"Mixed faith" weddings - as in Chelsea's-stir mixed feelings from both sides...NYT article -

[old mark]

Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/us/04interfaith.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=ig

The interesting thing for me is that my wife is Jewish, while I am not...I do enjoy the Jewish holidays, at least the few my wife and her family observe, and I understand more about Jewish religion and values than I did before.

To me, the important thing is that they seem very happy and they love each other-everything else can be worked out, and really is their own business...


mark

[Hawkeye-X]

1. I'm Jewish

I asked my mom in my teens if I could marry a non-Jewish person - she emphatically said NO. It has to be Jewish or not.

Fortunately I found my Jewish soulmate and I love her very, very much. I also love our product - my almost 18 month old son.

Someday he'll have a brother or sister within the next two years...

[still_one]

6. Sorry, but asking you Mom who you could marry seems somewhat outdated /nt

[Hawkeye-X]

15. I know that.

My views on religion is completely on the opposite end of my parents' views on religion - however, they do respect my views and will not do anything. In a compromise, I allow my son to be taken to the synagogue every Saturday (well, almost) to explore his faith at 18 months, but right now all he does is play. Natural for a toddler. We do have our usual Friday night dinners together for most of the year.

[still_one]

26. cool, hope I didn't across as brash because that wasn't my intention /nt

[Angry Dragon]

2. As long as some feel that gays should not marry

I feel it is time to make it against the law to marry someone outside your faith.

This would help strengthen family values







































:sarcasm: added for some people

[sabbat hunter]

4. Don't give the

Religous wingnuts any ideas. :p

[Angry Dragon]

12. They already hold those ideas

Just do not voice them much

[UndertheOcean]

3. Intermarriage is ALWAYS good , I think intermarriage between the Palestinians and Israelis is the

only long term solution for the I/P problem , as an example.

[no_hypocrisy]

5. I see the potential for stronger unions and stronger families with interfaith marriages.

Having children brought up with more than one religion and/or viewpoint teaches tolerance and acceptance.

[Silent3]

7. I think the ideal solution...

...is for both people to give up on religion entirely, then get married.

But that's just me. :evilgrin:

[Xithras]

8. As long as you know what you're getting into.

A good friend of mine, who is also a "Holiday Anglican", married a lovely woman about 10 years ago who was from an observant Mormon family. Not only did her entire family boycott her wedding (not a SINGLE relative showed up), but only one of her sisters has maintained any kind of relationship with her (she's from a family of six, and the other four siblings are uncommunicative). Her dad tried to maintain contact for a while, but she cut that off when he kept trying to set her up with other guys. They were refused a Temple wedding because he refused to convert, and Mormon's believe that weddings outside of the Temple aren't "real" in the eyes of God. The dad doesn't consider her to be married, and considers her current relationship to be adultery.

The hard thing for her was that she hadn't thought about it much beforehand. She knew her family would have objections, but genuinely didn't know they'd take it this far or for this long. Even the birth of their child failed to improve the relationship.

The other thing to think about is the potential impact of a later "strengthening" of religious beliefs. One of my college buddies, who is Jewish, married a Catholic girl right out of college. Neither thought it was a big deal, as neither of them attended church AT ALL. Shortly after the birth of their son, he "found" his faith again, decided that he wanted to raise his son Jewish, and began attending a synagogue regularly. She wasn't a religious person and wasn't comfortable with the idea of her children being "raised religious" (as she put it), and the rift eventually led to their divorce.

People of different faiths (and cultural backgrounds, for that matter, I also knew an Irish lady and a Pakistani man who ended very badly after he decided that he wanted to return to a more "traditional" Pakistani household style), should have an honest discussion about their religion and culture BEFORE marriage. That conversation should not just cover where they are NOW, but how they would feel if one or both of them eventually decided to reattach themselves to a more traditional religious or cultural belief system.

[enlightenment]

10. I believe your last paragraph is the most overlooked

factor in any decision to marry - an honest conversation.

Not just about religion and culture, either. About general expectations. About children, both having them, quantity, and styles of child-rearing. About how to handle finances. About how to resolve disputes. About every single sticky wicket that might - and probably will - come up.

Personally, I think there would be far fewer marriages if people really sat down with their potential spouse and went over the details BEFORE they jumped the broom. And far fewer broken marriages, too.

I know that some churches require people to fill out questionnaires and attend 'counseling' sessions before they marry, but I'm not sure it really helps, because it is required. By the time a couple has reached the booking the church part of the process, they've already made up their minds to go through with the deal - preparations have probably been going on for months. Having someone tell them they have to evaluate their suitability at that point is pretty much pissing in the wind. I've seen a number of couples go through the process - discover HUGE points of contention (like whether or not they want kids) - and still get married. It has to be self-directed and it should absolutely happen before they announce their intentions to the world.

[Xithras]

13. Few engaged couples are willing to do that.

I remember being floored once when I was talking to a young woman a month before her marriage. She was going on and on about what a great guy he was, but I noticed that she didn't talk much about the future. She was a student aide, and I already knew that she was wanting to pursue a career in the SF Bay Area. When she mentioned that her fiancee was studying forensics with plans on joining the FBI, I asked her how she was going to work out her career if he was assigned to another part of the country. "We haven't discussed that." That led to a whole line of other questions: Are you planning on having kids? "We haven't discussed that." Do you want kids? "Yes, three or four." How many does he want? "I have no idea." What did he say when you decided to keep your name? "I don't know, I haven't told him yet." I know you're an atheist, is he one too? "I don't know, we've never talked about religion." It wasn't a Q&A session, but she was my aide and these (and other) questions came up during a multi-hour conversation over grading papers. By the end, I was floored by how little she knew about the guy and what his aspirations were.

So I asked her, point blank, whether she thought it was a good idea to discuss these things BEFORE the wedding. Her answer? "Oh god no. We love each other, and we can work these things out later. If we talk about it now and I don't like the answers, it will just start a fight."

I personally think that this mindset is fairly common among young people. They don't WANT to talk about these things with their partners because they're in love. They know, instinctively, that a set of bad answers will doom a relationship and may force them to break up. Breakups, between people who love each other, are painful. So, instead of confronting their differences, they ignore them. In ten years, when the bloom is off the rose and the marriage has found its groove, those issues will invariably pop up again and create all sorts of problems that could have easily been avoided by a simple, honest conversation.

[enlightenment]

16. I agree - though I've seen older couples do it, too.

Even couples in which each partner has come out of a failed marriage. It is mind-boggling. I sometimes think that there must be some sort of switch (gene, whatever) that comes into play - sort of like the amnesia that strikes new mothers, causing them to forget the previous 40 weeks serving as room and board for a symbiote followed by hours of excruciating labor and immediately express not only love for the end-product, but a desire to have another one.

We humans are strange creatures.

[JerseygirlCT]

21. The pre-cana stuff that the RC required when I was married

(I'm an Episcopalian now), was nonsense. We sat through it, groaning, and just happy we'd found one that was only 1/2 day. Like some priest could talk to us about marriage? WTH did he know?

BUT, the priest who did marry us (along with my husband's family's rabbi) asked some good questions, and urged us to work through the answers. The talk we had with him was definitely worthwhile.

[Bitwit1234]

9. Regardless...of your religion...if you worship God

and really truly have a Christian feeling, what difference does it make which religion you belong to. Does each religion have their OWN GOD. If seems the republicans do, but their God, promotes war, discrimination, torture, and starvation. So we all know that we don't want to belong to that.

[Goblinmonger]

11. So a religious person shouldn't marry an atheist? n/t

[Xithras]

14. Not if they're a really religious person.

Being a religious person means, by definition, that you really believe in the trappings of your chosen religion. Faithful Christians, of any denomination, believe that atheists are going to hell (John 3:16). A marriage where one partner firmly believes that the other partner is bound for eternal damnation, or where one partner is constantly bombarded by the other partners insistence on living by the rules of an "amusing fairytale", will NOT be pleasant for either partner.

And what would you tell the kids? "Come on kids, it's Sunday and we have to go to church. You don't all want to burn in hell for eternity with mommy do you?"

[LAGC]

17. Well, its a good thing love trumps religious convictions.

I know of several non-believers who have married religious spouses. In some cases, they allow the kids to go to church, in others the religious spouse just worships in private without the organized get-together. But they seem to get along just fine.

I don't get this notion that both spouses have to be of the same faith (or lack thereof) to be compatible.

[Goblinmonger]

18. Not all Christians believe that atheists are going to hell.

So you are assuming that the atheist is a douchebag and won't respect the beliefs of the person they love?

Why not tell the kids that they need to figure things out on their own and here's a couple thoughts to get you started--Mommy believes this; Daddy doesn't? Why can't that work?

My wife believes in a god (not the traditional god of Christianity, but a supreme being a la Deists) and I'm a full blown atheist. Any problems in our relationship have never stemmed from those differences. And as for our kids? One is an atheist, the other is more of a Deist. All works well.

[Xithras]

19. Well...

Why not tell the kids that they need to figure things out on their own and here's a couple thoughts to get you started--Mommy believes this; Daddy doesn't? Why can't that work?

The discussion was about faithful Christians, not agnostics or deists. An agnostic or a deist can marry an atheist and have a marriage without problems. An atheist and a Baptist who attends services every Sunday and believes in the Gospel of John? Notsomuch. If you're actually a Christian (which has traditionally been defined as a person who believes that you can only access heaven through adherence to Christs teachings), you're not going to be happy with a bunch of atheist and agnostic children. It's not so much about religion as it is about an incompatibility of lifestyles. It's like a vegan marrying a butcher, or a teabagger marrying a NOW activist. If your fundamental belief systems and worldviews don't mesh, the marriage won't work.

BTW, just for the sake of disclosure, I haven't set foot in a church service in over a decade, and haven't regularly attended any church in more than 25 years.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. I think you might need to rework your definition of Christian

I would strenuously disagree with yours.

[JerseygirlCT]

23. Respect

that's what it comes down to. Respect for your spouse, respect for your spouse's beliefs. You don't have to share those beliefs, but you do have to respect your spouse and his/her choice.

My husband and I have certainly had disagreements about religion (specifically about the kids and their involvement), but bottom line is respect - my chosen church certainly doesn't teach any of the atheists (or anyone else) are going to hell nonsense. I wouldn't belong somewhere that encouraged that sort of thought. He's attended my family ceremonies; I've attended his (happily. Love a good bar mitzvah!) You don't have to share a belief (his family is Jewish -he's pretty much non-religious, but culturally Jewish), but you do have to be able to behave with respect.

I don't really see what's so hard about that idea for some people, you know?

[JerseygirlCT]

22. No, faithful Christians most emphatically do not believe that!

No. No. No.

[Xithras]

27. So you consider Jesus Christ to be a liar?

They were his words after all.

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference" (Romans 3:22).

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

Yes, Christians do believe that. All Christian faiths have traditionally taught that only Christians get into Heaven, because only those who believe in Christ and follow his Word (Romans 6:23) are going to be accepted. Other passages make it clear that "good works" alone aren't enough to cut it. You cannot simultaneously BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the Savior AND ignore His words. John 14:6 is pretty blunt about it...either you believe in Christ and accept his teachings, or you don't get into Heaven.

This is one of the primary reasons why I stopped attending Christian churches. I was raised in a highly religious household, but I eventually realized that Christianity is generally more about control than it is about faith.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. You do realize those are translations of translations of

memories written down well after the fact at best, right? Jesus showed us the way - that is, love one another. That's the way - but to paraphrase another bit of scripture - in my father's house there are many rooms. A loving God loves all creation - not only those who declare some sort of loyalty oath. Would you love one child more than another because one child claimed to love you best?

You can't believe that his words and teachings matter and then turn on the exclusivist stuff.

[PassingFair]

25. I'm a product of such a mixed marriage.

What my mother said was "Do you want to go to church
and get brunch out afterwards?"

NEVER, "We HAVE to go to church". And NEVER "You want to burn in hell?".

My father never said anything but "See you later", as he picked up the Sunday paper...

5 kids, all call ourselves atheist/agnostic.......

And my parents were very happily married until my Dad died, at age 65.

On Edit: My mother still loves my Dad, and believes that
she will see him in "heaven".

What ever gets her through the day.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. I think that it's something to be mindful of -

if at least one partner takes her/his religion somewhat seriously, there will be issues that really ought to be discussed before the marriage and absolutely before children.

But at the same time, I don't think it's really much of a roadblock so long as there is mutual respect and understanding. (And of course, you'd think those would be the primary thing in ANY marriage anyway, right?)

I was raised RC, and married a Jewish (though agnostic - sometimes passionately so!) man. When we talked about religion, it was important to me that the kids have one. Since he wasn't very interested in taking the lead in raising kids in his own family's faith, we agreed I would raise them in mine. It hasn't been without conflict. But it has worked. Fortunately for us, both families were quite welcoming of the other and the other's traditions - so that relieved another potential area of stress.

I'm guessing Chelsea and Marc share some of the most important values, even if they don't share a faith.

[TZ]

29. In my 90% Jewish family the attitudes have changed in just this generation

My mother was sent home from University of Colorado because she was getting serious about a non-Jewish boy--she came back to Cleveland and attended Case Western Reserve where she met my Jewish dad...... However alot of my cousins and both my sisters have married non-Jews so things HAVE changed for the better...

[onager]

30. Anybody remember Monica Lewinsky?

Nice Jewish girl who had a brief mixed affair with a Southern goy.

Some female columnist wrote a very good article about that affair (which of course I can't find now).

Aside from all the other factors - Lewinsky's idolizing, Clinton's general horndoggishness - she argued that these two would be naturally attracted to each other because in WASP America, both were The Other.

In certain segments of One Nation Under The Puritan Jebus - cough...BushFamilyandtheirilk...cough - it didn't matter that Bill Clinton became a Rhodes Scholar and Leader Of The Free World. He came out of the poor white Southern class, raised by a single Mom, no less.

So as far as the elites were concerned, Bill Clinton could always be neatly categorized as white trash cluttering up the White House. I think Barbara "Mama Lamia" Bush even made a few comments indicating as much.

The attitudes of many Americans toward Jews doesn't need any elaboration. But as one of my usual annoying digressions, I have to mention how much it makes me ROFL to see Fundies spouting the words "Judeo-Xian Heritage."

That "Judeo" part was only added after WWII. If you poke around in our National Archives, you can find reams of letters from Concerned Americans, written to FDR before WWII. Some were written in late 1938, right after the Kristallnacht in Germany. The general tone of those letters should make any American vomit, but they can be summed up as: The Christ-killers have got it coming to 'em.

This angle of "The Other" interested me because I'm a white Southerner who has lived for many years in Los Angeles (that liberal, egalitarian New Metropolis where Jews had to start their own country club because they were barred from the WASP establishments.)

Where I grew up, Jews (and Catholics) were about as common as Martians.

While I dismissed some of the sociological fluffernuttery in the article, I have to admit I've had quite a few Jewish girlfriends. And part of the attraction often DID seem to be that we were just so different from each other.

And yes, their mothers usually hated me...:evilgrin:

Anyway, just another of my usual time-wasting diatribes where I had a point to make, but forgot it and just wanted to throw the White Trash viewpoint into the mix.

[lazarus]

31. we're a mixed marriage

I'm a skeptic/atheist, and Haele is an animist. I don't mess with her rituals or altar, and she doesn't try to convince me of anything, and it all works out alright. She's mostly a skeptic, anyway; I think she's just holding onto the ritual aspect of things.

Ritual is very important to humans.

[PanoramaIsland]

32. DGAF. As a Jew, the clannish pressure to marry other Jews has always struck me as nationalistic BS.