"Our Lord doesn't put up with killing"

[cosmik debris]

"I know my lord doesn't"

A GREAT QUOTE FROM CINDY!!!

Even the atheists among us have to appreciate that one!

[Igel]

1. Yes, he does.

There's been an awful lot of it, and either her lord is pretty impotent and has no choice in the matter, or he puts up with a heck of a lot.

Unless Cindy meant 'approve of'.

[cosmik debris]

2. lighten up

Her Lord doesn't put up with it, Bush's Lord does. Get it?

[Igel]

3. It's a foolish way of saying it.

It's like my saying I don't put up with humidity in Texas. I either don't dare go outside, because I'm actually powerless to do anything about it, or I'm mouthing drivel and should expect some well deserved mockery.

If you don't say what you mean you can't mean what you say. This is undesirable in a spokesperson. (No attribution because I can't remember where I read it.)

If what Cindy says is drivel, I'll lighten up.

[cosmik debris]

4. You are a real downer aren't you?

.

[Bill McBlueState]

5. agreed

Where the hell is this god who's supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving? Busy with a different galaxy?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-- Epicurus (341-270 BC)

[PsychoDad]

7. Epicurus makes a few assumptions.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent

Assumes that God does not wish humans to have control over their own actions. Evil is what man does to himself and the world around him, if we did not have the right to choose our actions, we would only be automatons.

Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent.

Is it malevolence when parents give their children choices and consequences? Is it malevolence when the children make mistakes, even going against the advice of the parents? No, it's part of learning. Does that mean that parents want their children to fail? Of course not, but how do we learn if we are not allowed to make choices on our own. Sometimes our screw ups teach us more than our triumphs. Epicurus wishes to give man no credit or blame for his own actions. Does Epicurus assume that humanity is simply victims of cosmic chance, and that we neither learn, nor have ability to do good of our own choosing?

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Evil comes from man. From arrogance, greed, and ignorance. Again, Epicurus assumes we have no control over our own actions, ant that we cannot learn from the experience of ourselves and others. We are more than simply reactive organisms in the cosmic stew, we can foresee the outcome of our actions and the actions of others. We are creative and we can change our environment to make life better for us and others. We can also change it for the reverse, and all to often do.

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Again, It, God, may well be able and willing, but suppose if your parents stepped in and stopped you from making any choices that may have brought harm to you or others, would you be the person you are today? Would you have the experiences that you needed to become an adult? If you were an automaton without thought and feeling, it wouldn't matter, but as a creature with both and the ability to choose, wouldn't you feel constricted and resentful of all the oppressive authority? God just can't win. You are either a being with freewill, intellect, foresight and the ability to learn or you are an automation, without any of the above. Personally I kinda like being a Human, even with the learning experiences and frailties that come my way.

Epicurus assumes that there is nothing more to reality or humanity than what he can see, and assumes that humans have no choice in their actions, and thus no shared blame for the evil he has done to himself. He must thus also assume that we are either unable to learn or that we do not need to because there is no purpose to existence.

The argument here is, if there is a god, why did it create humans with forethought, creativity and the ability to learn and use that knowledge to change himself and his environment, and after creating this creature, why did god place this soul into a frail body and place it in an environment that would challenge all those abilities?

Maybe to learn? To gain experience in what and who we are?

I for one an glad that I had teachers in my life that challenged my abilities and allowed me to learn about myself and the world around us. I seldom ever learned much when the lesson was easy.


Peace.

[grumpy old fart]

8. I'll take Epicurus at face value. Not to quibble, but your explanation...

seems to reveal a God interested in cruel jests....

Q: "The argument here is...why did god place this soul into a frail body and place it in an environment that would challenge all those abilities?

A:"Maybe to learn? To gain experience in what and who we are"?

If all this madness is for us to "learn" why give us extremely short lifespans? So we can have an "aha" moment before we kick off?

Two other possibilities, of course:

1. There is a God, but he's irrelevant

2. There is no God.

[PsychoDad]

13. Life is what we make of it.

I think how we face the challenges of life are up to us. You may see life as "madness" or a "cruel jest", I see it as an opportunity to try and improve myself and do good around me.

I don't know if the purpose to our lives is learning. And why such short life spans, some much shorter than others? Maybe it's all the time we need, again, I don't know, but perhaps the "aha" moment doesn't even come during this life, but afterward when we can look back upon it all.

There is a third possibility also.

3. There is a God, very relevant to our existence,and we are unable to comprehend it or it's plan at present.

In any case, you may be right, we each have to make the decision which theory we follow on our own, or even make no decision, that is for each of us decide. What is important is that we make of life what we can and do what we can for the betterment of ourselves and humanity, and even if I cannot enjoy the fruits of my labor after this life because there is no afterward, then at least I get the reward of knowing now that I maybe helped someone else in some small way.

And I think most atheists would agree with that, wouldn't they?

[grumpy old fart]

16. Agreed, and peace be with you.

Nobody can actually KNOW the truth to these issues, of course. If only the leaders of organized religion would admit this and stop trying to impose their beliefs on others, we could have lively debate without the loss of life. A sad state of affairs.

[cosmik debris]

6. Tough crowd

She slammed *, she hit him right in the religion and what does she get from DU? A critique of her rhetoric and religious philosophy. You folks must be having a really hot Saturday night.

[NAO]

9. He ORDERS it!! Repeatedly. The Lord commands: "if it breathes, kill it!"

Numbers 31:17-18 The Lord commands that all the men, all the little boys and the mothers are to be killed, but the virgins kept alive "for yourselves":

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

***

Deuteronomy 7:2 The Lord orders a war of extermination:

"And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them"

***

Deuteronomy 20:10-20 IF IT BREATHES, GOD ORDERS YOU TO KILL IT! In this passage the Lord gives some very special and detailed instructions for his war of extermination.

- When attacking a city, make them an offer - they can become your slaves.

- If they don't go for the slavery offer, and they are "far off" from the Homeland, kill all the men and keep the women and cattle as slaves and spoil, respectively.

- If they care close by, then The Lord orders you to murder every last one of them, and kill their cows too, just for good measure.

- Oh, yeah, when you are murdering every last person and their cows too, do not kill any trees as you might need them in the future.

"When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee."

"And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations."

"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:..."

"When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege"

***
***

I could go ON and ON and ON, there are just SO MANY passages like this in the "Good Book", but I think you get the general idea.

"God is the same yesterday, today, and forever"

[onager]

10. And as usual, the Religionists completely dodge the issue...

Comparing a god to parents? Parents don't have a multi-billion dollar P.R. industry constantly bragging about their omnipotence. Most religions do, certainly the most aggressive ones like Xianity and Islam.

I know, I know. (Insert name here) is not a REAL Xian. Or Muslim.

And life experience? Well, I work with a perfectly nice woman who had 4 sons. Just after Xmas, she took two of her boys, aged 12 and 14, out to Burger King. While they were eating outside, gang-bangers walked up and shot both her kids in the head, right in front of her. They died the next day.

Now someone tell me what important lesson that Omnipotent Sky-Daddy, who supposedly watches every sparrow etc., was teaching this poor woman.

When all the gabble and hot air is stripped away from your elisions, justifications, and phony philosophical cant, you'll be left with nothing more than the same explanation we atheists have. Which is none at all.

[PsychoDad]

14. Honestly, I can't agree more.

"you'll be left with nothing more than the same explanation we atheists have. Which is none at all.

I can't explain why humans do such evil to each other, but I do know that such acts contradict what both Atheists and Theists know to be right and humane.

The gang-bangers were the ones who decided to violate both the laws of man and god, They were the ones who killed the poor children. Yes, from my viewpoint, Allah did allow it to happen, as Allah allows us all to make choices both for our benefit or harm. Why this mother? Why these children? I cannot say, but I do know that the children would have been received into the presence of Allah, and that I would see them again someday, and that would have brought me some comfort, however misguided you may think it is.

You are right, I have no explanation as to why, but I do believe in consequences for our actions.

And I believe that the gang-bangers will answer for their actions on the last day, to the children, the mother and to their creator who gave us all the ability to know that these actions were wrong.

And if I'm wrong, and you are right, then none of it matters at all in the end, does it?

Then why blame God, who you don't believe in? Blame man.

And as for the billions in PR? I for one think that is part of the problem. God doesn't need the money, poor people do. Most of these people are promoting themselves and their own little god for their own gain, not for the benefit of others who need the help.

Peace.

[grumpy old fart]

17. Though religion can be a comfort, giving meaning where there is none......

It is also a great divider, and a justification for all sorts of mischief. Iraq wants to enshrine their fantasy in the Constitution, Iran already has, we saw the Taliban taking it to its logical extreme, Bush would love for us to be a Christian theocracy....and these are just the most recent examples. Comfort v. Justification for evil.

And yes, Cindy was just using irony to make her point. But we are on the Religion discussion board, right?

[cosmik debris]

11. Jeezus F. Christ, folks, it was a joke!

She was not making an epistemological or syllogistic argument, she was slamming Shrub's religious hypocrisy. I am sorry it went over your head, but IT WAS A JOKE! No in-depth analysis is required.

[NAO]

12. Chillest Thou Out, or the LORD Will Smite Thee with the Edge of the Sword

and yer cattle too.

[PsychoDad]

15. And it was good for her.

To take back her God from the clutches of Bush. :)