au-Prince. There were no injuries but Chilean peacekeepers could not prevent the men from stealing the food ... ... Some Voodoo practitioners have said they've converted to Christianity for fear they will lose out on aid .... .... said Pastor Frank Amedia of the Miami-based Touch Heaven Ministries who has been distributing food in Haiti and proselytizing ... ... "We would give food to the needy in the short term but if they refused to give up Voodoo, I'm not sure we would continue to support them in the long term because we wouldn't want to perpetuate that practice ... ... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022302431.html

I don't think we have a very clear story here. The bottom line is that many Haitians are desperately poor and hungry -- many of them were desperately poor and hungry before the earthquake, and the situation has only gotten worse. People will act in whatever way they think will help them get food. Rumors circulate wildly in such contexts. One should not expect the police to provide much control. Certain cultural features typically govern Western reporting of humanitarian disasters like this: one common theme to expect is the "ignorant savage" narrative, which portrays the victims as superstitious and out-of-control

[laconicsax]

19. And the obfuscation begins

Let's for the sake of argument accept the notion that the Christians were preparing to pray when the Vodou group moved in. Does this really change the fact that the Christian group acted violently? Does it somehow justify their actions? What about any of the other mitigating circumstances?

[struggle4progress]

20. My point is simply that I don't know what happened. I provided a link

with somewhat more detail than the OP -- and the details are sparse indeed. I do not know exactly who, if anyone, acted violently towards whom, for example. I have not made any assertion whatsoever justifying anything at all. I have said that there are no real details in any account I find: to my view, that is not the same as claiming "mitigating circumstances" or attempting to "obfuscate" -- in fact, there are essentially no circumstances provided, and the paucity of the report provides nothing to obfuscate. The following, however, is perfectly clear: there are many desperately impoverished and hungry people in Haiti -- a circumstance which can be expected to produce a breakdown of ordinary civil interactions. If you can provide significantly more information, do feel free to do so: I looked and the best I could find was the uninformative WaPo link

[laconicsax]

21. Here are a number of links:

http://www.google.com/news/i/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&source=mog&cf=all&ncl=dIC4xQ1jWZLwthMsHFBjJmxGO9wIM

All of the relevant articles have something in common--that a group of Christians attacked a Vodou group. If you truly feel that possession of more details will change that, then by all means profess ignorance.

[struggle4progress]

22. First, let's review what your links provide:

The Australian story in the OP is from AFP. The following links from your Google search are versions of the same AFP story "Christians raid voodoo service in Haiti":

Tensions mount in Haiti after voodoo ceremony attack http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Tensions+mount+Haiti+after+voodoo+ceremony+attack/2611848/story.html
Christians raid voodoo service in Haiti http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/christians-raid-voodoo-service-in-haiti/story-e6frg6so-1225834510538
Voodoo leader vows 'war' http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Voodoo+leader+vows/2609284/story.html
Evangelicals Violently Disrupt Haitian Religious Ceremony (firedoglake) http://lafiga.firedoglake.com/2010/02/24/evangelicals-violently-disrupt-haitian-religious-service/
Evangelicals Throw Rocks at Haitian Religious Service (huffingtonpost) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-derrick/evangelicals-throw-rocks_b_476149.html

The last two of these (firedoglake & huffingtonpost) both provide a very short excerpt from the AFP article, then inexplicably cite a Chicago Council on Global Affairs report claiming "uncompromising Western secularism" .. feeds religious extremism. I'm not at all clear how the CCGA report is relevant to the story at hand, and I'm somewhat confused about how "uncompromising Western secularism" could possibly "feed religious extremism"

The following article is attributed to BBC Caribbean Service, but inspection shows it's just a rewrite of the AFP article:

Religious crisis in Haiti http://www.radiojamaica.com/content/view/25348/88/

The following articles are redactions of the Washington Post article I already provided:

Evangelicals break up voodoo ceremony (ap via salt lake tribune) http://www.sltrib.com/Utah%20Local%20News%20-%20Salt%20Lake%20City%20News,%20Sports/ci_14458618
Haitian Evangelicals Attack Voodoo Practitioners (kwtx) http://www.kwtx.com/nationalnews/headlines/85252927.html

The Salt Lake Trib article includes several photos, including one captioned "A man throws stones at people holding a voodoo ceremony from a camp set up for earthquake survivors left homeless, in the Cite Soleil neighborhood of Port-au-Prince, Tuesday, Feb. 23, 2010" which shows a man tossing a stone from behind a clothesline

The AP article in the Salt Lake Trib explicitly cites Washington Post as the source. The very short and vague KWTX article lists no source but inspection shows clearly it's a redaction of the AP article

The remaining link in your list has essentially no related story: it does have a photograph of a man painting on the ground, with an armed man nearby, and the caption Police arrive to control an angry crowd as a man draws a voodoo religious symbol known as "veve" on the ground of a plaza in the Cite Soleil neighborhood of Port-au-Prince, Tuesday, Feb. 23, 2010. Later, the symbol was destroyed by the crowd that did not allow the voodoo ceremony to take place:

Haiti releases 6 orphans bound for homes in US (nwaonline)

[struggle4progress]

26. Now let us go carefully through what we actually know:

We have an AFP story quoting "Max Beauvoir, supreme head of Haitian voodoo." A quick trip to Wikipedia suggests this means Beauvoir represents Konfederasyon Nasyonal Vodou Ayisyen, an organization founded c. 2008 -- so "supreme head of Haitian voodoo" may be somewhat inaccurate. Beauvoir believes (rightly or wrongly I do not know) that "evangelicals" discriminate in providing aid:

... "Evangelicals are in control and they take everything for themselves," Max Beauvoir told London's Telegraph on Monday. The 75-year-old biochemist believes Christians in Haiti are taking food and supplies, and not allowing them to reach needy people outside Port-au-Prince. "They take everything they get to their own people," he said, "and that's a shame" ...
Voodoo 'supreme master': Believers are being discriminated against by Christians in Haiti
BY MICHAEL SHERIDAN
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Monday, February 1st 2010, 1:30 PMhttp://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/02/01/2010-02-01_voodoo_leader_believes_are_being_discriminated_against_by_christians_in_haiti.html#ixzz0gnamES8u

Beauvoir's concerns about discrimination in food aid may have some basis in Western attitudes, to judge from the following quote:

... said Pastor Frank Amedia of the Miami-based Touch Heaven Ministries who has been distributing food in Haiti and proselytizing. "We would give food to the needy in the short term but if they refused to give up Voodoo, I'm not sure we would continue to support them in the long term ...
Voodooists attacked at ceremony for Haiti victims
By PAISLEY DODDS
The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 23, 2010; 5:23 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022302431.html

Of course, if a handful of nitwits like Amedia blabber in such fashion in a context of desperate poverty and food insecurity, wild rumors about general prerequisites for obtaining food aid are certain to circulate

It is, nevertheless, entirely unclear whether Beauvoir has any first-hand knowledge of the events under discussion here, but the Montreal Gazette version of the AFP story appears to attribute the attack claim to Beauvoir:

... Beauvoir claimed hundreds of Protestant evangelicals along with other people they hired attacked the ceremony, causing a number of injuries ..
Voodoo leader vows 'war'
AFP FEBRUARY 25, 2010
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Voodoo+leader+vows/2609284/story.html#ixzz0gnVb1RXg

We further have unnamed police officials claiming an unnamed pastor encouraged the attack:

... Police said a pastor urged followers to attack the Cite Soleil ceremony. Rosemond Aristide, a police inspector .. said he had .. spoken with the pastor ... But he would not .. provide further details ...
Christians raid voodoo service in Haiti
From: AFP February 26, 2010 12:00AM
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/christians-raid-voodoo-service-in-haiti/story-e6frg6so-1225834510538

It is also entirely unclear whether Rosemond Aristide has any first-hand knowledge here: we seem to have an accusation by nameless persons against a nameless person of unknown denominational affiliation, without much any further information. Beyond this, we have one named person quoted on the events:

... "We were here preparing for prayer when these others came and took over," said Sante Joseph, an evangelical ...
Evangelicals break up voodoo ceremony
Haiti » Practitioners were trying to conjure spirits, guide lost souls.
The Associated Press
Updated: 02/23/2010 09:34:19 PM MST
http://www.sltrib.com/Utah%20Local%20News%20-%20Salt%20Lake%20City%20News,%20Sports/ci_14458618

This seems somewhat inconsistent with Beauvoir's account of hired thugs, though it could be consistent with the anonymous police account. My best guess would be the BBC Caribbean Service is citing the same person in the Radio Jamaica account, which appears to me to bean obvious redaction from the AFP story, since it largely has the same elements:

... One of the voodooists said they were preparing for prayer when they attack was launched ...
Religious crisis in Haiti
Thursday, 25 February 2010
http://www.radiojamaica.com/content/view/25348/88/

As this possible simultaneous identification of one-and-the-same person as "evangelical" and "voodooist" suggests, distinguishing "voodooist" from "evangelical" in Haiti may be a difficult task, especially as many Haitians are believed to follow several religions simultaneously:

... About half of Haiti's population is believed to practice voodoo in some form, though many are thought to also follow other religious beliefs at the same time ...
Tensions mount in Haiti after voodoo ceremony attack
By M.J. Smith, Agence France-PresseFebruary 25, 2010
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Tensions+mount+Haiti+after+voodoo+ceremony+attack/2611848/story.html#ixzz0gngwQRLI

... Slaves forced to practice Catholicism remained loyal to their African spirits in secret by adopting Catholic saints to coincide with African spirits, and today many Haitians consider themselves followers of both religions ...
Voodooists attacked at ceremony for Haiti victims
By PAISLEY DODDS
The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 23, 2010; 5:23 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022302431.html

Beyond this, I think we have only the photographic evidence. At the NWAonline website, there is a photo of a man painting on the ground in a covered pavilion with an armed policeman nearby. At the Salt Lake Tribune website, we have pictures identified as "Voodoo followers stand against a wall as stones are thrown at them," "Voodoo followers sit as a crowd screams at them," "A man throws stones at people holding a voodoo ceremony from a camp set up for earthquake survivors left homeless," and a crowd destroying "objects .. to be used in a voodoo ceremony"

So -- it is clear that a group of people came into a refugee camp and were chased out. The question under discussion is whether this is about religion or whether it is about something altogether different. My own guess might be that the real issue here is associated with food insecurity: rumors that food aid is unequally distributed according to religion may be rampant, and they may have some origins in paternalist attitudes from some relief workers; such rumors would automatically create serious tensions, and mob reactions might well result if one group of people "invaded" another group's "home territory." That we are indeed talking about "home territory" is quite clear from the one photograph of a young man behind a makeshift tent tossing a stone from behind a clothesline: the context is rather obviously that of domicile

[laconicsax]

27. Of course you would see religion as being completely absent.

You're like a broken record. Someone posts an article about one religious group attacking another and you jump in saying that religion played no part--that other factors were clearly at play. Along with your claims, you post several articles to provide 'context' and completely miss that none of them support your hunch that religion played no role.

Let me ask you: Why do all of the stories describe this event as a group of Christians antagonizing a Vodou group? Why do most of the stories use the verb "attack" to describe the Christian group's actions and several state that the Christian group threw stones at the Vodou prayer service?

Could it be that these things are a rough description of an actual occurrence--that a group of Christians violently broke up a Vodou gathering, or do you perhaps prefer to feign ignorance on the grounds that individuals aren't named and credentials aren't verified?

What do you have to say to the basic allegation that a Christian group acted violently toward a Vodou group?

[darkstar3]

28. +1 n/t

[struggle4progress]

29. I say: facts first, analysis second. Let us start with some general facts. (1) The lines

between various religious groups in Haiti are often so blurred, that a Haitian punching him/herself in the face could frequently be portrayed a fight between a "Christian" and a "voodooist." The traditional blurring of religious identity in Haiti means one should be especially careful about analyses based on religious identity there. (2) Food insecurity is a serious matter in Haiti: without difficulty, for example, you can find photos of the "mud cookies" (made of dirt and shortening) that a number of people traditionally eat. The food insecurity problem in Haiti means that there are major material sources of social tension that must be considered when attempting to understand social events there

When one tries to get more specific here, unfortunately, facts are largely lacking. What, exactly, does the claim Christians attacked Vodou followers mean, for example? Do we know the rock-throwing was associated with members of a particular church -- and (if so) what church and what denomination? What is the actual nature of the tent city under discussion? Is it associated with a particular food distribution point -- and (if so) who actually controls the food distribution there? For example, does a church group control food distribution there? Where exactly are the attackers and the attacked living? Are they all from this one tent city or are some of them from elsewhere? That last question could be quite important in parsing events, since it could relate to the overarching source of social tensions, which is food insecurity

It does not seem to me unreasonable to avoid drawing conclusions until one knows such basic details. The exact significance of the story depending on the actual facts. The story means one thing if a "pastor" encouraged some members of his church who were residents of the tent city to throw rocks at Vodou followers who were also residents of the tent city; it may signify something quite different if there is local food distribution associated with the tent city, with the attackers being local residents of the tent city and with the attacked being residents of a different neighborhood a considerable distance away. The meaning of the story would also vary according to whether or not local food distribution is handled by an aggressively proselytizing foreign religion group

[laconicsax]

30. So you don't accept anything without clear facts and the whole story?

I'd hate to find out that you accept the existence of anyone or anything based primarily on the writings of anonymous authors making unsourced claims.

[Marr]

31. Haha-- well put. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

23. When the late Pope JPII visited Cuba, all he did was bitch about Santeria

Apparently the Pope disliked the Cuban government for allowing non-Christian faiths to be practiced in the open.

I saw the video of those Xtian assholes, whose GAWD did not save them from the earthquake, attack the voodoo practitioners. Pathetic!

[RagAss]

24. It's all voodoo to me.

[jemelanson]

25. It is just Christians doing what Christians do and have done

their entire history, covert others by the point of a sword, gun, or by burning them at the stake. Convert or we will take away your children, forbid the use of your native language and wipe out what ever culture and history you have had to this point. This was the actions of the Hebrew Children toward the cultures it encountered. Wiped them out, killed them all, except for maybe a few girls they took for wives or slaves, if you do not believe me, read your bibles, it is all there. The Christians when they got control of the Roman Empire aa the preferred religion, did it to anyone who refused to convert, they did it to the cultures of Europe, the South Pacific, Africa, Asia, to the native cultures of North and South America. Convert or Die. They are just repeating a practice that has served them well for some 2000 years. They have done it without ever being called on it so why should they stop now. That is what Christians do when they get the chance. Now I will admit the less radical of them have done some good. However when faced with a native culture they revert to the worst of their history. The younger religion from the same roots Islam is no better. They all have the same fatal flaw. Convert to their way or die, their God tells them this is the way it is to be and that all evil in this world was caused by woman so do not trust woman.