Those of you who don't "believe in god" (whatever that phrase means to you)

[GliderGuider]

Does the word "sacred" mean something to you? If so, what does it mean? How does that feeling manifest in your life?

Does the word "sacred" make sense in the absence of divinity?

[GliderGuider]

1. Going first

I have a very strong sense of the sacred. For me it's the feeling of the special significance of interconnection in the universe that I am part of. In my universe "sacred" exists but divinity does not.

[Ian David]

2. Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk

[soleft]

3. I believe in sacred ground

The beach
Yankee Stadium - the one they torn down
Buriel Places
Ground Zero
Stonehenge
Rockefeller Ctr at Xmas
The Stone Pony

[NAO]

4. Of course it does

It makes sense in the presence of HUMANITY.

[fl_dem]

5. oh yeah

of course it does. Sacred to me means inviolable, revered, not to be disrespected. For example, my children, my grandchild my life are “sacred” to me. Don't fuck with em. O8)

[frebrd]

6. It's as meaningless as "god" or "devil" eom

[Newest Reality]

7. Being neither an atheist nor a theist puts me an odd,

rather Taoist perspective. I have inspected the argument carefully and find myself retired from it for good, in a logical sense.

So, my understanding is that once we begin to define the sacred, with that distinction arises the sacrilege and all else becomes non-sacred. Therefore, it is relative to what is valued as beneficial and holy and that is often culturally induced or reactionary.

Risking snarky retorts that reference New Age-ist rhetoric and beliefs, if I were to use the word sacred seriously, it would be in an all-inclusive, ubiquitous and non-discriminatory sense. That might require some sense of how arbitrary, ephemeral, and relative the abstractions of the boundaries we place, conceptually, between ourselves and what is apparently "out there". They are useful and functional, but the gravity we give them in all due seriousness tends to belie the the sheer pragmatism of superficial and relative differences.

[beam me up scottie]

8. It has several meanings, with and without references to deities.

"Revered" is the definition that comes to mind but it's not a word I use often because of its religious association.

[randr]

9. Sacred is a word I would give to my deep

sense of connectedness. A sense that each atom vibrating at its own frequency is a small part of a collective vibration. My participation is an acknowledgment of this totality.
I do not see any reason to anthropomorphis the acknowledgment.

[Silent3]

10. Music, poetry, the night sky...

...thinking about how very old the earth is and how brief a time humans in comparison have been living here, the distance between our little world and the next galaxy, silence, joy. These things invoke the idea of "sacred" to me. I don't see how divinity, at least personified divinity, helps make that sense of the sacred any more sensible.

If you wish to consider non-personified divinity, that would just be a synonym for the universe as it is, Spinoza's God, Einstein's God, a poetic thought meant to invoke a sense of awe and wonder that shouldn't be confused with religion and spirituality in the common sense of those words.

[omega minimo]

14. More common ground

with many on the board who are treated with contempt because of different word or image choices. Here even invoking "Spinoza's God, Einstein's God," yourself in this instance when such comments would be shot down as "woo" elsewhere.

"f you wish to consider non-personified divinity, that would just be a synonym for the universe as it is, Spinoza's God, Einstein's God, a poetic thought meant to invoke a sense of awe and wonder that shouldn't be confused with religion and spirituality in the common sense of those words."

It doesn't help the disconnect when you apparently don't understand the meaning of "spirituality in the common sense of that word" and mistakenly react to it.

Spirituality is the definition of what you have described.

[beam me up scottie]

15. Holy hypocrisy, Batman! The My-Definition-Only-Queen struck again!

you apparently don't understand the meaning of "spirituality in the common sense of that word"

Spirituality is the definition of what you have described.

We could just let om define everything, it would save a lot of time.

[darkstar3]

16. But then we'd have to update the dictionary every two days. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

18. Yeah, she is high-maintenance.

A lot of people enjoy searching for definitions, being bludgeoned by them - not so much.

[omega minimo]

22. If you didn't like my definitions

you wouldn't adopt my vocabulary and try to bludgeon others with it.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Oh, I LOVE your definitions, they are a virtual testament to your hypocrisy.

Keep up the good work!
:applause:

[omega minimo]

25. Your serial personal attacks are testament to your hypocrisy

and yes, it is sad.

[omega minimo]

21. Nonsense.

And no actual reply to the post.

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. The common sense of a word can be looked up in dictionaries

So, using Merriam-Webster (as this is an American site):

Spirituality:
1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : clergy
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual

Spiritual:
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : spiritualistic

Spirit:
1 : an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2 : a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : holy spirit b : soul 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3 : temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>
4 : the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5 a : the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness> b : an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood
6 a : a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back — J. A. Froude> b : the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>
7 : a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
8 : a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9 : a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>
10 a : distillate 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash —often used in plural (2) : any of various volatile liquids obtained by distillation or cracking (as of petroleum, shale, or wood) —often used in plural b : a usually volatile organic solvent (as an alcohol, ester, or hydrocarbon)
11 a : prevailing tone or tendency <spirit of the age> b : general intent or real meaning <spirit of the law>
12 : an alcoholic solution of a volatile substance <spirit of camphor>
13 : enthusiastic loyalty <school spirit>
14 capitalized Christian Science : god 1b

So we see that "a poetic thought meant to invoke a sense of awe and wonder" is not a definition of 'spirituality', or associated with it. Silent3 was quite right to say what they were talking about was unconnected with religion and spirituality. Why did you feel the need to criticise?

[MineralMan]

11. It's not how I define it. It's how the followers of some religion define

it. Anything considered to sacred by any religion is sacred to that religion. If you're not a follower of that religion, you may not consider it sacred.

Every religion has its sacred objects, texts, or other things. Members of other religions generally do not hold those things sacred.

As a member of no religion, I consider none of them sacred, personally. However, I respect their sacredness to the followers of whatever religion. I would never willfully dishonor something someone else held to be sacred.

However, I have no obligation to consider such things sacred on a personal basis.

How's that answer work for you? Did you have something specific in mind?

[GliderGuider]

12. No, I have nothing specific in mind

I'm just curious to see what comes up for people when they contemplate the question.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. A multi-layered question.

'Sacred' has it's own meaning, as a descriptor relating to someone else's religion. A sacred place is not sacred to me, though it is deserving of reasonable respect as any other property which is not mine. For instance, a cathedral is no more sacred to me than a castle is - both designed and built in the 12th century make them equal in historic and cultural value. A 1920s movie palace is more significant culturally than a wood frame country church built in 1967 - though people might consider the latter to be 'sacred' and the first to be an obsolete eyesore (no offense intended - I LOVE 1920s movie palaces with all the art-deco and gilt and red velvet curtains!). In fact, I suspect my feelings about the theater might be on a par with a churchgoer's feelings about his church. That doesn't mean, however, I impart any supernatural qualities to the theater.

Similarly, sacred music is a descriptor which, to me, means nothing except the motivation of the composer. I personally value Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" more than I do Handel's "Messiah" - but that's only because I thing the Toccata is just about as perfect as music can be, and I don't shun the Messiah because it is "sacred music" (and of course the Toccata was composed when Bach was the church organist at Arnstadt - does that make this secular piece 'sacred'?).

I never use the word to describe my own feelings about something - only to reference other peoples' ideas. I can't overlook the religious implications of the word.

[ashling]

17. Let me recommend

Reverence: Renewing a Forgotten Virtue by Paul Woodruff

this is an excellent book which has a lot to say on this subject.

[GliderGuider]

23. I second the recommendation

"Reverence begins in a deep understanding of human limitations; from this grows the capacity to be in awe of whatever we believe lies outside our control. The capacity for awe brings with it the capacity for respecting fellow human beings, flaws and all. Simply put, reverence is the virtue that keeps human beings from trying to act like gods."

Wonderful stuff indeed.

[laconicsax]

19. In order:

Yes. It is an adjective used to denote objects or rituals as having special significance within the framework of a superstitious belief set.

The word "sacred" manifests no feelings in my life. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this question. "Scared" is a feeling, but "sacred" is not.

Yes, but not in absence of religious practice. I prefer to not use the word as hyperbole to mean "very important" as tends to happen.

Nothing should be sacred--nothing above reproach.

[YankeyMCC]

20. I suggest it isn't important how we each define or find

what we think of as 'sacred'

It's more important what we do to help and protect what we think of as sacred.

That becomes a problem when a person thinks of the work of enforcing their own ideas on others as sacred.

That becomes a source of connection when people come together to do work that lead towards protecting or helping each other.

[ashling]

26. Is nothing sacred?

[Odin2005]

27. Yes. I consider the cosmos itself sacred.

It is the sense of wonder and awe of the world around us.

[tama]

28. Etymologically

c.1300, from pp. of obsolete verb sacren "to make holy" (early 13c.), from O.Fr. sacrer (12c.), from L. sacrare "to make sacred, consecrate," from sacer (gen. sacri) "sacred, dedicated, holy, accursed," from O.L. saceres, which Tucker connects to base *saq- "bind, restrict, enclose, protect," explaining that "words for both 'oath' & 'curse' are regularly words of 'binding.' " But Buck merely groups it with Oscan sakrim, Umbrian sacra and calls it "a distinctive Italic group, without any clear outside connections."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=sacred

In my language the etymology of the usual translation of 'sacred' means 'border', perhaps also in the sense of tabu.

[DeSwiss]

29. In answer to your questions:

Does the word "sacred" mean something to you? No. If so, what does it mean? N/A How does that feeling manifest in your life? N/A Does the word "sacred" make sense in the absence of divinity? N/A

[Christa]

39. I think DeSwiss and I

were separated at birth

:hug:

[Jokerman]

46. deleted

I replied to the wrong post.

D'oh.

[omega minimo]

30. “A single connection is the quantum unit of the sacred.”

When we feel that connection with something larger than we are, that's sacred.

[Deep13]

31. I don't think so.

"Sacred" implies divinity. Things may be important, special, awesome, wonderous etc. etc. but still not be sacred.

[iris27]

32. +1

To me, "sacred" has inescapable religious connotations.

[omega minimo]

33. " "Sacred" implies divinity" What is divinity?

[Deep13]

35. That which pertains to god. nt

[GliderGuider]

36. Does "sacred" *necessarily* imply divinity?

There are a number of common definitions that say it doesn't. Since I don't have any belief in divinity but I do have feelings I interpret as "sacred" I give those other definitions some credence.

[omega minimo]

40. Not AFAIK

However, these words seem to be stumbling blocks for people for personal reasons.

These recent discussion which suggested potential improvement in relations, have revealed mostly denial, hostility and firm resolve to USE words in that way, as barriers, not devices of communication. Mis/use of a word by one person is attacked; concepts that are refuted via attacking a word, are discussed openly and freely among the members of the club.

[GliderGuider]

41. True that.

There's a lot of investment in defensive postures around here.

[omega minimo]

43. The common ground

could yield some interesting discussions. Seems you've studied and written about such things. Thanks for the links and kicking your OP. :thumbsup:

[dmallind]

34. Well I don't believe in any gods but I'll try

Of course the word sacred has meaning to me. As do the words "lycanthrope" or "vampiric". People of all belief systems can and do understand thousands of words related to things they personally believe to be imaginary. So we all I hope know full well what sacred means - something revered as being important to a religious belief (or in the common vernacular any passionately held belief such as Yankee Stadium being "sacred ground"). That feeling, obviously only speaking for me, does not manifest itself in my life in teh religious sense, and only at a minor level in the latter common meaning. I'm an opera nut. La Scala is important to the history of, and current, opera scene. I have been there and was thrilled to see it. I would be upset if it were blown up, moreso than if say a grocery store were, but I realize that is my personal attachment and sentiment rather than any real or immanent special status of the building. Some people of course may be more or less affected, but that is the meaning of sacred that is non-divine.

[Christa]

38. Not really

It is as meaningless as the word "faith".

[Beringia]

42. nevermind

[immoderate]

44. It's an expression of high esteem. Why not?

Try this, does the meaning of sacred rely on the actual existence of God?

If theists ever realize the truth, it will be a miracle.:)

--imm

[crumb77]

45. Just like the term MARRIAGE, SACRED has

become a term applied to modern english vernacular. Regardless of religious views, the term can refer the importance of something described by an individual. I consider my record collection to be sacred to me, even in the absence of divinity. The term "Marriage" may have originated from the bible, but now it is used in civil legislation. That is why atheists can get married. Ancient words can evolve into a modern definition.

[omega minimo]

49. "That is why atheists can get married."

"The term "Marriage" may have originated from the bible, but now it is used in civil legislation."

:wtf::popcorn:

[Jokerman]

47. I have never thought of or described anything as being "sacred" to me.

So I guess that makes my answer a resounding NO.

[Toasterlad]

48. Not As Such.

Some people/things are important to me personally, and some people/things I hold dear, but I hold nothing "sacred".