Take this, atheists!

[LAGC]

There are four fundamental forces at play in the universe: gravity (consisting of gravitons), electromagnetism (consisting of photons), the weak nuclear force (consisting of weak gauge bosons), and the strong nuclear force (consisting of gluons).

If any of these four forces were even slightly out of alignment, life would never have existed. The formation of stable nuclei depends on the ratio of the strong and electromagnetic forces -- the protons in a nucleus repel each other, but the strong force overcomes this repulsion. A small change in their relative strengths could allow the electromagnetic force to overcome the strong force, and atoms could not exist. If electrons were any more massive, then electrons and protons would be disposed to bond and form neutrons, thus disrupting the formation of heavy elements. The strength of gravity is also important: if it were any stronger, stellar matter would bind more strongly and stars would use their nuclear fuel much faster, thus negating the possibility of the evolution of life. If gravity were any weaker, matter might not "clump together" to form larger structures, thereby preventing the formation of stars in the first place.

Therefore, God must exist and have set those forces into their current alignments to begin with.

Check-mate, atheists!

[Oregone]

1. "Therefore, God must exist......"

:rofl:

This is parody, right?

[Kceres]

2. Therefore, God must exist?

That's quite a leap isn't it?

[angstlessk]

3. Proof of God...take that to the cleaners...

I think not...sorry...proves science..not god.....where IS god in that scenario?

[geckosfeet]

4. It logically follows that god is a physicist.

[hatrack]

11. Certainly, He'd have to have cosmos-class math skills just for starters . ..

:hi:

[Speck Tater]

5. Faulty logic.

While I agree that the existence of some kind of "cosmic consciousness" is possible, and from anecdotal evidence such as NDE experiences, maybe even probable, that line of reasoning doesn't really work.

If any of those constants were any different we simply wouldn't be here to argue about it. There doesn't need to be any "reason" why they are they way they are. In fact, there could be billions and billions of uncountable billions of parallel universes where the constants ARE different, but there's nobody there to talk about it.

Belief in God is fine. In fact I lean in that direction myself. But dragging up false arguments only makes the believer's position look silly to the atheist.

[BrklynLiberal]

6. Did you forget something?

:sarcasm:

[moksha]

7. Not quite. It means none of this would exist without these forces.

It makes sense that we find these forces, since we have existence. It says absolutely nothing about god. It is checkmate in your mind, only.

I hope this was not posted in seriousness.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

8. And if the Ohio mega millions hadn't been 576-557-949-8...

than Bernice McMillian wouldn't have won all that money.

But she did.

And if my parents had never met I wouldn't exist. But I do... as best as I can manage.

And if conditions in the universe were not exactly perfect for life to exist then nobody would be writing tedious twaddle marveling at their own existence.

Why is this so hard to get...

If the universe were not just so then we wouldn't be around to consider the fact.

Do you happen to know how many universes have ever existed, or currently exist?

Nobody does.

What are the odds that of all the universes that have ever existed, of all the physical laws that have ever arisen, we happen to live in the universe where everything was just right for life?

One Hundred Freaking Percent.

A universe that we know currently supports life supports life.

Duh.

[frogmarch]

9. And

if any of my ancestors had been stillborn, I would never have existed.

Therefore...ummmm.

[lob1]

10. Apple, apple, apple...orange.

[flakey_foont]

12. Oh, ..Puh......leeeeze!!

not on this site, okay?

[LAGC]

13. Wow, those were rapid responses!

Yes, it is easy to marvel at how "lucky" we apparently are. Everything "just happened" to work out right for life in our universe to turn out the way it did so that we are here to be able to even ponder it.

Makes you wonder how many other universes exist out there where the forces are different, and what forms of matter (and life?) could possibly exist in them and how they ponder their existence?

Sure is interesting to think about...

[Angry Dragon]

14. You proved four things exist ....... nothing more

[ironbark]

15. Not only exists.....She's English.

God has left her alphabet (and numbers) on butterfly wings as clear proof-



God must exist and have set those wing patterns into their current alignments to begin with.

Check-mate AGAIN, atheists!

[JuniperLea]

20. God is a butterfly?

That's nice:)

[Nihil]

48. Papilio Tempestae

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the-quantum-weather-butterfly-papilio-tempestae/1329491.html
:-)

[LAGC]

25. That's pretty cool.

Where'd you find that?

[ironbark]

35. Google images- Butterfly alphabet.

It’s a poster we used to have for the kids.

(I’m pretty sure any dedicated photographer could produce one in Arabic, Farsi or Latin….but it is cool ;-)

[CrownPrinceBandar]

16. `I refuse to prove that I exist, says God...

`for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish four fundamental forces is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic."
`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
"Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his bestselling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God."


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Chapter_6

[Hugabear]

17. Silly OP...the banana has already proven the existence of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yBvvGi_2A

Can't argue with that kind of logic.

[JuniperLea]

21. Monkey is Man!

I knew it!



Moses kisses Man!

[DeSwiss]

33. Sorry. Here's what the bananas look like that god invented.....

Seeds and all:



Don't look so perfect in the wild, do they???? :)

[pokerfan]

42. It's fairly obvious that the banana is intelligently designed

Here's what they looked like before they were cultivated:



Recent archaeological and palaeoenvironmental evidence at Kuk Swamp in the Western Highlands Province of Papua New Guinea suggests that banana cultivation there goes back to at least 5000 BCE, and possibly to 8000 BCE.

[FiveGoodMen]

18. Even if we agreed that a god must exist -- WE DON'T -- that still wouldn't make YOUR god true

[JuniperLea]

19. You forgot string theory...

Which is about to lay waste to many ideas.

Evolution happens all the time... think about the mutation of viri...

Nice try though:)

:hi:

[laconicsax]

37. How can an unfalsifiable hypothesis that makes no testator predictions "lay waste" to something?

:shrug:

[Jim__]

22. More like check to humanity.

We don't know how to resolve the questions raised by a possibly exceedingly fine-tuned universe. We don't know what move to make. We don't even know if this is checkmate on our hopes to resolve the mysteries of existence. The question should at least make us a little humble.

[skepticscott]

23. The argument falls flat

when people assumes that the only possibly forms of matter and the only possible fundamental forces are the ones we know.

[rug]

24. Or can demonstrate.

[skepticscott]

31. Implicit in the argument itself

is the idea that a conscious being capable of deliberate action can exist without the need for "finely tuned" universal constants. It assumes that "god" (somehow, it's always pretty vague) came first, then made the arrangements to allow all of us to arise. But if a being like "god" could appear without the need for that fine tuning, there's no justification for excluding other possibilities, other than standard religious special pleading.

[uberllama42]

43. That is a brilliant refutation of the fine-tuning argument

I once spent the better part of an hour-and-a-half long class explaining why I think that argument is bogus. But all I needed was the first two sentences of your post. Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am.

[skepticscott]

44. Well, thank you

And yet it seems almost self-evident once you think of it....so much so, that it's hard to understand how the fine tuning argument still has any legs at all. Just like all of the rest of the "proofs" for "god".

[BlueJazz]

26. I'm convinced. Hallelujah! ...pass the wine and cake or wafer thing.

[Kali]

27. hahahahhahahahahaha

uh...you are kidding, right?

[valerief]

28. Teabagger logic is funny!

:rofl:

[MineralMan]

29. Use the Strong Force, Luke. Use the Strong Force.

:rofl:

[Sinistrous]

30. One thing is certain: if things were not the same,

they'd be different.

[DeSwiss]

32. "If any of these four forces were even slightly out of alignment, life would never have existed."

Baloney! Because we don't even understand why there is "life" with the alignment of the four forces that we now have! We just know that we do.

However, even if one were to assume that what you propose is true (which I do not - because your position does not take into consideration the possibility of life's existence in other dimensions - life which may actually be more conducive with those "slight realignments" of the forces that you mentioned), what does that have to do at all with the veracity (or lack thereof) of religion(s)?

Nothing.

Because those fairy tales would still be just a bunch of syncretistic, rerun, and/or ripped-off and modified stories and tales about the creation of the universe as seen through the limited intellect of Bronze Age prophets and seers.

Stories which are still illogical, and is accepted as "the truth" by so many -- only through the power of magical thinking......


You can "un-check" your mate Believer! ;)

[rrneck]

34. How do you use

the stuff of the universe to prove that something exists outside the universe? If it is outside the universe, it can't exist. And if it is in the universe, how could it create itself?

Where's that bong...?

[LAGC]

36. Ah, but you see, the multi-verse...

What if this universe that we can see and observe is but one of many more that we can't?

Who knows what kinds of highly-developed Higher Powers might lurk in other dimensions? ;)

[rrneck]

38. Gimie back my bong.

:rofl:

[ironbark]

39. Well before Pratchet created the Diskworld.....

"Lord Śiva said: My dear son, I, Lord Brahmā and the other devas, who rotate within this universe under the misconception of our greatness, cannot exhibit any power to compete with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for innumerable universes and their inhabitants come into existence and are annihilated by the simple direction of the Lord." (Bhagavata Purana 9.4.56)

Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (1149–1209), in dealing with his conception of physics and the physical world in his Matalib, "explores the notion of the existence of a multiverse in the context of his commentary" on the Qur'anic verse, "All praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds." He raises the question of whether the term "worlds" in this verse refers to "multiple worlds within this single universe or cosmos, or to many other universes or a multiverse beyond this known universe."
Wiki

[Deep13]

40. What evidence are you presenting to support that conclusion?

And how does something even more improbable than what you describe explain that improbability?

And is it really improbable? What was the range of alternative values for those things? The answer is we have no idea. We don't know why those values exist or what else is possible, so we certainly cannot claim to know how they got that way.

Anyway, life is the product of the universe as it really is. Ergo, we must necessarily find that universe suitable for life.

[laconicsax]

41. New NSC video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrX__ILDd3w

[cynatnite]

45. I don't think so...

To prove that God exists, he has to come down here off his throne or whatever, present himself to the entire world and declare that he is god. Then he has to prove that he is omnipotent and all that.

Alignment of forces is NOT proof.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

46. No one's covered this, so I'll give it a shot.

You are assuming that some aspect of the universe was made with humanity in specific, or life in general, in mind. Carl Sagan called this the "Anthropocentric Conceit." It was in evidence when we believed that the Earth was the center of the solar system, that man was designed by God, and that the sun was the center of the universe. All of these ideas hinged upon the assumption that the universe was designed in order to sustain human life, and they have all been disproved. Even though life, as we know it, would not be possible if the fundamental forces were much different, you are starting with the assumption that they are intentional provisions rather than happy accidents.

[GliderGuider]

47. To put it simply,

If the universe had a different structure things would have turned out differently. However, since it has this structure, this is what happened.

Now, let's just take Man out of the center of the picture and move him over to some random point within it where he belongs...

[cleanhippie]

49. You're joking, right?

[LAGC]

50. Yes, I was joking.

I would have thought I'd made that apparent on post #13, but I do enjoy all the thoughtful responses.

I think that even if there was a Higher Power (from another universe) that set these forces in motion to begin with, he's been pretty hands off since the beginning. So why bother to believe in it at all, let alone worship it?

I'm still an agnostic atheist. I don't believe, but I don't believe we'll ever be able to truly know either, as I don't think we'll be around long enough to be able to explore beyond the reaches of the known galaxy, let alone the known universe.

[cleanhippie]

51. Whew! While I appreciate sarcastic humor as much as the next person....

Too many people in this world might say exactly what you said, and MEAN it!

I would generally agree with your second statement, I think that even if there was a Higher Power (from another universe) that set these forces in motion to begin with, he's been pretty hands off since the beginning. So why bother to believe in it at all, let alone worship it?

[PanoramaIsland]

52. I've never found "fine-tuning" arguments convincing, and I don't now.

Nothing new here. Move along, folks...