What it's Like to be an Atheist (if anyone really cares)

[beam me up scottie]

Seems like a good time to repost this classic From DarkSyde's diary at http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/11/15/12016/649">DailyKos:

What it's Like to be an Atheist
by DarkSyde
Mon Nov 14, 2005 at 10:20:16 PM PDT

A few folks wanna know why I'm an atheist. I'm not planning on sugar coating this with any platitudes about how religion helps some folks cope with the brutal facts of life they never asked for and don't deserve; it does do that and it does lots of useful things. But that's not what this is about.


If you don't want to know, stop reading ... now. I mean it, stop reading this right now. If you've recently lost someone or are about to lose someone and religion is the one thread you're hanging onto to keep from going bonkers, don't read this; If you need to feel that humans have some kind of special place in the universe and without that special dispensation, it's all 'for nothing', don't read this; If you're easily offended and/or intolerant, don't read this. Normally I'd be happy to induldge all that, but in this one singular case I'm not going to be terribly empathetic about people complaining.

***

What it feels like to be an Atheist

I've always been an atheist, I know nothing else. From my earliest memory of considering the question, I'm talking maybe age three or four, I was skeptical as hell. The God stories just didn't add up. I'm amazed everyday of my life that everyone isn't an atheist like me. But they're not, I have no idea why that is, but it is reality. And based on many questions over the years it sounds possibly hard for someone who is not one to understand it. So follow me for a bit if you can. And I'll try to describe the world as seen through atheist eyes.

Imagine that you live in a world where 90% of the people around you sincerely believe in something that appears to you to be downright whacky, if perhaps relatively pleasant on the surface in many respects. Say they believe in Santa Claus; beard, the big red suit, the flying reindeer, the sled loaded with a billion gifts, the North Pole Workshop, Mrs. Claus and the elves; all of it.

But in this fantasy world, they're not content merely to believe in Santa Claus, they want you to publicly agree all the time that you also believe in Santa, in their specific version of same, and they pressure everyone else in numerous ways to pretend that they're not strange or childish for believing in this. They don't just limit it at that even, they insist everyone kiss their ass about their Santa belief every damn day of their lives and if you don't humor them at the drop of hat under any circumstances, you're being disrespectful, you're out of line. No matter how much you humor them, they always demand more.

Imagine, seriously imagine for a moment now, that these people, the vast majority of the electorate, vote for politicians based in large part on what they think Santa wants, campaign speeches all end with "Be good or Santa won't come to visit". And most of these voters won't even consider voting for someone who doesn't believe in Santa Claus and his factory at the North Pole. Yet they routinely congratulate themselves as belonging to the most graciously tolerant and open minded people in all of history.


More, much much more http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/11/15/12016/649">here:

[opihimoimoi]

1. To be a FREE THINKER goes back many years....for me...its being FREE of DOGMA

[beam me up scottie]

2. :)

It's easier now but still risky, many people distrust free thinkers.

[opihimoimoi]

3. There is a FUTURIST Org out there...many FTers....

[beam me up scottie]

4. At this point, I'd settle for a secular government.

And an educated secular population.

[opihimoimoi]

7. Its a dream now but a possibility and an opportunity soon....

[jgraz]

5. Ah, another dogmatic atheist who hates religion and mocks anyone who disagrees

:sarcasm:

Just thought we'd get that response out of the way early. :evilgrin:

[eridani]

6. Yes, I know. Sarcasm

I saw nothing of the sort in the OP, though, just a general sense of bewilderment about why other people are so different.

[jgraz]

32. I don't think he was bewildered at all

He was just pointing out the absurdity of these beliefs and suggesting that we shouldn't be so deferential to those who ascribe to them.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Thanks, we all know it's coming...

Assume the position. :spank:

[lamp_shade]

8. Why do atheists keep trying to bring their atheism front and center on this board?

What's with that? I rarely if ever see posts here from Christian, Jewish, Muslim (etc) DUers proclaiming their religious beliefs. So you're an atheist... I respect your beliefs but so what? Who cares? I see no need to share.

[ironbark]

9. I have it on good, no, absolute authority that there are only atheists here

I myself thought I was an agnostic...but I was mistaken.

There are no agnostics...only atheists.

Resistance is futile...all will be assimilated.

[dmallind]

12. You can be both quite easily

Just different aspects. If you don't have any god beliefs you're an atheist. We know what atheist means from simple logic and etymology. It means lacking god beliefs or theism. You can lack them because you just don't believe (weak atheism) or you can lack them becauise you think gods are impossible (strong atheism), but if there is an absence of theism there is a(GK without)theism. It's an ontological term.

If you don't believe we can ever really know the answer, especially by mystically revealed certainty, then you're an agnostic. We know what agnsotic means because we know who invented the word and he left plenty of writings about what he meant. It's an epistemological term.

It's perfectly possible to either be an atheistic agnostic or a theistic agnostic

The only thing that ISN'T possible (although frequently used in sloppy modern parlance) is to wedge a third position in between believing and not believing. I have never found anybody who can define what lies between belief and no belief. Some belief or shaky belief is still belief. Not caring doesn't refer to belief. Being polite about it doesn't concern belief. Having an open mind just means your beliefs can change, not what they are. What IS the third option on a specifically belief-based continuum?

[ironbark]

18. I would have thought so…but unfortunately-

I am instructed-

"ALL agnostics are atheists by definition"

“If you believe in one or more you are a theist. If you don't, what else can you possibly be but an atheist? There really is no middle ground.”

I can't possibly be anything other than an atheist.

Agnosticism is not a choice.

I'm getting used to it...time before this I had to be a theist and then a literalist theist.

;-)

[darkstar3]

21. You can keep mocking me in multiple threads all you like,

but it doesn't change the fact that here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x239559#239895
you admitted to lacking belief. As I told you before, atheism is about belief while agnosticism is about knowledge. It is entirely possible for you to, like iris27 said in another thread, be an "agnostic atheist." Here's how: "I can't possibly know whether or not a god-like creature exists, but as it stands now, I lack faith in one."

Of course, you're caught up in your label game and will always reject the word atheist when applied to you because you personally have heaped scorn and ridicule on the position. I can't help you there...that's something you'll have to come to terms with yourself.

[ironbark]

27. Hadn’t even mentioned you at all

If anything was being mocked it was the notions-

"ALL agnostics are atheists by definition"
+
“If you believe in one or more you are a theist. If you don't, what else can you possibly be but an atheist? There really is no middle ground.”

“but it doesn't change the fact that here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
you admitted to lacking belief.”

Oh I do hope folk will take the time to click the link to see my “admitting” to-
Satanism, Hard Atheism, Agnostic Atheism, Agnostic Theism and drunken dog patting Theism.

Do you think I need to mock you at this point? ;-)

“Of course, you're caught up in your label game and will always reject the word atheist when applied to you…”

My label game is that >I< get to choose my own pov/label…and I choose Agnosticism

“… because you personally have heaped scorn and ridicule on the position.”

That’s an outright lie Darkstar. I have heaped no scorn regarding the position of Atheism.
The criticisms I have made have been specific and specified regarding the >behaviour< of Atheists…
fabrication and misrepresentation of the others pov being a principal concern.

Thank you for making my case ;-)

[darkstar3]

28. No, you just quoted me directly.

Uncredited, I might add. Why, I wonder? Could it be because bringing that conversation here into a separate thread was a violation of the board rules? :think:

Anyway, aside from that bit of hair-splitting stupidity, I find it hilarious that you think you get to choose all the labels applied to you. Did I choose the label applied to my race? Did I choose the one applied to my sex? Did I choose the one applied to my sexual orientation? Did I choose the one applied to my eye/hair color? Did I choose the one applied to my job? Did I choose the one...

You need to understand that labels are not used to DEFINE and RESTRICT what you are, they are used to DESCRIBE what you are. For example, when I say "I am a liberal", that doesn't mean that I am restricted to supporting only liberal causes, nor does it mean I have to support ALL liberal causes. What it does mean is that the word "liberal" is the closest description in the English language to my political views.

As for your criticisms, they have not been nearly as specific as you claim. You have employed many broad brushes in your failed attempts to distance yourself from the label of "atheist", or have you forgotten the various posts where you told us how you really feel?

[ironbark]

29. No, at 9am Monday morning I "really feel" like a Satanist

How could I forget, it's a theist kind of feeling ;-)

(Don't like them raw though ;-)

[dmallind]

26. That is true, but does not stop you being agnostic!

You can't be anything but an atheist IF you don't believe in any gods. You can of course be a theist if you DO believe in one or more gods.

But that does absolutely squat to prevent you from also taking the position that we will never really know the answer does it?

In fact I am personally 100% atheistic (weak or implicit - I have no belief in any gods at all, but do NOT take the position that gods are impossible) and 100% agnostic (we can never know fior sure unless a god shows up and subjects themselves to a battery of tests).

The confusion - and very common it is - comes from the idea, driven by modern sloppy vernacular, that atheist and agnostic are answers to the same question. They are not. There is no more conflict between atheism and agnosticism than there is between being a materialist in philosophy and a Freudian in psychology.

So in summary you can fully and specifically answer "do you have any belief that gods exist?" in only two ways. "Yes - I'm a theist of some sort" or "No - I'm an atheist of some sort". To answer your previous concerns with the latter iodentification it's just peachy to add "but I'm an atheist who is open to the possibility and not at all militant or belligerent towards theists". Personally I can only claim the first part pf that, but if you are more benign the second part is no contradiction or inconsistency.

If you are further asked "do you think we can ever know whether a god exists or not just from faith or from pure reason without empirical proof?" you remain perfectly free to answer with all honesty: "No - I'm an agnostic".

[trotsky]

10. Oh I dunno, maybe because out here in the real world we're despised more than any other group?

Because we're a minority that has to confront believers who enjoy their privileged position in society so much, they have to bash atheists for speaking up and not only challenging the status quo, but even just merely suggesting that it's OK to be an atheist in this religion-saturated society?

[beam me up scottie]

40. How predictable, eh?

They must have to practice for years to miss a point that obvious.

[ret5hd]

11. Yeah! Also, I hardly ever see posts about men's rights! Or oppression of whites!

:rofl:

[trotsky]

14. Or how about celebrating heterosexuality?

Man, those uppity gays and minorities! :rofl:

[darkstar3]

30. Clearly you've never been to GD.

Plenty of complete shit like what you describe in there.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. THIS! (+Trotsky's addendum)

:thumbsup: :applause:

[Deep13]

19. It's a subject worth discussing. nt

[darkstar3]

20. Then why have an R/T board at all?

Your exact statement

I respect your beliefs but so what? Who cares? I see no need to share.

could be thrown by anyone against any member of any religious group. If everyone felt the way you do, we wouldn't need an R/T board, because no one would be interested in discussing these things.

If you're not interested in discussing it or reading about it, fine, "change the channel."

[lamp_shade]

22. Is atheism a religion or a theology? I'm curious.

[darkstar3]

24. It is a lack of both.

But because it is so often referred to here in various ways by those with a religion or theology, it does have a place here.

I was going to say something about your "sit down and shut up" attitude toward atheists in my previous response to you, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. With this question, though, it is becoming evident that you don't believe atheists belong here and wish they would be quiet. How original...

[lamp_shade]

25. Thanks.

[Kablooie]

36. Because athiesm is the only true belief system. You must take athiesm into your heart!

Or you will not go to hell and not burn for eternity.

[beam me up scottie]

39. If you want an echo chamber, try the groups.

This forum is for discussion of religion and you can bet your sweet bippy I'm going to comment on something that has such a profound and unwelcome effect on my life.

[MrModerate]

52. Er, yeah.

I think you need to turn up the volume on your ironotron, because we can barely hear it.

[Jim__]

13. Funny, I've been an atheist for most of my life, and I rarely meet anyone who ...

wants me to publicly agree all the time. Of course, I don't believe that religious people are strange or childish because their beliefs about the world are different from mine. This writer seems to walk around believing that 90% of the world is strange (!!!!!) and/or childish and that all these people should just accept his/her judgement.

If this person wants to find the source of the problem, (s)he should probably look in the mirror.

[trotsky]

15. I'm glad that you evidently haven't faced difficulties in life due to your atheism.

Close family members didn't speak to me for 2 years. I have a cousin who still won't. My son really wants to join the Boy Scouts with his best friend, but he can't. (Of course even if we weren't atheists, I still wouldn't allow him to join a bigoted organization like that. But perhaps I should just respect that it's merely a different way of looking at the world, to view atheists and homosexuals as evil and immoral? How terrible of me to judge religious bigots! :eyes:)

There are a lot of people in this world who grow up in faith-saturated families who get these kinds of doubts and truly wonder if there's something wrong with them for having questions and not understanding the "answers" they are given. If they stumbled upon a piece like this, they might be genuinely shocked and relieved to know that they're NOT a freak, that there ARE other people who think the same way and who aren't happy with the superficial answers given by theists.

This was a simple blog post with one person's observations. He wasn't asking anyone to "accept his judgement (sic)," he was just stating his opinions and how religious belief has looked to him from his perspective. You know, you bash most other atheists on this board because you don't think they are respectful enough about people whose "beliefs about the world are different from" theirs. But then that's exactly what you do when you are bashing those atheists. Strange.

[ironbark]

23. I had just drafted a response to #10

Wondering-

I keep seeing references to “bash atheists for speaking up” and atheists being told to “shut up” and/or “shut up and go away” as if this was a commonplace response on the board…but I have not seen anything of that kind.

And… #13 is a prime example of “bashing those atheists” ?

[YankeyMCC]

33. I was a Town Meeting member

we have a restricted meeting meaning that we elect Town Meeting members. 99% of the time all 12 spots for each ward get 100% of the votes cast.

When I ran it was uncontested and I ran with the 3 other TMM for our ward that were up for reelection. Those 3 got 100$ of the 265 votes, I got 225. It had come out during a candidate discussion that I was atheist.

The next year a new select woman was elected to the board. She exited the meeting hall during prayer.

For several weeks members of a local evangelical christian church came and protested against her, holding signs and chanting, demanding that she "Stay and Pray"

I've had family members tell me I was immoral not for anything I did but just for not believing in their god.

I've had family members say they disowned me.

Not holding the same beliefs as the general public can be a difficult thing and oppression actually happens.

[awoke_in_2003]

54. sorry about the family...

I got lucky in that regard. Even the wife didn't balk- of course, she is a catholic church-hating catholic :)

[beam me up scottie]

58. How would you know? Have you ever left this forum?

The most offensive posts are usually in the main forums and those threads usually get locked and/or deleted.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Funny how some atheists think they're superior because they've never experienced the negative

effect religion has had in the lives of other atheists.

Fail.

[MrModerate]

53. My experience too. I hardly run across anyone who wants to save my soul.

On the other hand, I have to deal with the fact that most of the people I meet believe in fairy tales, and while that doesn't cause me much actual distress, it does make me scratch my head a lot.

It's more than "beliefs about the world" being different. We're talking basing your life on the supernatural, which has always struck me as a recipe for heartache.

An opinion borne out by history.

[awoke_in_2003]

55. try living in the south...

(of the US, that is). Hell, just last week I was washing the wife's car and someone had to try to come up and talk to me about jesus. He would not leave until I threatened to spray him with the high pressure nozzle. Some people just cannot catch a clue.

[MrModerate]

63. I think I'll just say no to your suggestion of living in the southern US . . .

Since I'm reasonably content as an expatriate observing from overseas.

I feel your pain, though. And it's kind of nice how empowering a garden hose can be.

[awoke_in_2003]

64. Yeah, moved down here...

in 1992 because my father and sisters had moved down here a few years previous. While it has been nice to have job security (well, as close as you can get these days), there are some trade offs. One of those is having to put up with over the top reliousity (sp), the other is the total lack of good pizza.

[Ysabel]

65. a broom and / or a rake will also work in a pinch...

- i've used both / lol...

[Odin2005]

16. Thanks, BMUS!

:)

[beam me up scottie]

42. Welcome, Odin.

;)

[PassingFair]

17. I remember reading this for the first time...

I loved it so much that I printed it out and stuck it
on a strong magnet on the refrigerator. My mother read
it and got ANGRY, started a fight with me and left.

She got over it pretty quickly, but I didn't.

It surprised me to see how defensive she got, really,
foaming at the mouth-type behavior.

Kind of like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

The difference being that my father was a
Freethinker and would NEVER have sat idly
by and let my mother get up in my face like
this.

[beam me up scottie]

44. Amazing reaction, isn't it? You'd think we were trying to take their blankie away.

This peaceful essay never fails to bring it out in them.

I'm sorry your mother's pov is so myopic that she would turn on her daughter simply because you don't share it.

[iris27]

34. I'm a little shocked that no one has yet come in here to express their

outrage at the idea that anyone could ever compare their deity of choice to Santa. Anytime I make an analogy, no matter how well-intentioned, between belief in a god and belief in some figure from folklore (Santa, leprechauns, vampires, werewolves, fairies, zombies, etc.), I am chided for being insensitive.

[skepticscott]

37. What's shocking is that

none of the believers in Santa have come in to express their outrage at having the guy in the red suit compared to everyone else's deity of choice. There is far more evidence for the existence of Santa than for any deity that has ever been worshipped by humans. So why does Saint Nick get dissed by everyone over the age of ten?

[beam me up scottie]

47. That's always been a touchy subject.

In this forum I try to refrain using the Santa analogy because I know it's offensive to some believers, but it's difficult to find another one when you've never believed in god(s).

[iris27]

49. I've had a little better success using deities and/or demons from religions that are "accepted" and

followed in America but are largely considered ridiculous. Xenu (from Scientology) works wonderfully, though the name isn't usually recognizable to non-Scientologists who haven't watched South Park.

[beam me up scottie]

50. Hee, South Park fans can usually take a joke!

But how else do we explain why lack of belief is the default position?

We weren't born believing in Xenu.

[awoke_in_2003]

56. "lack of belief is the default position"

Interesting statement. When I told one of my friends (he is in the "wants to believe" category) that I was an atheist, he got silent for a moment, then said "you know, we are all born atheists, but are then forced to believe in god". What I think he was getting at is that soceity forces us to take on this belief- not that we have to to "save our souls".

[beam me up scottie]

59. Right, it's more an indoctrination than suggestion.

Kids are taught to fear god early in life and their parents will never fess up and say he doesn't really exist (like Santa).

There really is a boogieman in the closet.

[awoke_in_2003]

60. Nah, that is just

Kitty

[beam me up scottie]

61. !

Loved that movie! :D

[awoke_in_2003]

62. I have to admit...

so did I. When it came out, my granddaughter was about the same age as Boo- and she has black hair just like her. She sometimes calls me Kitty :)

[jgraz]

51. That's why I try to stick to pointing and laughing

[Kablooie]

35. Is he making fun of SANTA!? By god I'll whip his ASS if he don't take Santa as his deliverer!

Deliverer of presents that is.

[beam me up scottie]

46. lmao!

No soup for you!

[awoke_in_2003]

57. Someone is NOT going to have...

a good christmas :)

[laconicsax]

43. You left out all the good parts

For starters, where's the mention of drinking the blood of freshly baptized blond children? It not only tastes good but it's good for you!

Why no mention of the weekly indoctrination gangs? I'm not out there every Wednesday evening bludgeoning theists until they recant their beliefs for nothing.

Why no mention of the annual pilgrimage tour to the Holy Temples of Marx, Darwin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot? We worship the Quintinity with devotion and it disrespects millions of faithful atheists to omit the athajj from this post.

[darkstar3]

45. I actually LOL'd. Well done. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

48. I think he saved all that for Part 2.

:)