The Rapture

[abluelady]

First of all I was not raised a Christian, so please bear with me.

1. Does mainstream Christianity believe in the rapture or is it just the zealots/extremists?

2. It is my understanding that Jesus will return and all Christians will go to heaven. Will life on earth be heaven for these believers?

3. Will the non-believers die and go to hell?

4. Can you become a believer and be in heaven once Jesus gets here?

Thank you for your patience.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. "The Rapure" does not exist in traditional Christian doctrine.

It appeared in the 19th century and only the wack job fringe of evangelical Christians really take it seriously.

[abluelady]

11. Thanks

How do these nutjobs get so much attention?

[AJbawe1]

43. The Rapture Does exist in traditional Christian Doctrine

In traditional Christianity the Rapture does exist although it is not dubbed the "Rapture" in the Bible. The main reason for the belief in the Rapture is multiple references to the second coming of Christ. The Rapture specifically refers to when the first angel blows his trumpet and all the current Christ-Followers will be taken up into Heaven. After this the earth will go through a 7 year tribulation period in which everyone will be given a second chance. But after the 7 years anyone who has not believed will go to hell.

[av8rdave]

2. I wasn't raised a Christian either, but have spent some time around some, so I'll try

1. My impression is that it's not just the nutjobs, though I don't think all Christians believe it.

2. That's a tough one. I think those raptured get taken into some kind of "time out" while the %$#@ hits the fan, then they come back with Jesus for 1000 years of his peaceful rule (nobody has been able to tell me what happens after the 1000 years is up).

3. Yes, although just because you miss the rapture doesn't mean you can't still get to heaven. It just means you get to ride out the ^%$#storm, and it will be difficult to remain faithful during that time.

4. I think so.

I'm no expert, so take all this for what it's worth (very little).

[abluelady]

12. Thanks

I want to ask some of my mainstream Christian friends these questions, but didn't want to insult them if it was "written in stone."

[saltpoint]

3. The Rapture is kind of a Mega Super Bowl for fundamentalist nutbags who

believe their "suffering" in a decidedly non-Christian world will be acknowledged and their "goodness" validated by no less than Christ himself, who will descend amid a chorus of singing angels in golden-lit clouds to bless his flock.

On that day, he will simultaneously flip a switch which will consign non-believers and folks of other religious traditions to eternal damnation.

All in all, a pretty memorable afternoon on the water planet.

[cliffordu]

6. Yep. Memorable indeed.

:rofl:

[saltpoint]

7. Hi, cliffordu.

And good morning!

:hi:

[cliffordu]

20. Yo!!!! Howya been????

Long time no see....

:hi:

[saltpoint]

22. Same here -- hope you are thriving and that there are early

spring days just ahead.

I'm in the mood for some daffodils, dammit.

The indicators this morning suggest that the president's health care legislation may be passed. It could be a very good week for Barack Obama.

[cliffordu]

24. I hope it's a good week for all of us.

[left coaster]

8. "..and their "goodness" validated by no less than Christ himself"

If only mommy had breast fed them, or daddy had told them that he was proud of them when they were growing up.. these believers in The Rapture might not be so desperate for this kind of far-fetched validation..

[saltpoint]

9. Hi, left coaster. Yes -- there is something congenitally desperate about

people who want special treatment from their Personal Savior while all the rest of us meanies are tossed into hellfire forever.

[left coaster]

16. Hello Saltpoint! :)

Yeah, even if I believed in all of that spirit in the sky stuff, it would still be very narcissistic of me, or anyone, to expect such preferential treatment from the big cheese.

[mrcheerful]

4. The rapture was invented some time after the War between the states by an

English guy who cherry picked bible passages believing that their was a secret code in the bible. In merry old England his beliefs were laughed at so he came to the US and found followers in the southern Baptist's. Most other major christian sects do not have rapture beliefs, some have even went so far as throwing revelations out of their bibles because most saw it as confusing nonsense.

[Ozymanithrax]

5. The doctrine of rapture was put together by a man named John Darby

in the 1830's. There was no widespread belief in it before his time, though the belief in the return of Christ is doctrine in all branches that I know of going back to very early int he Church. The Catholic Church does not, so far as I understand, accept Mr. Darby's ideas.

Along with the rapture, the belief that the bible is literally true is part of conservative Churches in the U.S.A. Fundamentalists do not need to interpret scripture. If it says it, it happened, exactly that way.

We should also note that there Judas Iscariot died two different ways. This doesn't seem to disprove that the bible is literally true to fundamentalists. They have all kinds of ways to explain the apparant contradiction in the idea of a literal bible.

[mrcheerful]

13. Proof of something thats mainly a myth told for generations until written

then translated and rewritten then interpreted to be written again to fit the time period's beliefs is kind of hard to do. Thats where faith enters the picture and once you have faith nothing needs proven every silly little thing becomes fact and undeniable truth. I remember back in the 60's when religion started trying to explain fossil evidence, I got branded as a heretic because I asked the sunday school teacher that by not including dinosaurs wasn't Noah going against what god told him to do? By leaving dinosaurs off the Ark he disobeyed gods command that all animals be gathered and put on the Ark.

[kdsimantel]

10. The Rapture Crap

I was raised agnostic/atheist but in 1976 when I was 18 I got
together with my first husband who believed all the rapture
crap and I became a Christian until a couple years ago... (I
was always progressive/liberal)..I can answer most of these
questions...

1. Most mainstream Christians (Catholics, Lutherans,
Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians..) do not believe in
the rapture. (Baptists, Four Square Gospels, etc. do) I don't
even think LDS or SDA believe in the rapture

2. During the Tribulation (the 7 year period between the
Rapture and the 2nd coming) the world will be ruled by the
Anti-Christ (a political leader) and the False Prophet (a
religious leader ie liberal Christian leader or Muslim
perhaps... if you weren't raptured 
life will literally be hell on Earth if you weren't raptured 

3. During the Tribulation those who refuse to get the mark of
the Beast and become born again can join the believers in
heaven after the tribulation is over (the Mark of the Beast
may be a bar code perhaps embedded into your right hand or
your forehead allowing you to buy, sell, work if you don't get
the Mark you are a wanted person by the authorities if you do
get the Mark you are accepting allegiance to Satan) 

4. Yes

[abluelady]

14. Good Information

Do Jews believe in the Rapture?

[sakabatou]

37. No, absolutely not

People when they die are judged by God whether they will enter heaven or wander around never being able to go in. However, when the moshiach (messiah) comes, the dead will rise up from and be judged likewise. The judgment, however, is done not through faith but by work.

[abluelady]

38. Can Jesus be the messiah (moshiach) on his second round? eom

[sakabatou]

40. No.

Jesus has not and cannot be the moshiach. The moshiach would be fully human and would never be resurrected. He would also not be a demi-god. He would also not try to tear down the laws.

[saltpoint]

15. As to the Anti-Christ, I strongly feel that Pat Boone might be the guy

we're looking for.

It's just a hunch, of course.

[Angry Dragon]

18. The catholic church may be the anti-christ

[saltpoint]

19. Maybe, but I think the case for Pat Boone is more compelling.

[cliffordu]

21. Ya got me sold.

[saltpoint]

26. -- --

:hi:

[ironbark]

41. Am old enough to remember

the ever changing list of contenders for Antichrist.

In evangelical literature or on Christian radio I have heard proposed-

Pope/Catholic Church, Soviet Union, Michael Jackson, The United Nations, Prince Charles or young Harry …the IMF or anyone advocating globalization/one world (Baha’is) are in the crosshairs at the moment.

First I’ve heard Pat Boone was a contender….but hell….why not? ;-)

[mrcheerful]

17. Wasn't 76 also the year fundies started worrying about the bar codes and the super computer

that would start the 7 year period? The belief at the time was the super computer was actually the beast the bible talked about. Or was that just one of those fringe beliefs going around in certain area's of the country? I do remember the first mega church going up in my area, it was a big pole barn type building and only had 50 or 60 members, the building could hold up to 600 but because it was located out in the sticks they never got the following they expected.

[AlecBGreen]

23. 1977 was supposed to be a 'significant' event

according to some. The reggae band Culture captured it when they wrote "Two Seven's Clash"

per wikipedia:

Two Sevens Clash is the debut album by roots reggae band Culture, recorded with producer Joe Gibbs at his own Joe Gibbs Recording Studio in Kingston in 1976, and released on Gibbs' eponymous label in 1977 (see 1977 in music). The album's title is a reference to the date of July 7, 1977.

Hill said "Two Sevens Clash," Culture's most influential record, was based on a prediction by Marcus Garvey, who said there would be chaos on July 7, 1977, when the "sevens" met. With its apocalyptic message, the song created a stir in his Caribbean homeland and many Jamaican businesses and schools shuttered their doors for the day. <1><2>

The liner notes of the album read: "One day Joseph Hill had a vision, while riding a bus, of 1977 as a year of judgment -- when two sevens clash -- when past injustices would be avenged. Lyrics and melodies came into his head as he rode and thus was born the song "Two Sevens Clash" which became a massive hit in reggae circles both in Jamaica and abroad.

The prophecies noted by the lyrics so profoundly captured the imagination of the people that on July 7, 1977 - the day when sevens fully clashed (seventh day, seventh month, seventy-seventh year) a hush descended on Kingston; many people did not go outdoors, shops closed, an air of foreboding and expectation filled the city."

Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash
Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash

My good old prophet Marcus Garvey prophesize, say:
"St. Jago de la Vega and Kingston is gonna read" (?)
And I can see with mine own eyes
It's only a housing scheme that divide

Wat a liiv an bambaie - it dread
When the two sevens clash
Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash

Look up a cotton tree out by Ferry police station
How beautiful it used to be
And it has been destroyed by lightning,
Earthquake and thunder, I say, what ?

Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash - it dread
Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash

I take a ride sometimes
On Penn Overland and Bronx
And sometimes I ride on bus X-82, say what?

Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash
Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash

Marcus Garvey was inside of Spanish Town district Prison
And when they were about to take him out
He prophecied and said:
"As I have passed through this gate
No other prisoner shall enter and get through"
And so it is until now
The gate has been locked, so what?

Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash - it dread
Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash - it bitter, bitter, bitter
Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash - a man a go feel it
Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash - you better do right

[Igel]

25. Your question is harder to answer than most would admit.

The problem is in the definition of "the rapture"?

A lot of people have defined it in a very precise way that doesn't actually fit with usage. They're essentially in the same camp that say "decimate" means "to reduce by 1/10th" so "the German Army was decimated" means 90% of it still was up and running. Language changes as speakers change it. After all, a language only exists in the minds of its speakers.

That said:

1. Mainstream Xianity doesn't use the term. They accept elements of what a lot of churches would call "the rapture." They don't accept all of them. Then again, it's not the case that "a lot of churches" have exactly the same understanding of it--so in a case or two mainstream Xianity *does* accept what some churches call "the rapture."

People can argue that what a given denomination says. They can't validly argue that because a given denomination has the belief that all such denominations agree in every detail. Embrace diversity and nuance.

2. That's a common understanding: The rapture isn't so much Jesus' return but the removing of the faithful from society so that God's vengeance can be wrought on earth and the earth brought to heel for the return of the king. Oddly, a lot of mainstream Xian denominations' problem with the rapture isn't the "going to heaven" part but the "Jesus' return" part--even though we have in the Nicene Creed that a lot of those denominations official accept "He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead." The timing is a problem--pre- vs post-millennial. But amillennialist churches really have to do a kludge to make sense of that. (It's not what necessary what a denomination's documents say, it's at least how the preachers interpret those documents, and you can't exclude what the masses actually believe. Keep that in mind for discussions of every Xian denomination, as well as Islam and other creeds.)

Not everybody does the "take the believers to heaven" part. Most do.

3. No. Many will. Not all. Probably most, depending on the group's exegesis. But those alive will, according to most, be brought to repentance and accept Jesus. This is the "Jesus is king" part of the narrative, not the "Jesus as suffering servant" part.

4. This is where millennial doctrines come into play in a serious way. Ultimately most Xian groups that accept the Nicene Creed at face value would say that Jesus returns and people continue to live under his rule. They don't need to believe, just accommodate. If you believe in going to heaven after you die (as most believe) then sure--you accept Jesus at the time and you go to heaven when you die.

If you don't believe in a literal return, or if you're post-millennial, then the entire "tribulation" gets a bit wobblier. Some still have it, but at the end the Xians tend to dominant and take control. Note that Dominionists (as they define themselves, their core beliefs--not every group that has adopted the name or been assigned the name by outsiders) are post-millennial. I don't believe they originally espoused a rapture doctrine.

Clear? No? It's because you're not being specific in your definitions, so you have to explain four answers for a dozen different variations on "the rapture". It's like asking about HCR reform on 2/28: Which group's or chamber's version, Obama's version? Do you include the proposed amendments? It's hard to have a coherent conversation when the topic is poorly defined.

[darkstar3]

27. I'll tell you what I was taught:

1. No, not hardly. As mentioned in several places upthread, there are many denominations that do not accept the rapture as it is preached in its entirety.

2. Jesus doesn't technically return at the time of the rapture. Jesus "calls home his disciples", who will disappear from this worldly plane in the blink of an eye, to arrive in heaven where they will spend the rest of eternity. This is their reward for being faithful, as their rapture, or rescue from this lowly place, happens right before everything gets very nasty.

3. No. The non-believers will continue to inhabit this earth, but they might think they're in hell. The seven years of the Tribulation will supposedly be awful. The earth itself will attempt to shake us off like a bad case of fleas, and after the Anti-Christ rises to power, war and suffering will break out all over the earth. The anti-christ will crush all opposition under his heel in order to form his army, and and as he cements his power he will mark his faithful followers with the "mark of the beast" so that only they will receive the accoutrements of life, while those who refuse to follow and take the mark will suffer greatly, and possibly die before the Tribulation is over. These resistors will make it to heaven.

4. No. Since Jesus doesn't actually return for the rapture, "once Jesus gets here" refers to the day of Armageddon. After 7 years of Tribulation, Jesus actually does return with a host of angels at his back, charging the field at Meggido where, supposedly, the Anti-Christ will have gathered his armies to fight this last battle. With the help of all the angels we've never really heard about, and a very magical trumpet, Jesus will cast all of the Anti-Christ's followers, as well the Anti-Christ's 7 headed beast, and the Anti-Christ himself, into "the pit", where they will join their master in being locked away from all of God's good creation for eternity. The only people left on the planet at that time will be the believers, and after quelling volcanoes and oceans and earthquakes, Jesus will rule over this "new Earth". How long is actually the question nobody could answer for me. The stories of the rapture, taken as piecemeal interpretations of verses from Revelation, do actually mention a 1000 year rule, as opposed to eternity, but I was told 2 different stories about that:
First, The 1000 year rule was literal, and after 1000 years Jesus would take everyone and abandon the earth, retiring to heaven with all of his faithful followers.
Second, The 1000 year rule was simply "a long, long time, and it really just means eternity."

I'm curious why you care, since it's all batshit crazy re-interpretations of an acid trip, but if you REALLY want to learn about what Evangelical nutjobs believe the rapture will be, and the Tribulation itself, there is no better book for you to read than Left Behind, and its sequels. LaHaye writes the characters and the fiction, and Jenkins keeps ALL of the biblical references in line with what he considers to be the true interpretation of Revelation, which he has studied for much of his life. You really won't find another text that demonstrates in plain terms exactly what these whackos believe will happen sometime before they die.

[abluelady]

29. One Reason I Was Asking

A Jewish friend of mine who is a Republican is so because she feels the Republicans care more for Israel than the Dems. We got to talking about the reason so many Christians are pro-Israel--the Rapture. I then asked her where do Jews play a part in the Rapture. She said to me that since the Jews are waiting for their Messiah, Jesus (in his second coming) might be that Messiah. I was looking for "facts" to talk to her about. Thanks.

[darkstar3]

30. There are a lot of references to the Jews in the rapture crap.

There's the supposed fact that 144,000 Jews will be saved and afforded a special place in heaven. There's the prediction that, before the ethereal battle at Meggido, the nation of Israel will vanquish all of her foes. Not to mention a lot of other predictions that no one has really sussed out yet. Not that it matters. John was high as a kite when he wrote that book.

[laconicsax]

28. You need to define 'mainstream.'

It means different things to different groups of Christians. Each group sees itself as mainstream.

Of course, when you look at the actual numbers, you wind up seeing that in the US, Christians are about 75% of the population and evangelicals are a little over half of that. It would seem that the 'sensible' moderates are actually the minority making the crazy end-times nonsense the de facto mainstream belief.

As to the details of what these beliefs entail, it's all bullshit. Jesus probably never actually existed as anything more than an allegorical character invented to advance a narrative. Even if he did exist, his prophecies were meant to come true within the lifetime of his disciples. They're all dead and none of them came true (except) for the one about families being divided because of him.

None of it is going to happen.

[abluelady]

31. How About This Definition

Mainstream Christians = Democratic Christians

[laconicsax]

33. Sure. You may want to use 'moderate' or 'progressive' instead of mainstream to avoid confusion.

It's an inescapable fact that Evangelicals represent around 40% of the total US population. Since that's more than half the number of people who self-identify as Christian, Evangelical Christianity is the majority religion in the US. It's pretty hard to accurately define 'mainstream' as representing a minority opinion.

[abluelady]

36. Thanks.

My interpretation of mainstream is widely accepted. I keep forgetting that doesn't mean the majority.

[onager]

32. Also need to define if you mean premillenial, postmillenial, amillenial, dispensational, etc. etc.

I'm just a st00pid Fundamentalist Atheist, so I turned to the experts on this fairy tale bit o' theology.

This should get you started. Have fun!

Premillennialism in Christian end-times theology is the belief that Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign, at his second coming.

The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Christ’s physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.

It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as postmillennialism or amillennialism, which view the millennial rule as occurring either before the second coming, or as being figurative and non-temporal.

Premillennialism is largely based upon a literal interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 in the New Testament which describes Christ’s coming to the earth and subsequent reign at the end of an apocalyptic period of tribulation. It views this future age as a time of fulfillment for the prophetic hope of God’s people as given in the Old Testament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premillennialism

[laconicsax]

34. It's all end-times death cult nonsense to me.

[skepticscott]

35. I'm looking forward to it, actually

When all of the fundy nutjobs get Raptured up to heaven, their clothes won't go with them, so all of us who are Left Behind get to go through their pockets for loose change.

And for the fundies who are worried about what will happen to their pets after they're whisked away, animal-loving atheists have already stepped up to take care of things...for a price:

http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/

[Deep13]

39. My understanding:

"1. Does mainstream Christianity believe in the rapture or is it just the zealots/extremists?"

It's just certain Evangelicals.

"2. It is my understanding that Jesus will return and all Christians will go to heaven. Will life on earth be heaven for these believers?"

The standard line is that on the last day, Christians will be bodily resurrected and live forever. I'm not clear whether that will be on Earth or in heaven. Despite this, most believe that their spirits will go to heaven when they die and stay there forever.

"3. Will the non-believers die and go to hell?"

Nonbelievers stay dead. Those who have rejected Christ go to hell.

"4. Can you become a believer and be in heaven once Jesus gets here?"

My understanding is that if you wait for indisputable proof, it is too late.

[iris27]

42. Hmm...I thought I had replied to this thread but I don't see a reply, so let's try again.

1. Rapture is mostly the province of the less staid denominations of Christianity - so your southern Baptists, Pentacostals, Assembly of God rather than your Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians. Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (the church I grew up in) teaches that the book of Revelations was a prophecy to John that was fulfilled by the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and that it does not refer to Jesus' second coming. They teach that the end of the world and Jesus' second coming will pretty much be an instantaneous event and that Judgement Day happens right then for everyone on the planet (referencing verses in the Gospels about "you know not the day or the hour", "it will come like a thief in the night", "separating the sheep from the goats/wheat from the chaff", and "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers").

2. Under rapture doctrine, these Christians will be in sky-heaven from the time the rapture happens until Jesus returns, at which time they come back to help set up "heaven on earth for 1000 years" with him.

3. Non-believers continue to live and die as normal in the intervening 7 years between the Rapture and Jesus' return, the time called the Tribulation. Though apparently life will get crazy and more dangerous/violent during this time. Non-believers will always go to hell when they die, regardless of whether this happens before or after the Rapture.

4. Nope, too late at that point. "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Plus, that'd be kinda unfair to all the poor saps who died not believing BEFORE Jesus came back, wouldn't it? (This is also believed by the more stoic denominations who believe in hell...once Jesus comes back, everyone who didn't already believe is screwed.)