Just found out a lot of my ancestors were Jewish.....

[Darth_Kitten]

Fascinating finding out new information.

No wonder my Catholic grandma told me she could understand some Yiddish. Both her father's parents were Jewish, and her mother's parents were Jewish (father) and Catholic (mother).

I find this so interesting. :)

[RandomThoughts]

1. I don't follow heredity.

It has some flaws, first it degrades women, it also makes people irrelevant.


If you believe that a heritage can make your life better or worse, then you fall into the trap of killing people of other heritage, or not caring about them.

It is an empathy breaker.

[stray cat]

3. How can heredity degrade women and make people irrelevant?

its our own corruption and bias that degrades not factual information or truth.

[RandomThoughts]

6. Its a long proof.

Short version. People believe it is through male lines, leading to female children being worth less within that concept.


I think I typed the proof for ancestor thought making people irrelevant already, not in the mood to type it again right now.

Basically if you can be punished or rewarded by someone other then your own actions, you are punished for someone elses actions, so either you have to have that same thing in you and it has to control you. Making yourself not relevant, or you have to be punished or rewarded for what you have no part in, making the individual irrelevant, and only the outcome of many generations relevant.

It is a despair doctrine.

[Bobbieo]

9. Huh!! My mother's Native hertiage is matrilineal. We women are the titleholders.

[RandomThoughts]

10. I do not agree with it, but some believe in things like ancestorial lines.

With gender specifics, that can lead to some hardships.

I don't follow the ancestor stuff as a defining part of character or your existence, but understand it more as learning from past generations, but do not think it should be only by blood lines.

[cleanhippie]

21. Dude, I really do want to understand you, I really, really do.

But I am just unable to comprehend a single thing you write.

[iris27]

26. What?

I'm not sure I follow at all. I started looking into my family tree on my maternal grandmother's side and have that one traced -- back through each mother -- further than any other line. I think it was the curiosity factor of "If we gave kids their mother's surname, what would mine be?" Thus far as I've been able to trace, it would be Aden, though obviously that would change if I get more information that lets me go further back. I am back to my great-great-great-great-grandmother, who came to America from Germany in 1860.

I also have no idea how curiousity about one's ancestors has any impact on my own choices. I am not close to most of my living family, largely because my life choices are so widely different from theirs. I have no doubt that they, not I, hew closer to any religious and societal values my ancestors would've held, but that doesn't mean their personalities have to control mine.

???

[virgogal]

4. My,oh my-----what a negative attitude.

[RandomThoughts]

11. How is it negative?

How many people do you know that make claims for themselves because of what someone else did?

How many people think they are better because of some heritage?

How many think someone else is worse because of some heritage?


I am not saying people should not have such traditions to remember past generations but it can, and has lead to some 'superiority' attitudes in some groups.

Not negative at all, just a simple fact that some groups use such things to define their existence instead of honoring the actions of past generations.

[struggle4progress]

13. um ... judaism is matrilineal

[RandomThoughts]

22. I was talking about all ancestorial doctrines.

Not Judaism specifically, some eastern doctrines have a male linage doctrine.


And actually Judaism is not hereditary by blood, there is a story, about someone having a child by a slave concubine, and also concepts of blessings from father determining inheritance, again removing from blood lines some of that stuff.

Even an odd story of deception to steal inheritance, maybe why so many stories have the peasant replacing the king story to them. I think that could be what that is about. Someone blind making a mistake on inheritance or something like that.

[laconicsax]

18. LOL Wut?

Heredity degrade women?
Heredity makes people irrelevant?

How exactly does you being your mother's child degrade women or make anyone irrelevant?
How exactly does my being related to a lawyer in California degrade womenor make anyone irrelevant?

Are you using "heredity" in place of other words that makes your post not ridiculous?

[RandomThoughts]

23. sigh, there are some cultures that think blood line is through males.

That has lead to some suffering for young girl children.

If you believe that linage or houses defines who you are, or if you should have or not have, then it makes the individual irrelevant, or existence unjust.

Long proof, not in the mood to type it now.

I am using heredity in the form that some think by ancestry they have more, or others should have less.

Considering the stuff I have seen in what is considered serious stuff, my posts can be ridiculous and fit in nicely anyways, although really it makes sense.

[laconicsax]

24. It's important to use the appropriate terms in discussion.

Some words you may want here are patriarchy, hereditary, patrilineal/patrilineage, inheritance, or primogeniture.

It sounds like English isn't your primary language. Heredity doesn't mean what you are trying to convey. I understand your point; heredity is the wrong word in this context. Hereditary and heredity, while similar, mean different things.

Consulting a dictionary and thesaurus might help you to find a more accurate term for what you mean in the future.

[TZ]

38. Umm understanding ones heritage is important for genetic reasons

Especially with many many DISEASES linked to your background. A heritage or genetics is just that. YOU are the one atttaching meaning to it and thats your OPINION.

[Historic NY]

2. Don't tell anyone but Jesus was also Jewish....

:hide:

[struggle4progress]

15. I think that's widely known. It is true the Nazis pushed a bunch of unfounded German theosophist

theories about Jesus being an "Aryan" who was much influenced by Buddhists, and that some of those crackpot nineteenth century theories therefore got a big boost in certain rightwing circles the first half of the twentieth century, surviving in rightwing racist "Christian" circles until today, but nobody of sound mind pays much attention to that crap

[laconicsax]

16. Are there any "founded" theosophist theories?

Unfounded theosophist theories is a bit redundant.

[struggle4progress]

17. Dunno. I tried reading some of that stuff thirty-five years ago and couldn't stomach it enough

to do much more than flip through the pages quickly and move on.

[laconicsax]

19. It's classic nonsense. n/t

[struggle4progress]

20. Could be. IIRC the folk who lent me the books were also enthusiasts for

colon cleansing coffee enemas as the key to long life and good health and so also simultaneously lent me a book or two on that topic. It's possible that reading the coffee colon cleansing theories permanently jaundiced me and that I did not give the other materials a fair and unprejudiced look-over

[laconicsax]

25. Did this happen in the 1870s?

I thought that kind of nuttery mostly died out by the early 20th century.

[struggle4progress]

33. As I recall it, the 20th century was a great time for Nutters of All Stripes

[no_hypocrisy]

5. Mazel Tov!

[Darth_Kitten]

30. Now, what does that mean?

heh heh.... :D

[dragonlady]

7. If you'd like to follow up your Jewish family's genealogy

check out http://jewishgen.org. There is a great deal of information and help there.

[iris27]

27. Cool, thanks!

I have one Jewish great-great-grandmother. This might help me out! :)

[Darth_Kitten]

29. Maybe I will check that out.......

:) Thanks!!

[applegrove]

8. Cool. Must be fun to find out stuff about your background.

[Darth_Kitten]

31. Wasn't looking for it, it just sort of found me.

But yes, it is interesting. I wonder what else can be found out? :)

[applegrove]

34. I found someone else's family tree that took my ancestors back to some american in the 1600s. It is

all sort of mystical isn't it?

[Darth_Kitten]

35. I can't wait to see what else unfolds.....

maybe I'll start doing a little investigating of my own. :)

[applegrove]

36. I onced look up a builder/architect ancestor of mine in the small town I was living in.

I found four houses he built including the one he lived in. Was really cool.

[Vehl]

12. Thats great news :)

Its awesome that you were able to trace your ancestry like this :thumbsup:

I'm of the belief that one needs find out as much as possible about one's ancestry. As someone who is fascinated by world history; i believe the more we know about our as well as others history, the more we will be able to realize the common threads that bind humanity together. :)

[Darth_Kitten]

28. My sister, did.....with some help from a distant relative....

So far, found out some information on my maternal grandmother's grandparents.
Great-grandpa was Jewish (both his parents were) and Great-grandma was Catholic (Catholic mother and Jewish father). Don't know yet if Great grandpa converted to Catholicism, but my grandma was raised as a Catholic and the extended family were. I wasn't raised with any particular faith.

My sister mentioned something about my great grandparents converting to Catholicism when they came to the "new country" just after 1900. They originally settled in Cincinnati, but went back to Hungary, and then years later settled in Canada.
My great, great grandpa was born in Alsace-Lorraine, but must have left after Jewish shops were destroyed (Franco-Prussian War 1870?) as great grandpa was born in Hungary in 1879.

Would love to know about my maternal grandfather's side as well. There's more of a mystery there. All we know is my grandpa was raised by his grandparents and came to Canada.

I only have bits and pieces of my father's ancestry, but that's I'm sure ANOTHER story.

[Raschel]

14. Were there people who weren't Jewish that spoke Yiddish, or listed Yiddish as their language?

For instance in Eastern European countries? Anyone know?

[Darth_Kitten]

32. I don't know.....

All I remember is my Grandma telling me she understood some Yiddish. Maybe her father taught her. :)

[Bad Thoughts]

37. Yiddish is a Germanic language

... with a heavy influx of Hebrew words. Other speakers of Germanic languages could understand and converse with Yiddish speakers on many common subjects. Of course, in many places in Eastern Europe German would have been spoken by only a few--Prussian and Habsburg officials as well as intellectuals. Conversely, many German Jews, who wanted to appear assimilated, might have the same difficulties with Yiddish that an ordinary German would have. But Yiddish wouldn't have be studied as an independent language until the mid-20th century, after the destruction of Jewish communities of Europe imperiled the language. And probably no one who was not Jewish in Europe would have admitted to being able to speak Yiddish. If someone said that they could understand (not speak) Yiddish, I would take it more as evidence that a person lived and interacted with Jews than being Jewish themselves.

BTW, congratulations on uncovering your roots. Finding your family's Jewishness may prove to be a complicated, but ultimately enlightening, process. It's not as simple as studying who Jews were and what they believed, but unraveling how they related to European society. You might find some good background in Marion Kaplan (Making of the Jewish Middle Class--actually a great book about women and family in Europe in general) and The Renaissance of Jewish Culture in Weimar Germany by Brenner.

[Darth_Kitten]

41. Thanks for this information.

It's been years, but I remember my grandmother telling me she understood Yiddish (I'm about 90 percent sure, or was it Hebrew?) and my sister has the same recollection. I myself wasn't raised in any particular faith.

I'll maybe look up those books. I'm still intrigued by these findings. :)

[dimbear]

46. It goes without saying that Yiddish

is a slight alteration of the German word for "Jewish." Of course that doesn't directly answer the question.

More exotic and less well known: Ladino, more or less the Spanish version of Yiddish. As it were. There are others.

[Bad Thoughts]

48. Linguistic Complexity

There are others.
True. Even Yiddish is a blanket for a whole variety of fusions of German dialects, which are so numerous, with Jewish culture. The OP's paternal family would have spoken Judeo-Alsatian, which would be associated with Alsatian German (Elsässisch), and some Jews (notbaly Claude Vigée and Nathan Katz) have contributed heavily to the preservation of Alsatian dialects.

[TZ]

39. I would suspect your family became "Catholic" around WW2

It was a VERY common thing to avoid the Nazi's for many Jewish families to deny their heritage and act Catholic. Its not a bad thing, its how many people survived. Its why so often "Catholic" people suddenly find this Jewish heritage...From Germany or Austria your family?

[Darth_Kitten]

40. No, actually, around 1900..........

if I'm reading my sister's posts correctly.

My great, great grandfather was Jewish and had his shop destroyed in Alsace-Lorraine (around 1870).

Great grandpa married Great grandma, who had a Jewish father and Catholic mother, around 1900. Kids started coming in 1905, etc.

My sister mentioned that until my great-great grandmother married into the family, this family line was mainly Jewish.

We are mostly Hungarians with some German. (I'm going by some of the new names) :)

[Bad Thoughts]

42. Have any more information?

Was your great-gradfather's family in Strasbourg (it was heavily bombed in the Franco-Prussian War)?
Do you know if they "immigrated" to France after annexation, or did they remain in German Alsace? Could you (without revealing your identity) reveal some of their surnames?

[Darth_Kitten]

43. Yes, here are the names.....

I'm curious as to what happened after 1870....Great,great grandpa was born in Alsace-Lorraine. Great-grandpa Mayer was born in Hungary in 1879, so there was some migration on the family's part.

Family names: Remsing,Dankov,Mayer,Jacobs (formerly Jacobi)

Thanks for your interest. :)

[Bad Thoughts]

44. No easy information, sorry

With the exception of Remsing, those are common names, and it would be difficult to get information without being able to localize the families more. What's making it complicated is that they are in geographical limbos. First, Hungary was not the country of today, but a much larger kingdom. Having a Hungarian passport wouldn't indicate ethnicity (or nationality, as we would think of it). THey could have been anywhere from Poland, the Balkans, or Ukraine. Second, Alsace-Lorraine didn't exist until 1871. It was made from parts of France that German states had conquered: the two departments of Alsace (Lower Rhine and Upper Rhine) and one from the old Duchy of Lorraine (most of Moselle). Running between Alsace and Lorraine was the Vosges mountains, an impediment to easy movement. Both sides had large Jewish communities, but the the Jews of Lorraine did not interact as often or as directly with the Jews of Alsace as one might expect from neighbors. If you have a passport that shows place of origin being "Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen", then the family remained for some time in Germany after annexation. From what I can tell, the surname Remsing appears much more in Lorraine than in Alsace. However, if the family said they were from A-L, I would suspect that they were Alsatians (Lorrains complained about being subsumed under Alsace).

How to explain their conversion might be a bit dicey too. Jews didn't generally convert to Catholicism. Indeed, they didn't tend to convert for spiritual reasons. More often than not, someone in Germany who was more "Enlightened" and "assimilated" became indifferent to religion, and conversion was a way to find professional and social advancement. The Christian who stayed home on Sunday morning was once the Jew who stayed home on Friday night. French Jews enjoyed full access to public life, although antisemitism could run higher until well after the Dreyfus Affair. There was not reason for conversion. In both countries, civil marriage was required after 1880--no one would have needed to convert in order to marry. However, conversion to Catholicism would have been a step down in Germany. At the universities the faculties could be more intolerant of Catholics than Jews. It could be that the Jewish members accepted Catholicism in the household, which was then transmitted. Of course, all that could have changed once they immigrated to the US.

[Darth_Kitten]

45. Thanks for this information....

They did come to the U.S. (Cincinatti) as my Great Aunt was born there in 1905.
They went back to Hungary, and in the 1920's came to Canada.

I'm just getting bits and pieces of information, but would so love to get more.
Thanks for providing the historical background, as it's all so new to me.

:)

[dimbear]

47. The odds are incredibly high that if you consider yourself white,

you have Jewish ancestors. While the Jews now are a tiny group, in the days of the Roman Empire they are estimated to have been 20% of the empire's population, and very widespread.

Of course population figures from back that far are guessy at best, but there you go! Just the reason you needed to celebrate Christmas at a Chinese restaurant.