Part One, Define: God----Part two, Define: god

[cosmik debris]

Disclaimer: I am an atheist, so this is merely an intellectual exercise to me, no emotional investment. But I am intensely curious about the number of Theist who can agree on a definition of "God" that is mutually exclusive of the definition of "god"

Please boggle my mind.

[China_cat]

1. I'm not a theist but

god is a job description, not a name.

[cosmik debris]

3. Nice one

I am now more enlightened than I was five minutes ago.

Let's see if anyone agrees with you.

[China_cat]

8. They won't.

Haven't found one yet in 45 years of looking.

[Igel]

39. No, I agree with you.

I am a theist.

Search over. :-)

[cosmik debris]

43. WHEW!!!!!

I was turning a little blue.

[cosmik debris]

44. but it doesn't count. You are a theist agreeing with an atheist.

(deep breath) Here we go again.

[Igel]

46. What?!

We're not allowed to agree?

Damn.

Where's the :beer: ?

[cosmik debris]

47. You are encougaged to agree,

but I was trying to find two or more Theists who agree on the definition of God/god. Can you find anyone to agree with you?

[Dr.Phool]

2. I think if you study The DaVinci Code closely

You'll find that God is a canine. If you read the words backwards it's clear, God backwards is Dog. And I think a Labrador Retriever specifically. Mine blesses me with his love every day, and demands an offering several times a day.:spank: :spank: :spank: ow ow owww, :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

[cosmik debris]

6. Last year I drove to Labrador

To conduct an experiment to test the hypothesis that if you throw a tennis ball IN Labrador it will always be returned. I got up there and realized that I had forgotten my tennis ball. I looked for one all the way from Red Bay to Blanc Sablon and I could not find one. I think I need a new hypothesis.

[Beaver Tail]

4. Need to clairify

By capitalizing the G you are using a proper noun obviously referencing a specific entity. The lowercase g would refer to a common noun that describes a number of beings. It seems to be the difference between polytheist and a monotheist. Is this what you are getting at?

[cosmik debris]

7. I missed that point of view

Thank you. But what I was really getting at was the difference between the real God and the fake god.

Please excuse my Christian cultural bias, but I was looking for definitions that would apply to Zeus as a god and Jesus as a God, but still be mutually exclusive.

[Beaver Tail]

14. Well first

Jesus was not a God, he was the only son of God. Sometimes Christians miss that point. Jesus was here to represent God, not to be God. Is Jesus a divine being? Yes, but so are angels.

This thinking only counts if you’re Christian. If you are a Jew or Muslim you of course reject Jesus as the son of God and accept him as another profit speaking through God. This woudl mean there is only one God (Allah if you so desire).

One similarity between Judaism, Islam and Christianity is the belief in one all powerful God. This is what really counts all three of these religions have the same starting point therefore the same God.

As for Greco Roman Beliefs, I took that in High school (20 years ago). The Ancient Greek’s for examples had gods and not God. In a god there is a typically a weakness and human fragilities. A god is usually assigned to some apect in human life. In God no such weakness exists. A god is fallible, God is not.

I am no theologist, just giving my thoughts.

[cosmik debris]

16. Got me!

I should have used Yahweh in the Christian example.

Thanx

[Beaver Tail]

21. Yahweh, Allah, God and so on

are all the different names for the same being.

[cosmik debris]

27. You have listed several attributes of God and god

It is interesting that you are the first to do that. I was expecting to hear more on that subject. I wish now that I had phrased the original post as "list the attributes of" instead of "define"

But my original interest was in how much agreement there was among Theists. Can you get an "Amen!" on that?

[SteppingRazor]

5. God is a proper name, god is not.

God references a specific deity, the all-powerful Big Guy at the head of Judeo-Christian faiths. Lowercase "god," is simply used to denote various gods and goddesses from all mythos.

Thus, God is similar in meaning to Zeus or Thor.

[cosmik debris]

12. very good--I think

So God is what you believe in and god is what you don't believe in. Succinct, mutually exclusive and to the point.

How many agree? By a show of hands! I'll count.

[SteppingRazor]

15. More accurately...

God is what "they" believe in. I'm agnostic -- "God? Eh? Oh, I dunno. Whatever."

[cosmik debris]

17. Pardon me

I was prepared to get my ass kicked when I started this thread, but like I said, no emotional investment.

[Beaver Tail]

25. No reason to kick your ass

You asked a genuine honest and open question. You never attacked anyones belief so anyone who would attack you for your question would be over sensitive and over reacting.

The question is academic really and not religious.

[beam me up scottie]

9. This should be good.

:popcorn:

[cosmik debris]

13. It's my job.

I am here for your amusement.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Amusement ?

In the R & T forum ?

Perish the thought!

[cosmik debris]

36. fizzle

Hardly worth the price of admission. Please allow me to refund the price of your ticket.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Thanks.

Geez, what's this place coming to if you can't even have a good old fashioned atheist verses non-atheist street brawl ?:evilfrown:

[skids]

10. I dunno -- the latter can be use in plural form...

...and the former can't?

[cosmik debris]

20. We can't have Gods

That is the polytheist/monotheist slant that I had missed. Are polytheist required to used the lowercase?

[Beaver Tail]

22. I would assume so

as each god would have a proper name that would be capitalized.

To have Gods would like to have Bobs Smith or Janes Smith.

[cosmik debris]

24. I love your assault

on my semantic argument!

I surrender.

[undergroundpanther]

11. I am

A mystical atheist which basically means I admit I don't know everything and there are things that are anomalies. I have experienced them myself.
There is an unknown,I do not know what consciousness is,

As fora god/ess to me it is combination archetype, collective unconscious/dream/ego function,comfort blanket,unknown internal mechanism in me that does shir science can't explain YET,and unknown yet sometimes responding mechanism outside of me that effects probability I happen to call Sekhmet, that is the handle I use on it.

Is it god?
I dunno.

Is god in me or outside of me?
I dunno.

Is there a god or gods?
I dunno.


All I know is life here is flawed, life suffers in life,and life brings death, and it is hard here and painful reality is fragmented,blind,ignorant,wise,insane, senselessly horrible,a miasma, and intensely beautiful and I wish to escape it all and not exist,not feel not be because of the pain .


Death is a fact we all will face one day and we are powerless to know how much time we have or what happens to our consciousness when the body's gone.we could just shut down like when a computer is turned off,we could go somewhere else,get sucked into births,I really do not know and I think nobody else does either,we all guess..Choice of the moment is all we got now..We can choose an act of integrity or corruption or something in between healthy or sick,a billion different ways limited by our creativity and sometimes the options we see.. we choose moment by moment.Reality does not always respect our choices.Some choices we make color our whole life POV some we just take in from everyone else without question,some we struggle with.Than we die.
And for me I dunno what happens than..Not until I go than I'll find out ,or maybe not.I guess..

So I conclude, I am trapped here, I was brought here by the biological urges of my parents,born into life in this particular body without my consent, into this insane society I inherited with all it's flaws and achievements of generations before..with this insane life that is dying all the time subjected to murderous bloody clawed evolution ruthless age and decline,a perishable vulnerable tremendously strong thing that dies to suffer and enjoy for a time a consciousness in a body that is trapped in a head reaching out,expressing,seeing with my eyes,until that unknown time it all stops or changes..and it is not in my control any more than being born is.Life is a paradox you have freedom of choice yet you have no choice.It's a mystery.For now.So what is God?

I dunno if there is one many or none,whether it's in me,my imagination outside of me,or all of the above. I do not know,.
In the popul Vuh it says the Gods blinded us deliberately because we rivaled them in wisdom,power and sight and they did not want that.

So I don't trust those archon types of gods,Yahweh is like that too,control freak lawgiver gods suck as do control freak authoritarian people...They are all bullies projected,living here or enacted , either way they are something sick in us, from us or ruling some of us...and it has to stop.Somehow.

[undergroundpanther]

19. And I never

bow down obey and worship to any"god" whether it is in me,outside of me or any combination.I consider myself equally valid and important as any other life here and as important any god.
I am responsible for my choices,and the impact they cause in this world all the ones *I* make..for bad or good limited options or not.
For I share this world with countless other beings and my actions and expressed intention it impacts them too.

Sometimes what I think is good harms and what I think is bad is good.
Sometimes I choose because I have nothing else.
Sometimes the burden of un free freedom hurts my copiousness with it's cognitive dissonance.

Everywhere for me is cognitive dissonance and flux and changes. A miasma of life and death freedom and prison ignorance and wisdom called life where health or a state of homeostasis is impossible..a vain exercise that we strive for..relentlessly.Heaven is impossible here for the forces of decay and change, choices and counter choices all interacting, all locked up in a billion zillion brains trying to communicate with a broken device it makes it impossible to feel as one,impossible to be one.Only a unifying force like altruism,cult leadership,war or trauma can sometimes create temporary bonds that feel like unity a feeling like homeostasis.And even that is temporary..

[cosmik debris]

23. I don't mean to be rude

and I won't disagree with anything you said, but would you please summarize that into a couple of sentences relating to the definition of God and god.

[undergroundpanther]

29. I can't

Sorry,

I'm not good at making sound-bytes out of complicated things.
I'm not a one sentence quip maker and pithy when I try to understand things.
Maybe you should be careful what you ask for, because maybe the problem is your question.

Do I worship,bow down and give my decision making capabilities over to some god thing? No. Defining a god concept like what I have made for me is like trying to define how I see the unknown and IS-ness. And Isness/unknowns on the edge of my perceptions is impossible to define in a simple sound-byte.
Sorry dude,no pithy answer here..Go ask a Christian..They have one sentence phrase definitions for their god they bandy about as if it's wise and profound ,is that what you wanted? Sorry I ain't got an answer for ya than.

And do not apologize for being rude in advance..It only admits to me you know exactly how rude you are being to me and that you have a pre formed concept about how rude what you choose to say about my responses will be heard,It would be rude if I chose to give a rats ass and take your opinions personally.. :)

[cosmik debris]

31. That's alright

My original interest was in how many theists agree. So now we can just sit back and see how many agree with you. Right now it seems to be a zero to zero tie. I'll be patient. And remember, no emotional investment.

[Brentos]

26. I'll bite...

God is a representation of the proper name of a god...Yahweh (Jehovah). "I Am Who I Am".

"god" is a term for a creator-being greater then mankind.

The Christian/Jewish/Muslim God is an all-powerful deity that is the one above all others, you can worship no other god.

Zeus, Athena, et al. are gods that are representative of specific aspects.

I think it is possible that there are more then one god (creator beings considered greater then human) but I personally believe in God. My God tells me that I cannot worship other gods and that He is above all others, and I believe that. I respectfully disagree with those who don't, but since we are dealing with belief, I would never denigrate them (or non-believers).

This is my take. Thoughts?

[cosmik debris]

28. Your definitions do not exclude each other

Is God a god but not all gods are God? I was looking for definitions that could not overlap.

But you do bring an interesting question to mind. In the first of the ten commandments do we have both terms used with the same definition?

[Beaver Tail]

30. To accept God

you are monotheistic ther for no other gods exist. The word God as a being is accepted in only monotheistic cultures. As I mentioned before I have looked at Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Ancient Greece. I have also taken a quick look at Wiccan and Pegan religions in the past (I have an exgirlfriend who was a pegan).

Any time you see god it will be in conjunction with a specific named deity (Zeus) or referenced in their role in life (The god of the sky) so you will be dealing with a polytheistic belief.

Who is right who is wrong? It really is what YOU believe. For me, I am Christian.

Edit here:

Because you are an atheist you question is actually moot as an atheist has nothing to prove. You cannot prove if you don't believe it exists without tangable evidence. God is not tangable. To an atheist God and god are abstract ideas, like a Van Gogh paintings. To the religious God or gods are quite real.

[cosmik debris]

32. That certainly sounds like a legitimate understanding.

But I can't help fixating on the first commandment thing. If you will allow me to digress from the OP, How can you have other gods before me if there are no other gods. They didn't teach me the answer to that at Baptist college. So do those two uses of the word have the same definition. Is God defining himself in terms of gods?

EUREKA!!! Mind boggling has occurred!

[Beaver Tail]

33. Thou Shall Not Have Any Gods Before Me

In essence it probably means "You will not believe in any other god". It's like reading Shakespeare

What woudl help is be able to read ancient greek and hebrew. Ths woudl help alot because something could be lost in the translation.

Frankly I don't trust traditional Christian doctrine.

[cosmik debris]

35. I wonder

was the word capitalized in the original? Or was capitalization a convention that had been invented at that time? That's way beyond me.

[Brentos]

37. A convention

Remember, you can replace God with Yhwh, it is a name, not a type of being. "god" is a type of being. This part is a semantics argument. God is a god. gods are not God. God can exist with other gods.

Think of it as Bob is a human. humans are not Bob. Bob can exist with other humans.

Christians (of which I am one) generally believe Yahweh (Jehovah, I am..., etc. same God different names/titles) is the only god. I personally don't discount the idea that their could be other gods, just that I am forbidden from worshiping them (as they would all be lesser then God, as per my belief).

The Commandment was written because at that time, society was polytheistic and was becoming a monotheistic society. Back then, gods were localized deities and when you went to the next town over, you worshiped their god (Baal), when you went downriver a bit to the next town, you worshiped that local god. So, if you worshiped Yahweh, a traveling God, you would tend to also worship the local deities (real or not). Therefore God is saying, don't worship them, only worship me.

Interesting discussion!

[cosmik debris]

42. So who agrees

Do you agree with anyone, does anyone agree with you I just want to find two Theists who agree on the definition. Until then, All definitions will be considered legit.

[Zorbuddha]

53. A god is out there. God is in here

AND out there.

The problem lies in the nature of the discussion. Whether the discussion is about the real or the perceived.

It's God as a part, or all, of the real that we have a hard time coming to terms with. Very different from God as a part of our collective fantasy that we are only fooling ourselves with.

Small g gods are the mythic characters of our attempts to find a workable, and meaningful, context.

[Zorbuddha]

52. Beware the false

however it is tarted up.

[cosmik debris]

34. Two observations

We haven't gotten a lot of response from the Theists, and we haven't gotten a lot of agreement. Let's all hold our breath until someone posts a subject line "I agree with. . . ."

[Brentos]

59. I agree with...

Maybe this will help this semantical argument.

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/God

[More Than A Feeling]

40. The Christian God is an absolute being

who is outside of history. (My conclusion, don't expect or need anyone else to share it)

A god is anything that people make the focal point of their life. That could be God or it could be money, relationships, themselves...pretty much anything.

In response to your observations above, I am a theist. Have I agreed with anyone?

[cosmik debris]

41. It is not up to me to say

I am trying to avoid evaluating the values express except for the one value of agreement. That is as subjective as the definitions themselves. If you agree, you will be the first to know. I hope you will fill us in. But I am still holding my breath.

[More Than A Feeling]

45. Now that I have had a chance to read all the posts, Brentos and I agree

We are both Christian, and we both have the same definition of "god", although he restricted his to other concepts of deity and I did not.

[cosmik debris]

48. Just to test your agreement, can you summarize you definitions

in a sentence or two so that comparison is easier? Originally I was looking for mutually exclusive definitions, but it seems That ain't gonna happen, Just give it your best shot.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

49. interesting concept

but not one I can buy into, as my concept is God is everything. Since there is no seperationg, there can't be anything else.

[Zorbuddha]

51. God can never be remotely understood

on a superficial level. But can be perceived on every one.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

54. Amin!

Like you username-a combination of Zoroaster and Buddha?

[Zorbuddha]

55. Interesting

More of a combination between Zorba the Greek and Buddha. But, I like the idea of Zoroaster in there, too. I'm a big fan. It is an acknowledgement of the two sides the human spirit.

Tell me about your username?

http://zorbuddha.com

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

56. My spiritual names

Ayesha and Haqqiqa. They were given to me at different times through different spiritual teachers. Ayesha was the youngest wife of the Beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); Haqqiqa has in it the word "Haqq", which is a Divine Name which means "Truth".

edited to add words to make this make sense-too early in the morning to make too much sense, I guess! :)

[Zorbuddha]

58. Beautiful

I always enjoy your posts, and I've been curious.

[Zorbuddha]

50. God is a conspiracy theory

gods are the conspirators.

[DoYouEverWonder]

57. God is light

Without light nothing would exist.

In order for a being to be alive, the spark of light must burn within. Therefore god is in all living things.

[truthpusher]

61. Closest thing I know to what g/God might be...

...I think the Atheists have a hard time with the idea of an "intelligent" God. When people start to see that humankind is not the greatest (purposeful or accidental) creation...then we may start setting aside the incessant, self important view that the universe revolves around us. Atheists are intelligent narcissists. If there is a God, I doubt seriously that we can even begin to understand where and whence God came.

[truthpusher]

60. g/God is a misguided attempt to define something that is...

indefinable. How many dimensions are there? How many do we see? How many do we understand? How many matter, and why do they matter?

Answer the above questions and then ask yourself: What was I created from? When you see what you have been created from, ask yourself what you are? Am I made of what I was created from? Does this in turn make me as much the "Creator" as the "Created"?

Are we having problems understanding g/God because we are having a problem with God as an 'Intelligent' creative being? What if g/God had no definable intelligence? or possibly an intelligence that lies within a dimension that is one of the dimensions that we do not understand?